Opinion on guard light/visual acuity after 1.08?

[Professor Paul1290]

This is just something I'm starting to notice more and more lately and I'm curious as to what the consensus is on this (if there is one).

 

What is your opinion on the current acuity of guards to light?

This is just about light and spotting the player visually, not about sound.

 

Note that I'm not actually sure how distinct the latter question is from the first question. It may be irrelevant, so I guess someone else would know more about that.

 

I feel I've been getting away with being in the light more than I've been able to get away with previously and there are times where I feel like I should have been caught but wasn't. I'm not really sure though as this is something really subjective.

 

 

 

I don't think feel like anything game-breaking or that seriously off at the moment so unless there's a very strong leaning one way or the other this would probably be low priority for now.

[Springheel]

Just repeating myself, but for context sake, AI were modified in 1.08 so that they don't react so suddenly when a player is in bright light. It used to be that a single half-second glance would cause an AI on the other side of the castle to come running at you with sword drawn. Now the player has more of a grace period. I sometimes feel like it might be a bit too generous now, especially at close range, but it's a difficult balancing act (and I accept that my view is coloured by the fact that I need a bit more challenge than your average player).

[grayman]

When you say "been getting away with being in the light more" are you saying that

 

a ) You were momentarily in the light, and ducked back into the shadow and in the olden days the AI would've seen you but today he doesn't.

 

or

 

b ) You stand still in a certain amount of light that in the olden days would've been enough for the AI to see you but today it isn't.

[Professor Paul1290]

When you say "been getting away with being in the light more" are you saying that

 

a ) You were momentarily in the light, and ducked back into the shadow and in the olden days the AI would've seen you but today he doesn't.

 

or

 

b ) You stand still in a certain amount of light that in the olden days would've been enough for the AI to see you but today it isn't.

 

I guess to clarify it's more of option A.

 

It's most noticable during when I get caught for brief periods in the light and duck back into the shadow.

 

For example, there was a recent moment during recent run (I think it was either The Knighton Manor or The Phrase Book) where I was caught in the light with my back to the NPC. The NPC said the usual "what's that?" or something to that effect, then I had enough time to turn 180, see him, think "oh sh*t", and duck back into the shadow. After that he walked over on low-alert and went back to what he was doing, and I was left wondering how he didn't catch me.

That one sticks out as the most jarring incident that comes to mind. It hasn't been that obvious most of the time, usually being a bit more nebulous with minor screw-ups here and there seemingly not being punished quite as much as they used to.

 

I don't know how much of that is me getting better and how much of it is the 1.08 adjustment.

[grayman]

It takes a few 'hits' for the AI to know he's really spotted you. Each 'hit' attempt is subject to lighting and distance and probability, and nearly all will fail, to balance against how frequently the AI looks for a 'hit'.

 

Once he's identified you, there's a moment of "huh?", as if he can't believe his eyes, then a very short distance-dependent period where he's really really deciding if you're an enemy. When that period is over, if he can still see you, he goes after you in combat mode.

 

The short delay period was put in to keep AI from instantaneously recognizing you. It gives you a moment to duck into shadow. Instantaneous recognition was the "big complaint" we were dealing with when we made the changes.

 

If this discussion decides the short period needs to be shorter, I'll be happy to make the change. Atm it's determined by this equation:

 

delay (in seconds) = 0.1 + 0.002413*distance

 

where 'distance' is the distance from the AI to you.

 

The max delay is 2 seconds, so the delay will be somewhere between 0.1 and 2 seconds, based on how far apart you are.

[Lux]

I've had a couple situations where, just for fun, I ran out in the light in front of a guard like standing maybe a meter in front of him and at first he says, "Do I see something there..." and then he goes in to attack mode with barks and it was maybe 1.5-2sec before he gave chase. I thought it was a bit slow.

 

I am a more seasoned player however so its hard for me to judge balancing for the average player as Springheel mentioned.

 

It would be nice if there were menu options in Settings that applied more difficult multipliers across all missions based on whether you choose, Easy, Medium, Expert in the mission or just a setting as there is now for lock picking and combat that applied to the AI's visual or auditory acuity.

 

... it was the last mission I played, I think The Builder's Influence though I've noticed it in others.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Lux

[SeriousToni]

Please don't make them harder again. The more forgiving ai was what I liked most on this update...

Edited June 17, 2013 by SeriousToni

[zergrush]

(and I accept that my view is coloured by the fact that I need a bit more challenge than your average player).

 

Springheel: too cool for skool.

[Moonbo]

One thing I've noticed though which is really annoying is that the AI are *incredibly* good at spotting corpses, even if they're in the shadows. Has anyone else experienced this? I've been in situations where I'm in a large patch of shadow, I've got a corpse shouldered, and AI are walking around. As soon as I drop the corpse, the AI will see it.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Moonbo

[Professor Paul1290]

It would be nice if there were menu options in Settings that applied more difficult multipliers across all missions based on whether you choose, Easy, Medium, Expert in the mission or just a setting as there is now for lock picking and combat that applied to the AI's visual or auditory acuity.

 

I'm not sure if that would be better or if that would just make it more confusing. AI acuity is more vague than lockpicking and it comes into play much more frequently than combat.

 

delay (in seconds) = 0.1 + 0.002413*distance

 

where 'distance' is the distance from the AI to you.

 

The max delay is 2 seconds, so the delay will be somewhere between 0.1 and 2 seconds, based on how far apart you are.

 

I suppose now that you've mentioned how it works and going back to the earlier example, maybe the most jarring part isn't necessarily their reaction time alone but what they do after "detecting" you slightly. The fact that I was able to lose them so easily during their casual search combined with reaction time makes it seem worse than it would be otherwise.

 

If I had to do more to throw off their casual searching than simply taking a few steps back then it would seem less awkwardly easy while at the same time not making it more sudden and twitchy again, and I get the impression that the recognition being sudden and twitchy was more the initial issue more than the overall difficulty.

On the other hand doing something about that might be more complicated than changing a variable however, and might not be practical in the near-term.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Professor Paul1290

[Springheel]

If this discussion decides the short period needs to be shorter, I'll be happy to make the change. Atm it's determined by this equation:

delay (in seconds) = 0.1 + 0.002413*distance

where 'distance' is the distance from the AI to you.

 

Just out of curiosity, how hard would it be to make a menu setting that selected from 3 different equations?

[grayman]

Just out of curiosity, how hard would it be to make a menu setting that selected from 3 different equations?

 

Not hard.

[New Horizon]

Just commenting from memory here, but to me it feels like their visual acuity in low light and 'close' range isn't as good as it used to be....although before it was far too good.

 

I think if their sight was a tiny bit better at close range and low light, then things would feel better.

 

Grayman, where are the relevant pieces of code located in the source? I wouldn't mind taking a peek and just playing around with it a bit myself.

[Springheel]

There's never going to be a perfect number for everyone, so I wonder if it would be worth having something in the option menu. "AI Vision" --> Easy, Default, Hard. Default could stay where it is now, and Hard would be somewhere between where it is now and where it used to be.

 

I've been finding several instances while playtesting lately where AI don't seem to react to me as much as I think they should. However, I'm sure there are lots of people who find that just right, and would be put off playing TDM if the AI were "too hard".

[grayman]

idAI::PerformVisualScan() is where it all begins. This happens each time the AI thinks, and contains the code that decides whether the AI has 'seen' you. All 'seen' means at this point is that he thinks something might be suspicious. His alert level is raised and code elsewhere drives him up into Combat mode during the next think time.

 

After that, look at CombatState::Init(). That happens once as the AI enters Combat mode. Near the end, look for the calculations that set 'reactionTime'. That provides the small delay that allows the player to slip back into the shadows before the AI decides he's found you.

 

Once Init() is finished, CombatState::Think() is run each time the AI thinks.

 

Varying an AI's ability to see you (make it worse, make it better) is probably going to require changes to both the initial visibility code in PerformVisualScan() and the reaction delay in Init().

[AluminumHaste]

You could change those to constants defined by the config files?

[grayman]

You could change those to constants defined by the config files?

 

Sure, or changed by a menu setting.

[Springheel]

Varying an AI's ability to see you (make it worse, make it better) is probably going to require changes to both the initial visibility code in PerformVisualScan() and the reaction delay in Init().

 

So what changed in 1.08? Was it only the addition of the reaction delay, or was the PVS adjusted as well?

 

If I understand you correctly, the reaction delay only comes into play if the AI would otherwise go into combat state? So if he would only reach agitated search or less, it has no effect?

[grayman]

So what changed in 1.08? Was it only the addition of the reaction delay, or was the PVS adjusted as well?

 

On the PVS end, I changed the visibility equation slightly so it would be what angua initially designed. That in and of itself didn't have a noticeable effect, and was just to sync the code with the wiki. My comment has to do with further adjusting the player visibility and probability equations to have an effect on how long it takes for the AI to finally decide he's seen the player. Since the alert level goes up with each sighting, it takes a few sightings before the AI enters combat mode.

 

Once he's in combat mode, there's a short delay that I introduced to account for the initial "Huh?" moment just before he realizes he's spotted the player. This varies based on how far away he is from the player.

 

If I understand you correctly, the reaction delay only comes into play if the AI would otherwise go into combat state? So if he would only reach agitated search or less, it has no effect?

 

The reaction delay occurs during the initial stage of combat mode, so it has no effect on search state entry timing.

[Springheel]

I changed the visibility equation slightly so it would be what angua initially designed.

 

Are you talking about this chart?

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Visual_scan

[grayman]

Yes.

[Springheel]

Since there are two different factors at play here (how well AI see you in low light, and how quickly they react when you're fully lit) I'm running some tests to see which one might be too forgiving. http://bugs.thedarkm...iew.php?id=3492

 

Overall Summary: So far, when the player is fully lit, I find AI react reasonably well at medium and long range. We may want a less forgiving option for skilled players, but they're probably just right for average players. I'll test close range and then move on to tests in low light.

[SirGen]

One thing I've noticed though which is really annoying is that the AI are *incredibly* good at spotting corpses, even if they're in the shadows. Has anyone else experienced this? I've been in situations where I'm in a large patch of shadow, I've got a corpse shouldered, and AI are walking around. As soon as I drop the corpse, the AI will see it.

I was gonna post the same thing. I hid a body in a place where I was once able to hide from guards myself, and the body was found. The guard's path was the same as when I was hiding in the shadows too. Edited July 18, 2013 by SirGen

[Springheel]

The code uses a different algorithm to decide whether the AI sees a body. It's yes/no, as opposed to the player's more gradual detection system.

[Springheel]

Ok, I think I'm on to something. AI's ability to see drops off quite dramatically as light goes down. (put the videos below full sized to see how bright the lightgem is)

 

 

Ok, short range test. AI at 320 units away, the length of an average sized room. I am standing, and not moving, waiting for AI to turn and face my direction.

 

1. In 75% light (single ambient_world set to 75) It takes the AI 1.5 seconds after facing my direction to register the alert. It takes him another 1.5 seconds after that to draw his sword and charge. That seems perfectly fine.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7EDsdUIvrM

 

2. In 50% light (single ambient world, value 50). It takes the AI less than a second to register an Alert 1. Then, about 3 seconds later, he goes to alert 3 and starts walking towards me. A second later he then goes to alert 4 and search-walks to a spot (same every time) several feet away from me (I haven't moved at all). He then goes to alert 5 and charges me. From a player's perspective, this doesn't feel right at all. The lightgem is still fairly bright, but he seems confused about what and where I am for a good 11 seconds (the time between his alert 1 and combat mode). Feels like it should be half that much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SguonsbCIpw

 

3. In 25% light, the AI did not see me at all! He faced my direction for 20 seconds, and after 4 tests in a row he did not even go to Alert 1. This is WAY too forgiving, IMO. The lightgem is dim, but it's still not dark--an AI should be able to see a standing figure across a room in light that bright.

 

4. Out of curiosity, I tested 35% light, and had the same result. The AI did not react to me at all.