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Thief 4 is trash.


Mystry

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Daniel Windfeld Schmidt: If Garrett went swimming, he would probably freeze to death. Pneumonia is no laughing matter in a world without antibiotics.

 

Right. But sneaking through the pouring rain, visible in the latest batch of screenshots, is completely different because.....

 

 

so water wasn't a big theme for us. It exists mostly as shallow puddles,

 

Right, that massive bridge sequence no doubt happens on a bridge over top of a shallow puddle.

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The mods seem to have some kind of compulsion to defend the game at every opportunity, even when they're not even addressing what was said ("hope they didn't abandon swimming" becomes "you can still do things with water, like flip switches to make it disappear").

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The mods seem to have some kind of compulsion to defend the game at every opportunity, even when they're not even addressing what was said ("hope they didn't abandon swimming" becomes "you can still do things with water, like flip switches to make it disappear").

 

Yeah the most irritating part about that forum are the mods, it feels very baby like. I mean you can and inevitably will have complaints about your game and to bring them up and discuss them is completely normal but overthere EVERYTHING that is even slightly negative is just pushed away instead of addressed. It's so frustrating!

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So from what's been said it seems like these so called "moderators" are actually clandestine PR types (doing e.g. damage control). Moderators are supposed to enforce the rules for their compensation--no more, no less. These people do not fit that description.

 

But for god's sake, is there any aspect of life that the amoral class of PR types and influence peddlers won't corrupt? At least here in the US, one is hard pressed to find any bit of reporting/journalism or research that isn't tainted by this bullshit (e.g. on science, politics, product/service reviews, etc etc), and now one can't even take part in a game discussion without some assholes trying to "shape public perception"?

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not actually sure you can get Pneumonia from swimming in cold water, its most often caught by people living somewhere very hot. he must have been thinking of hypothermia. but that leather thing garrett wears would act the same way a wetsuit works, as in keeping the body warm. so the excuse for no water is just bollocks.

 

why don't they just say the engine doesn't support swimable water.

 

(double Pneumonia is when you get it on both lungs)

Edited by stumpy
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Hmm, I see there is confusion going on between EM staff and moderators... so allow me to chime in, if I may.

 

Where do they get these people and how do they really think this way?

I expect all staff are recruited in the normal way. A look at Degree achievements and work experience etc.

On a personal level, Freyja is a lovely person with a great sense of humour. She's just answering a question there and sharing one of her favourite moments in the game.

 

The mods seem to have some kind of compulsion to defend the game at every opportunity...

Just to clarify, Freyja is not a mod... she's the Web Content Manager for EM.

I've never seen anyone on the forum "defend" the game (in the way I think you mean).... only answer questions or share opinions.

 

I hope to hell they're paying Viktoria, 'cos she's on there day and night.

Haha, I wish! :D

There is obviously continued confusion going on between official staff and moderators.All "moderators" are volunteer fans... no coin.

 

Moderators are supposed to enforce the rules for their compensation--no more, no less. These people do not fit that description.

All members who are moderators do enforce the rules, absolutely. That is their task.

I fear you are forgetting that when they're not enforcing the rules in "moderator mode", they're essentially individual people/fans simply enjoying the same activity other members do, expressing theirr own personal opinions or answering questions from their own personal point of view.

 

Hope the above helps clarify.

 

__

 

EDIT/PS.

I disagree with the thread title... it's inconclusive! :P

Edited by Viktoria
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Like I said. I hope they're paying you. I think you're doing a font line public relations job (and 24/7 apparently, going by your posting rate) at a key time for a product potentially worth 10s if not 100s of $millions to them.

 

I think they're taking you for a fool / for granted if they're not.

 

tbh though, while we're here, the amount of posting that you do over there and the way that you try and 'correct' and supervise the direction discussions just makes it a not very nice place to talk (or read) about Thief. I was minded to resuscitate my account the other week because of the way you and MT were behaving when some kid was making some fair point about something or other. I know it's a tricky job getting the balance right, but there it is. Sorry. I fear you forget that you're not just a taffer but also a moderator. Perhaps it would be best if EM did pay staff (who weren't dedicated fans of said franchise) to do the moderating so you and everyone else can speak their mind freely and equally.

 

--edit--

 

Also it occurs that I probably should have just pm'd that last paragraph 'cos it's borderline personal. For the benefit of everyone else though - jay has no interest in bashing EM fora or their volunteer moderators. Trying to keep that place welcoming for everyone - including people who aren't grumpy pissed-off taffers - is tricky as hell I'm sure and I'd rather it was Viktoria doing it than me.

Edited by jay pettitt
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Haha, yeah, sorry about my recent posting rate. I've just got myself a new laptop and a Galaxy S4 and I can't put them down at the moment as far as internet is concerned.

New toys. I'm sure the novelty will wear off soon. :D

 

I'm not sure what you mean about mod behaviour, correcting and supervising discussions etc, but presume you mean in regards to implied official information about the devs and the game? If so, then, yes, mods will politely steer people toward facts rather than hearsay... its the official forum, after all. Other than that.... people are free to believe what they want, speculate as they like and post about anything they choose; in keeping with the ToU.

 

There is nothing to forget about being a moderator.... its never subjective. Its all about the ToU and the FAQs. That's it.

"Moderator Mode" takes less than 1% of a person's time... (removal of spam, and issuing the occasional infraction) the other 99% of the time is spent being the individual you are.

Mod Mode is incredibly brief, simply because the majority of the members manage to moderate themselves perfectly well.

 

There is no such thing as a paid moderator for Eidos. If you are paid, you can't be a moderator, you are an official member of staff.

Even if the moderators were to be paid; I'm sure they'd still wish to post their opinions like any normal member and join in on the fun and banter. And why not. B)

Edited by Viktoria
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Well why not would include that 3 months from a release of a AAA title that's likely cost Eidos the thick end of $50,000000 the EM fora are attracting contributions from 5 or 6 posters a day. 2 of which are moderators.

 

Push comes to shove, moderating is a bit like chairing a meeting. It's an exercise in listening, not talking.

 

Having lots to say is absolutely fine. It doesn't make anyone a bad person in the slightest or any sort of way. Having lots to say is great. But it might make you not the best chair or moderator. (but it might make you the best something else)

 

--edit--

 

Sorry, this is slightly complex. I'm not trying to say that a volunteer or two at the Eidos fora are singlehandedly putting off hundreds of thousands of potential punters (that'd be silly). Eidos Proper need to raise their PR game x1000 (assuming their actual game development game is better than lots would credit) and they'll sink or swim accordingly. But watching a couple of volunteer moderators try and keep it positive on the boards is kinda painful. tldr version - Thief (and it's reception) isn't your problem, you can't fix it.

 

Again, I appreciate that you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Edited by jay pettitt
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It is of little interest to me how much money the game has cost tbh; and I very much doubt the forum itself holds much influence in terms of actual sales etc., so forgive me for moving on from this one.

 

I see no real similarity between a moderator and a chairman. In fact, I find the differences to be huge - Admin and Chairman would be a more appropriate match.... mods just deal with the ToU at the lower level. There is no more to it than that. As is typical of the majority of volunteer moderators across many forums; it is not expected of them to listen and not talk. Mods are individuals, fans, so they are reading posts with interest, not listening in any professional capacity, so its quite normal for them to want to participate in discussion. Some choose to join in often.... some prefer to take a back seat. That is their choice as individuals and, as you say, its fine to want to join in if they wish. Joining in on the banter doesn't necessarily make a good moderator, true. People must decide that for themselves. Personally, I judge mods only on how they carry out their duties. For example, are they being fair with warnings and infractions?... if their 'friend' violates the ToU, did they still receive an infraction... did the mod just ban someone because they don't "like" them; or their friends don't like them.... are certain people being allowed to be rude to others, and the mod lets it happen... and/or even joins in... and so forth. At all other times, when not in mod-mode, they are posting as an individual. That is the reality of the situation.

 

Mods don't have orders or a duty to keep things positive and neither do they try to do so. I mean, really, why would they? They are not financially invested in the game. Anyway, if eidos mods were to have such a duty, we're failing miserably, hehe. So we're not stuck between a rock and a hard place in that sense... but we can be "misunderstood" occasionally - hence our current discussion, hehe. I never realised it would be difficult for some to see a separation between an individual person during mod-mode, and the same individual out of mod-mode.... mods literally only 'clock-in' for duty when some newbie account spams the forum, or a member (usually always a newbie or, occasionally, an established member gone rogue) decides its okay to break the rules. Once that is dealt with, time to clock off.

 

I appreciate you chatting with me and hope I have unravelled some of the confusion at least. If not, I'm more than happy to discuss further via PM if you wish. I know this thread is really to discuss the game, so happy to let it return to topic.

Edited by Viktoria
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Clearly, there is evidence of confusion with regard to moderators' roles... and I tried my best to clarify the facts.

People are free to take it or leave it, of course.

 

__

 

 

Anyway... back to the thread.

I disagree with the thread title on the grounds that the statement is inconclusive. It might be crap... it might be good.

Thief certainly "looks" good on the surface. I just hope it feels good, plays well and presents an interesting narrative. Time will tell.

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Yep, that's common problem with modern games. They look gorgeous from the surface, but are often hollow from the inside: unchallenging, simplified and "shruglingly meh."

 

It has been all over this thread. "Press X for takedown."

 

It is likely the thread title emanates from the argument above, coupled with disappointment to the ravagement of the franchise dear to many here.

 

If you go through the posts here, it is mainly about criticism towards T4. The title actually summarizes the general attitude pretty well. Based on the information seeping in, people are concluding that T4 will be trash, when analyzed from the context of the original games.

 

Whether the sentiment proves to be accurate or not, like you say, time will tell. Not many people here are gonna risk hideous disappointment by pre-ordering the game.

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Clearly, there is evidence of confusion with regard to moderators' roles... and I tried my best to clarify the facts.

People are free to take it or leave it, of course.

 

What confusion? I didn't think or insinuate that you were paid. I wouldn't care if you were. I think you should be, because, well, volunteering is nice and all, but it's not as though Eidos are a charity or good cause. That's what I said. I'm not confused about it.

 

Moderating is a lot like chairing a meeting. Despite your protests to the contrary. The point of chairing a meeting is to manage a, ya know, forum for other people to speak. Trust me on that, I know of what I speak. [edit - to make it unmistakably clear for thiefessa who is still getting it wrong below] The chair moderates the meeting. Like a moderator. The secretary's role is to organise the meeting, set out the agenda and spaces for discussion, like a forum admin. The chair moderates. And (the important bit) it's a job of listening, not talking endlessly and trying to get your favoured position to the fore.

 

 

And I maintain that you are between a rock and a hard place. Not for the reasons you think I said it. I don't think you're under any instruction to promote T4. I do think that managing a forum where people want to grumble puts demands on moderators to strike a balance.

So far, all the misunderstandings (and others besides) are your own. But like you say, it's good you posted here and cleared them up for yourself. Well done.

 

Also congrats on noticing that the thread title is premature. You're on a roll!

Edited by jay pettitt
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I'm more than happy to discuss further via PM if you wish. I know this thread is really to discuss the game, so happy to let it return to topic.

 

This.

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If you go through the posts here, it is mainly about criticism towards T4. The title actually summarizes the general attitude pretty well. Based on the information seeping in, people are concluding that T4 will be trash, when analyzed from the context of the original games.

I understand the points made and don't necessarily disagree or agree with the sentiments or potential disappointment, or satisfaction come to that.

I personally find it impossible to draw any definite conclusion one way or the other until after I've played. But that's just the way I am.

Oh, and just to clarify that I'm not disagreeing over the title in any 'serious' way... that's why I stuck my tongue out when I said it.

 

 

 

What confusion? I didn't think or insinuate that you were paid. I wouldn't care if you were. I think you should be, because, well, volunteering is nice and all, but it's not as though Eidos are a charity or good cause. That's what I said. I'm not confused about it.

 

Moderating is a lot like chairing a meeting. Despite your protests to the contrary. The point of chairing a meeting is to manage a, ya know, forum for other people to speak. Trust me on that, I know of what I speak.

 

And I maintain that you are between a rock and a hard place. Not for the reasons you think I said it. I don't think you're under any instruction to promote T4. I do think that managing a forum where people want to grumble puts demands on moderators to strike a balance.

 

So far, all the misunderstandings (and others besides) are your own.

 

You have misunderstood my follow-up replies. I wasn't addressing them to you personally, it was a general statement regarding the confusion and in light of said comments in this thread. The only reply addressed to you personally was the first one where I laughed and agreed it would be nice for mods to get paid, and I then added the fact that they don't because they are volunteers. The misunderstandings about roles and agendas etc are definitely not my own; I didn't post them.

 

I wasn't protesting that there wasn't any similarity at all between chairman and moderator. I said I see no REAL similarity between the two and that I consider the differences to be far greater, and that Admin and Chair would be a more appropriate match in regard to the Eidos forum; which is what we're discussing after all. Either way, my explanation was in response to the fact that you initially likened chairing a meeting as "an exercise in listening and not talking", (and that part would be correct) but moderators (at least Eidos mods and other forums I frequent) are not required to do this... so that is where the similarity you initially stated ends. I agree with your later reasoning, one of the duties of chairing a meeting is to manage people in said meeting, so there is similarity there with a moderator; both generalisations can be used interchangeably, obviously. But an Eidos moderator's duty is simply to keep the forum running smoothly in accordance with the house rules; whereas a chairman (or forum admin) is the one who makes said rules and has responsibility and power way above that of any volunteer moderator.

 

No rock and no hard place, honestly. There is nothing difficult about deleting spam and dealing with other minor trivialities. :D

The only time mods attempt to strike a balance is if, for example, a discussion gets too heated and people start to call each other names etc. Mods will come in and remind people not to get personal with each other and try to steer the discussion back on topic. No biggie.

 

The official forum is for anyone - whether they wish to grumble or express excitement... a 'moderator' is really not concerned about peoples' opinions; they are only concerned that members comply with the ToU.

Edited by Viktoria
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