Why not subtractive geometry in Dark Radiant?

[Nico A.]

I'm very new to using Dark Radiant but what I found strange immediately is the lacking possibility of building the geometry of the level in a subtractive mode. I remember when I played around in DromEd I found it WAY easier to use subtractive geometry to carve out the rooms than to build every wall of a room individually, and even with the "make room" command the handling seems more complicated to me...

 

- the wireframe mode looks far more complicated this way

- in the 3d view with texture mode, you can't look inside the rooms when the camera is in the void

- making holes in the walls requires changing the wall itself, in contrast to just placing the next room/corridor on the side of the room

- in a subtractive mode, one wouldn't need to consider whether the world somehow has a hole into the void

 

Could you explain to a layman like me why Dark Radiant doesn't allow building in substractive mode?

Edited August 14, 2013 by Nico A.

[Goldwell]

I know this article is for the Unreal engine but it lists some good pros and cons for both sides

 

http://utmapping.wik...-vs-subtractive

Edited August 14, 2013 by TylerVocal

[grayman]

Short answer: Because it's an additive editor, not a subtractive editor.

 

Long answer:

 

I never used DromEd, but I've used the original UnRealEd, which was also a subtractive editor. At the time, I found it to be a miserable tool, and building a world through subtraction wasn't ever anything more than a drudge for me. (Kudos to everyone who used it successfully.) It was designed to feed a map compiler that built worlds through brush subtraction, and the same fellow who built the original Unreal engine also built the editor, so I can assume there were no heated arguments about subtractive vs. additive design.

 

DarkRadiant is an additive editor, designed for an additive method of building worlds. Having it ever support a subtractive mode is out of the question (support at this time is less than minimal).

[Nico A.]

http://utmapping.wik...-vs-subtractive

 

That's an interesting read. I wouldn't complain if I'd have to create a big solid brush before carving out rooms from that. But as far as I can see, Dark Radiant doesn't allow anything like carving out geometry.

 

I've used the original UnRealEd, which was also a subtractive editor. At the time, I found it to be a miserable tool, and building a world through subtraction wasn't ever anything more than a drudge for me.

 

I don't know if it's necessary to add that in DromEd's substractive mode you could also add solid brushes. That means you can add geometry in a hollow form that has been substracted. Again, I don't know if that's obvious, I'm a layman!

[nbohr1more]

There's the clipper tool and csg extract as I recall. The latter is risky and should only be used for decorative func-static geometry.

[Melan]

CSG extract works fairly well as long as it is not used on complicated architecture, and the clipper tool is quite handy to cut up geometry. But yes, I sometimes miss subtraction - accomplishes some things easier.

[Lux]

CSG Subtract and CSG Merge are definitely handy for some things.

 

I was a little used to the source editor prior to DR and it is also additive and was an easy transition.

 

Look at it this way, if you're not out of your comfort zone, you're not learning!

[Moonbo]

Before working with TDM, the only previous mapping experience I had was messing around with the Unreal Dev Kit, which has subtractive geometry. So coming from that to Dark Radiant, I definitely know how you're feeling, especially when it comes to making doors and windows. It's just so much easier to carve out a hole instead of having to chop apart a brush into four pieces.

 

But after a while you sort of get used it, and tbh after my fourth room or so I totally forgot about the added work needed :-).

[Obsttorte]

I've also worked with DromEd before. And in the beginning I thought that substractive editing is better then additive, too.

 

But once you have the workflow, it actually doesn't play a big role how the editor works. Making doorways and windows for example is something that can be done very fast in DR, too. You just have to practice to find the right (thus meaning fast) way to do it.

[Sotha]

I've not used subtractive editors, so I don't know, but with the correct workflow you can be very effective in DR.

 

You just make one doorway plus door plus doorhandle plus visportal. Place it somewhere you can shift drag choose everything easily.

 

Then when you build, you make standard sized doorway holes between rooms. Then quick select the door part bunch, clone, drag it into place. You can insta-create all your doors in the same floor very fast like this.

 

I can't imagine how this would work in a subtractive editor.

[stumpy]

it depends on the game engine whether its additive or subtractive editor, doom 3 world is a void that you add to, while thief is a solid world that you carve bits from, so is unreal, but unreal is slightly different than thief, where you have to first create the brush you want to carve with then use that to carve out the world.

 

Although in the current versions of unreal most game companies just hollow out the world so that they can switch to additive. so to switch dark radiant to a subtractive editor you would also have to rewrite the way doom 3 see's the world, or you could just fill the void with one huge brush then carve a way at that, although i think if you did that doom 3 would crash with a winding's error.

[ithel]

It took me awhile to get used to as well, and I very much dislike having to worry about sealing the void. Nevertheless, Dark Radiant is a remarkably flexible editor. I've not yet released my work, but I am now more comfortable building with it than I ever was with DromEd.