How do you play TDM

[Sir Taffsalot]

I usually knock everyone out. I like being able to explore the entirety of the map without being disturbed. Saying that if a map forces me to ghost and it isn't too difficult I dont mind. I do find ghosting to be more rewawding. Sometimes I iron man an FM but never on first playthrough. I also never kill anyone unless an objective requires me to do so.

[Sotha]

No save + ghost. However, that is not mandatory. I may KO some individuals who are too troublesome or in my way otherwise. Kills are also permitted if everything goes to hell, but I'd rather escape. I might also save if I see that there is some perilous jumping up or other insta-kill situations ahead. My rules are not that strict.

 

Not saving brings the game totally to a new level in challenge and excitement. Somehow I get ulcers from those let's play videos, where the player constantly reloads, reloads and reloads. They are missing so many interesting situations!

[Oldjim]

I normally ghost but knock out if they are being a real pest

I do use quick save because I normally can't be bothered to go back and replay everything

One thing I do use the save for is where I am trying something tricky such as trying to get some loot on a table where there are persons sitting - one where I did that was in The Builders Roads when I was trying different options for getting all the loot downstairs in the Inn

[Bikerdude]

I only knock out Ai that are problematic, otherwise I try to ghost the place.

[Springheel]

I try to ghost until it becomes inconvenient.

 

I find myself holding back on using tools sometimes because it makes things too easy...I prefer maps that are hard enough that I feel _forced_ to use my equipment, and situations where I don't KO guards because it would be too risky, rather than not KOing the guard standing in the dark with his back to me because it would make the map too easy.

 

I generally reload when I'm caught for something that I don't think was my fault (pressed the wrong key, hit a low beam during a KO, etc) but otherwise I try to play it out; I can't stand it when people reload every time they miss with a water arrow.

[simplen00b]

KO everyone, quick save & load as often as I remember/need to. If I get busted I'll try to run & hide - I'm useless with the sword - but that doesn't work too often (certainly not as often as it did in TDS ). Forced ghosting I usually find unenjoyably tense - Obsttorte's two missions are the only exceptions I can think of.

 

Usually play on 'Easy' first time round, but will look at the medium/advanced objectives and try to achieve them if possible.

 

Never kill unless someone's a total pain or an undead. Undead I will happily spend ages clearing out of the way if possible. Can't stand them even being around.

I can't stand it when people reload every time they miss with a water arrow.

Don't usually miss with water arrows (he bragged) but I nearly always quicksave before firing a rope arrow. Got into the habit playing T1/2 FMs when I'd often make a mess of it (wrong angle usually), and never got out of it.

[Sir Taffsalot]

Not saving brings the game totally to a new level in challenge and excitement. Somehow I get ulcers from those let's play videos, where the player constantly reloads, reloads and reloads. They are missing so many interesting situations!

 

OK you've convinced me. The next 2 or 3 TDM FMs I play I shall make a solid effort to ghost. I haven't played Obsttortes FM yet and I believe you have to ghost that one anyway.

 

To the people who voted "other" how else do you play TDM? I'd be interested to know.

[SeriousToni]

I voted for blackjacking. Because I blackjack them mostly

 

I only load when I'm dead or I made somethign really wrong - otherwise I run away and hide. Killing is a thing I don't do - only if it's a mission objective.

If I have enough time I even ghost a mission.

 

But mostly I do black jacking ^^

[Sotha]

OK you've convinced me. The next 2 or 3 TDM FMs I play I shall make a solid effort to ghost.

 

But in the quote I'm talking about iron man gameplay, not ghosting.

 

If you DO try ironman, remember to tune your approach and use more tools. You really gotta minimize the risks and pay attention, not just run across the lit yard, hoping not to be detected.

[Springheel]

Don't usually miss with water arrows (he bragged) but I nearly always quicksave before firing a rope arrow.

 

I should clarify that I don't have a problem with people reloading for missing with arrows when it isn't really their fault...like a beam that looks like it should be wood but turns out not to be, or when you hit a light dead-on but it doesn't go out.

 

If you DO try ironman, remember to tune your approach and use more tools. You really gotta minimize the risks and pay attention, not just run across the lit yard, hoping not to be detected.

 

I really like the concept of iron-manning it, but I think I would get very frustrated if I got busted or stuck because of something I couldn't control, like getting trapped on geometry or finding out at the last minute a candle can't be pinched out.

[Obsttorte]

I usually try ghosting a mission, too. At least the short ones. I don't do this because I think it is "the way it's meant to be played". The reason is that especially in small missions it can happen that after some knockouts or kills you find yourself in an empty place. Bye,bye immersion.

 

I'm not against killing (in the game). I do it if it seems to be fastest approach or if would be hard getting into the guards back.

 

Iron-manning and ghosting large mission is something I would never try as it would be just frustrating to me. I once tried iron-manning the Swing ... that went bad.

[RPGista]

My playstyle is a mix of reckless action and what some would call ghosting - I save very rarely, so there's also a bit of "ironmanning". I like to play fast, I have no problems creating confusion to derail AI patrols, I often run instead of sneaking and will not care if AI gets suspicious or even alerted, as long as I can continue moving on. At the same time, I never remember to use any tools to help me (play with basic stuff, sword, steelheads, lockpicks), I never put out any lights (just makes it too easy), will only KO or ambush people if necessary (not a moral thing, taking out too many AI will simply make it too easy), and dont usually make a mess or move stuff around. Because of all this, my favourite missions are those which allow you to do whatever you want (no forced ghosting please) and offer a solid AI network to make things harder for you (and great story of course).

[Springheel]

I never put out any lights (just makes it too easy), will only KO or ambush people if necessary (not a moral thing, taking out too many AI will simply make it too easy

 

I generally agree with you, but this is the kind of thing that bugs me. Holding back on KOing or using tools is essentially admitting that the game isn't hard enough, IMO. It's like we have to play with one hand tied behind our back because otherwise it's no fun. In my perfect world, the AI would be challenging enough that you would HAVE to use equipment just to have any chance of succeeding.

 

Our trend of late has been to make things less difficult and more forgiving to encourage newcomers, which is a worthy goal, but there is a down side.

[Baddcog]

I typically try to ghost but am not too serious about it. If I get busted I generally try to get away, if it turns to a killing situation I usually reload and try to redo it without it going that far.

 

Also try to use as few items as possible. That's why I'd rather pick up items or buy them in store. Hate having to dump things like flashbombs that I never use.

 

Even though I try to ghost I don't like being forced to. The more things that force the player into a play style or reloads is bad imo. Those objectives are fine and can add more to game play, but they should be optional. If you fail but want to pass you can reload on your own. Don't need to game to end and force you to retry.

[Obsttorte]

I generally agree with you, but this is the kind of thing that bugs me. Holding back on KOing or using tools is essentially admitting that the game isn't hard enough, IMO. It's like we have to play with one hand tied behind our back because otherwise it's no fun. In my perfect world, the AI would be challenging enough that you would HAVE to use equipment just to have any chance of succeeding.

 

Our trend of late has been to make things less difficult and more forgiving to encourage newcomers, which is a worthy goal, but there is a down side.

I think that is what the difficulty levels are for. Unfortunately most mappers does not choose to make their missions very hard on the highest difficulty setting. But this is very subjective.

[GameDevGoro]

* Knock out people who are in my way / deserve it.

* Save/Load when in tough spot.

* Kill if cannot knock out and are in my way / deserve it.

* Sometimes I like to ghost specific parts of a mission, but this is often because I feel like taking my sweet time.

 

Pretty much like I play Thief... Or games with stealth whatsoever.

 

... "deserve it" is very vague, isn't it. But basically if the story points out a specific jerk- he will suffer by my hand.

[nbohr1more]

I try to Iron Man. But I usually need at least a few saves to finish a mission.

 

I KO a lot because I like finding places to stash those guards... but I wont usually clear the map.

[Professor Paul1290]

I try to ghost and avoid reloading any saves most of the time, but I consider not reloading a save and avoiding being detected more important than the ghosting so I'll knock somebody out if I don't think I can make it past them well.

 

The way I usually try to guess whether or not I should knock out somebody or otherwise break my ghosting run is I ask myself "Do I feel like I can do this 10 times in a row without a mistake?". If the answer is "no" then I'll knock somebody out or try to go for a different solution.

 

It's a pretty nice litmus test in general as it cuts down on a lot on the little careless mistakes that break iron man runs.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Professor Paul1290

[Springheel]

In my perfect world, the AI would be challenging enough that you would HAVE to use equipment just to have any chance of succeeding.

 

I think that is what the difficulty levels are for.

 

Maybe, but that's not how they're being used. Most Expert objectives include a "don't kill" or "don't be seen" objective, which is essentially just forcing "reload if caught" type play.

 

Originally we had planned on implementing difficulty sliders in the main menu, so people could tailor how smart and aware the AI are. We never got further than implementing them for combat though.

[Obsttorte]

Most Expert objectives include a "don't kill" or "don't be seen" objective, which is essentially just forcing "reload if caught" type play.

Actually this would only apply to the last objective type as the player has full control whether or not he kill someone.

 

I noticed that some players were mentioning that the difficulty was very high in my first FM but in the same sentence they state that they played on the highest difficulty level. So the situation is a bit weird. IMHO most FM's are not really hard. I'm not sure it is because the mappers don't want them to be or they are just unsure how to achieve that without getting the players frustrated.

 

Personally I prefer FM's were the difficulty is a bit too high instead of those were it is opposite. So maybe it would be a good advice to reserve the highest difficulty for those specific players.

 

RE challenging AI: The only problem I have with the AI in reference to challenge is the fact that you are unseen when in complete darkness, even if the AI is already alerted. This in addition to most FM's using the "every five meters you'll find some shadows to hide" approach (this is a bit exeggarated) makes it quite easy to beat the AI. If there should ever be changes to make them more challenging (I don't think so, but who knows) it may be already a big push if

• AI can see the player even in complete darkness if alerted and close enough
  
• the visibility of the player increases when he is moving (maybe that is already in there, if so the effect could be enhanced)
  
• give the AI a "sense" for the player, so if he is sneaking in from behind he only has a short amount of time to KO the guard or whatever before the AI reacts
  
• give the AI the possibility to grab torches hanging around to light out the place (or make it possible to let them carry an extinguished one that they light when getting alerted)
  
• dogs (that would be really cool)
  

Well, just my two cents of course. But I guess the more possibilities the AI gets, the more has the player to use his own.

 

EDIT:

In my perfect world, the AI would be challenging enough that you would HAVE to use equipment just to have any chance of succeeding.

Some people may than feel forced to a "using my tools" type play.

[Springheel]

Actually this would only apply to the last objective type as the player has full control whether or not he kill someone.

 

Well, in many cases that's true, but if the player is caught at close range or chased into a corner, they don't have a lot of options if they're not allowed to kill.

 

Personally I prefer FM's were the difficulty is a bit too high instead of those were it is opposite. So maybe it would be a good advice to reserve the highest difficulty for those specific players

 

Yes, I agree. In my mission, I gave the AI better hearing on the highest difficulty, and increased the number of lights that AI would relight.

 

Though ironically I often find myself playing missions on Medium difficulty because I hate loot hunts.

• AI can see the player even in complete darkness if alerted and close enough

I would agree, though this can be achieved by the mapper raising the ambient light level.

 

the visibility of the player increases when he is moving (maybe that is already in there, if so the effect could be enhanced)

 

Agreed. I've actually brought this up before in the developer's forums. The effect is there, but it's too subtle IMO, and has no impact on the player when the lightgem is already dark.

[RPGista]

Yes, I agree. In my mission, I gave the AI better hearing on the highest difficulty, and increased the number of lights that AI would relight.

 

Yes, like in Springheel's case, it IS possible to make AI more challenging at the mission making level (even though that is a solution that is both work intensive and, in my experience, hard to find a balance for, gameplay wise). You can define how well an AI fights, their acuity levels (several parameters) - that is actually a great way of making the mission more organic, diferentiating the characters from each other, making them more unique (as well as challenging). On a side note, I wish you could go even further and change walking/running speeds, melee speed and damage, etc. But thats for another topic.

 

Like discussed before, taking out any given AI is simple, the fun part comes from breaking a tough, well patrolled "checkpoint" (like the courtyard in Heart of Lone Salvation), getting past those. Thats why AI should generally have backup in the form of a patrolling partner, being in tight groups, etc.

[Obsttorte]

Well, actually you can change the movement speed of AI. Don't know if this is also true for attack speed. I think the damage an attack makes is defined in some def files, so this may also be changed easely, but I'm not sure about this as I have never tried it.

[Springheel]

On a side note, I wish you could go even further and change walking/running speeds, melee speed and damage, etc. But thats for another topic.

 

You can change all those things if you wish. In fact, there are specific spawnargs for setting combat skill level. The speed of any animation can also be changed using the animation_rate spawnarg. Can't remember the exact syntax atm.

 

This article might help:

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=How_to_Make_Your_AI_Unique

[Baddcog]

Problem with ai changes on a map to map basis are the same they were with t2... Nobody expects it. You get used to how the game plays and it should always be this way.

 

There are things mappers can do to make their maps more challenging without changing core gameplay.

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I think people have grown used to playing on expert because they like the higher loot, all objectives, etc.. typically that's how difficulty levels change. (and no kill, no ko, etc..)

There's also ego... "I've played for too long NOT to play on expert', but I don't like forced ghost so I avoid it and have to drop down to an easier diff...

 

 

The author can add more ai, more lights, lights that can't be put out, fewer tools, blocked routes, etc...

 

it always sucked playing a map in T2 where a guard is lighting quick and gets you by surprise and you can't get away.

 

TDM ai CAN see you in the dark if they are alerted, but were purposely programmed to be able to loose sight of you. Run around a corner, find somewhere to hole up, if they can't see you then they stop and search. It would suck if this mechanism didn't exist. Then you'd HAVE to fight them. And if you're playing on expert there's a good chance you'll run around the corner into another AI anyway.

 

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IMO we need to encourage good mapping practices to make difficulties harder rather than encouraging changing core game play. this also goes with objectives and making them more fun for the player (not the author). forcing ghost or no kills might be how YOU like to play but what about everyone else. An optional objective gives the best of both worlds, it lets you know that there is a challenge to try, and it lets you know if you fail, but it doesn't force you to play in the authors style.

 

Forced ghosting makes a map harder, it also makes reloads more frequent (and or forced). it also makes players play on easier settings (and miss other difficulty settings/objectives) because they are avoiding playing a forced ghost.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree. In my mission, I gave the AI better hearing on the highest difficulty, and increased the number of lights that AI would relight.

 

• 
  

I would agree, though this can be achieved by the mapper raising the ambient light level.

 

 

 

 

--Yeah, that map was fairly difficult to sneak around in.

Ambient doesn't effect AI does it? I thought it was soley so the player could see, no effect on light gem.