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Ocn's questions on TDM editing.


ocn
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... Because very small grids (0.125 and 0.25) don't work properly in game.

 

Oh, really? Does this apply to objects as well? Because I sometimes find I have to go that low to place things properly.:unsure:

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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Go ahead and use the tiny grid for models and entities. That's OK. You can be really creative when the grid is that small, when you're placing stacks of coins, or mushrooms, etc.

 

But you shouldn't have to use a grid smaller than 4 for worldspawn. Using a larger grid on that basic "shell" of the map ensures that you won't worry about leaks. :)

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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Go ahead and use the tiny grid for models and entities. That's OK. You can be really creative when the grid is that small, when you're placing stacks of coins, or mushrooms, etc.

 

 

I often find I simply have to, after all there is No Honor Among Thieves.;) Those coin stacks seem to attract a lot of unwanted attention from the shadows... But that could just be my imagination playing tricks on me.

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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EDIT: But it says: "Will NOT seal against the void." So if I wanted a rounded ceiling I would have to place a regular brush above (aligned with the walls) to do the actual sealing, right? (a lot of ceilings here, but different with meanings).

Yes. If in doubt you can use the menu > filter > all entities and patches so you can see there's just worldspawn sealing the void. The same for the surrounding of visportals.
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@nbohr1more:

 

I've found during the development of my ASE plugins that the use of ASE within TDM is virtually the same as LWO. Although the ASE format supports smoothing groups id Tech 4 appears to ignore them. Seams can only be controlled via unwelding vertices or UV mapping.

 

The good news is your post reminded me to correct the documentation on modwiki so if anything it is a little more accurate now.

 

On a side note, I don't consider smoothing groups to be very useful anymore. I think the idea was that you could control smoothing without additional vertices. But geometric density has increased so drastically over the years you have to wonder if a few vertices here or there make a difference.

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Thanks Rich!

 

If I understand correctly, smoothing groups essentially use their geometric relationship to one another to enhance the accuracy of the Vertex positioning in a scheme somewhat akin to AA sampling (or, more apt, "cubemap normalization").

 

It would be interesting to know the ballpark percentage for how many vertices that method saves but I suppose it's all academic (and GPL will grant Doom 3 modders better things to enhance than "fixing smoothing group support" anyway...)

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Go ahead and use the tiny grid for models and entities. That's OK. You can be really creative when the grid is that small, when you're placing stacks of coins, or mushrooms, etc.

 

But you shouldn't have to use a grid smaller than 4 for worldspawn. Using a larger grid on that basic "shell" of the map ensures that you won't worry about leaks. :)

 

Also, remember, if you build very thin walls (Sorry, can't tell exact numbers, but less than one grid 4 unit), then either objects might travel through the world (I had a testmap where you could shoot arrows through the outer wall), or the player might frob items/levers/switches through the backside of the wall. (The latter can later be worked around with nofrob zones/objects, but it is cumbersome). So also give interiour walls a realistic thickness, don't just make them a finger thick :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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EDIT: But it says: "Will NOT seal against the void." So if I wanted a rounded ceiling I would have to place a regular brush above (aligned with the walls) to do the actual sealing, right? (a lot of ceilings here, but different with meanings).

 

Yes, patches do not seal against the void. You always need to put normal brushes to isolate your map from the world.

 

Also note that the AI does not know patches exist, but will still bump on them or walk on them. If you patch is in the ceiling, no matter. But if it is in the reach of AI, then you need to monsterclip.

 

Here's an example of a patch vault:

462px-Caulk_image2.png

Note how the ceiling hidden by the vault is caulked? It is because the vault touches the ceiling brush at its highest point. If there was no caulk, the brush texture would cause sparkling in the highest point of the vault due to z-fighting.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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If there was no caulk, the brush texture would cause sparkling in the highest point of the vault due to z-fighting.

 

Conveniently, this also means that you can make caulk clones on top of any kind of sealing geometry, make all that geometry func_static, and give it any spawnargs you will. I've done this with almost an entire wing of my mansion on the exterior walls. the caulk seals, but the textured brushes are what shows to the player.

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Thanks for all the answers.:)

 

As I have been into Dromed in the past, I'm also a little stuck in that world with regards to how it all worked. I can't find any reference to dangers building around the 0,0,0 point within Dark Radiant so I'm guessing it's Ok. Is that a right assumption? And what about a blue room? Can't find much info on that either.

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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Thanks for all the answers.:)

 

As I have been into Dromed in the past, I'm also a little stuck in that world with regards to how it all worked. I can't find any reference to dangers building around the 0,0,0 point within Dark Radiant so I'm guessing it's Ok. Is that a right assumption? And what about a blue room? Can't find much info on that either.

 

I do not know anything about such dangers, and I've managed to build many missions so far.. I guess there is no dangers.

 

Blue rooms can be placed anywhere you like. Just remember that if you have a room which does not contain anything, the room will be optimized away. If your room contains models of func_statics it works like it should. I've used such rooms to teleport objects and AI's into the actual mission.

 

For AI's remember that the engine does not generate path-finding information for areas that any AI cannot access and where no AI's exist. This is good for optimization purposes: unaccessible roof do not need path-finding data. But this means also if you have a separate location in which no AI's cannot go, and you teleport an AI in that room later, the AI cannot move since there is no path-finding there.

 

You can get around this by having the AI in the room when map starts (path-finding is generated), then teleport the AI out and then teleport the AI back in the location when you want.

 

If the location is such that some AI's can get there, it will have path-finding info.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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0,0,0 is no longer a danger, as it was in Dromed.

 

A "blue room" is just any box where you put entities the player doesn't need to see. You use it to hide the secret inner workings of your map. A good example is the prefab "darkmod\prefabs\misc\StartObjectives,Shop,Tools,Ammo.pfb".

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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You can get around this by having the AI in the room when map starts (path-finding is generated), then teleport the AI out and then teleport the AI back in the location when you want.

 

If the location is such that some AI's can get there, it will have path-finding info.

 

There are "aas##_flood" entities to do this for you. No goofy "teleporting" required.

 

The only other way to optimize away pathfinding data is to cover it with brushes textured with "common/monsterclip. This is what you would do to rooftops, around models and func_statics, and other inaccessible places.

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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There are "aas##_flood" entities to do this for you. No goofy "teleporting" required.

 

The only other way to optimize away pathfinding data is to cover it with brushes textured with "common/monsterclip. This is what you would do to rooftops, around models and func_statics, and other inaccessible places.

 

Hm.. Good to know about aas_flood entities.

 

But if unaccessible areas do not get path-finding, shouldn't monsterclipping such areas be useless?

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Hm.. Good to know about aas_flood entities.

 

But if unaccessible areas do not get path-finding, shouldn't monsterclipping such areas be useless?

 

Inaccessible would mean "entirely cut off by solid walls on all sides", yes, then there's no pathfinding generated. Rooftops and even the 3d skybox will get an AAS grid generated unless you put monsterclip over it.

 

But don't agonize over monsterclipping. That's one of the very last things I optimize, and it's easiest to do as one of the last steps.

yay seuss crease touss dome in ouss nose tair

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Inaccessible would mean "entirely cut off by solid walls on all sides", yes, then there's no pathfinding generated. Rooftops and even the 3d skybox will get an AAS grid generated unless you put monsterclip over it.

 

Really? If I have an AI, who is on ground and I teleport him on a rooftop I can check whether the area has path-finding or not. If the AI cannot move, then there is no path-finding on the roof. Then monsterclipping would be unnecessary.

 

Gotta test this, I'm curious. The reason is, in Beleaguered fence, the crypt area did not have path-finding at all, and it was connected the the main map with AI's via a vertical tunnel (no AI access, but physically accessible). I had to do the goofy teleport trick, since I didn't know about AAS_floods. :D

 

EDIT: Yeah, looks like you were right. Rooftops do generate path-finding. I still don't know what was with beleaguered, though.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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...

Also note that the AI does not know patches exist, but will still bump on them or walk on them. If you patch is in the ceiling, no matter. But if it is in the reach of AI, then you need to monsterclip.

 

 

 

What if patches are used to make an uneven ground? Would that bring about any AI based issues if they can indeed walk upon them- but if they're on the ground I can't monsterclip them.

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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why not? i think monster-clipping is the way to go..ramps for slope parts, and stairlike monsterclip brushes for steep parts. big blocks for unpassable parts. But i am not sure about that but i seem to remember it should be done like that.

 

My post may have been a little unclear. Isn't monsterclipping used to keep NPCs away from certain areas? I can't monsterclip the ground as I would want AIs to walk upon it. But since AIs are not "aware" of patches I just wondered if that would cause any problems at some point.

 

EDIT: It seems to work ok. The pagan wouldn't move at all (but that could be some other issue), but the guard chased me like mad.

Edited by ocn

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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My post may have been a little unclear. Isn't monsterclipping used to keep NPCs away from certain areas? I can't monsterclip the ground as I would want AIs to walk upon it. But since AIs are not "aware" of patches I just wondered if that would cause any problems at some point.

 

If you make a patch to make uneven ground it will work just fine if the void-insulating brush underneath the patch isn't too far away. I do not remember the units, but you'll be fine if the brushwork underneath crudely follow the patch. And the AI will walk on the patch, not the underlying brush.

 

And monsterclip is just a brush which is non-solid to everything except AI. You could make a monsterclip stairs so that your ruffian AI can "jump" (run) over a table and attack the player. All you need to have is a MC brush which covers the table and then few stair-like ones, with which the AI can walk on the table.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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...

And monsterclip is just a brush which is non-solid to everything except AI. You could make a monsterclip stairs so that your ruffian AI can "jump" (run) over a table and attack the player. All you need to have is a MC brush which covers the table and then few stair-like ones, with which the AI can walk on the table.

 

Ooh! Right.... I thought it excluded that particular area from the AI pathfinding completely. Like that patch of the world didn't exist at all to them.:blush:

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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0,0,0 is no longer a danger, as it was in Dromed.

 

A "blue room" is just any box where you put entities the player doesn't need to see. You use it to hide the secret inner workings of your map. A good example is the prefab "darkmod\prefabs\misc\ StartObjectives,Shop,Tools,Ammo.pfb".

 

There is no prefab folder in my TDM installation. I just get an error when I try to import one.

 

EDIT: Wow! This is getting really embarrasing now... I had to unzip something first... Think I'll get some sleep before posting any more questions.:(

Edited by ocn

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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