Speed potion?

[wesp5]

Some of you probably know that I made an Unofficial Patch changing some core TDM mechanics and tools to make the TDM world more consistent and realistic in my point of view. So while playing "Hazard Pay" I noticed that Kingsal added an invisibility potion, which I rather liked, so I took a look at how he did this. I learned that he based it on the unused speed potion for which the model already exists and which is even shown in the TDM wiki. Now I have some questions about it:

- Was the speed potion supposed to speed up the player or slow down the world?

- Why was the speed potion never implemented and are there plans to still do so?

- If I would add it to the patch, could it become a part of the default vendor items?

- If I would add it to the patch, would you like a speed potion or invisibility potion?

In my opinion an invisibility potion would make more sense, as TDM is much more about not being seen compared to being able to run away, for which we already have the flash bombs. Of course one problem would be how to make the potion available to the player if it does not replace another item which is were the shopping list before the mission starts comes in. If this is fixed for each mission though I don't see a way to do this unless the mission adds some on purpose.

Edited March 15, 2022 by wesp5

[wesp5]

Okay, so nobody knows anything ;). For now I added the potion to the patch using the original orange speed potion model. Kingsal, with your permission I would like to use the invisibility effect though, as this is more useful in my opion. Sadly I learned that the shop inventory is included in the map files themselves so I can't include this in an easy way for older mission. Any other ideas to do that? Like are there duplicate or unnecessary items or tools that could be replaced? Otherwise it can only be used in future missions and in that case I suggest to add it as new option to the core game!

Edited March 18, 2022 by wesp5

[JackFarmer]

9 hours ago, wesp5 said:

 Sadly I learned that the shop inventory is included in the map files themselves so I can't include this in an easy way for older mission.

Maybe I do not understand correctly. You want to create an additional shop item in missions that have been designed years ago by authors who did not include the application of such an item in their gameplay mechanics?

 

[thebigh]

Many missions don't even include the shop.

Others have puzzles and set pieces that would get broken if the player had an unanticipated speed potion.

[VanishedOne]

Speed potion assets (model and shop inventory icon, but no inventory shop icon) have existed since way back, much like the gas mine model for which Sotha made a def.

The original plan was probably to implement it in a similar fashion to D3's powerup code (there's a comment "// TDM: leave this in for speed potions or something" in Player.cpp where most of the powerup code was stripped out).

(By the way, the RoE version of the D3 gamecode has commented-out code for a "powerup_haste".)

I made script-based implementations of speed and slow-fall potions a while back, initially very buggy ones once people started trying them out in various situations, though as far as I know all reported bugs are fixed.

Edited March 18, 2022 by VanishedOne
Mixed up which assets exist

[wesp5]

14 hours ago, VanishedOne said:

Speed potion assets (model and shop inventory icon, but no inventory shop icon) have existed since way back, much like the gas mine model for which Sotha made a def.

There aready was a gas mine? If I had known that I would not have needed to create the electrical mine for my patch ;)! And yes, my intention would be to make the invisibility potion available in all old missions that had a suitable tool which it could replace. Shops don't work and I don't fear about unbalancing the mission because it only works for about 8 seconds. I'm sure that the AI, lighting and sound code of TDM has changed so much over the years that this is much more critical in comparison! @VanishedOne, where can I find your SpeedPotion scripts? As you know I'm all for restoring original stuff.

Edited March 19, 2022 by wesp5

[wesp5]

15 hours ago, thebigh said:

Others have puzzles and set pieces that would get broken if the player had an unanticipated speed potion.

That's the argument that always comes up when new tools or features for the core game are suggested, but nobody ever explains exactly what these would be. Since I started my patch I play all mission with it and although e. g. extinguishing oil lamps makes some easier, the throwable holy water makes others harder, and still I haven't found a single mission yet that broke! TDM has options enough to circumvent changes like those and that argument is the main reason why gameplay hasn't improved in years, aside from missions where authors created fantastic tools that often are one-hit-wonders ;).

Edited March 19, 2022 by wesp5

[JackFarmer]

2 hours ago, wesp5 said:

That's the argument that always comes up when new tools or features for the core game are suggested, but nobody ever explains exactly what these would be. Since I started my patch I play all mission with it and although e. g. extinguishing oil lamps makes some easier, the throwable holy water makes others harder, and still I haven't found a single mission yet that broke! TDM has options enough to circumvent changes like those and that argument is the main reason why gameplay hasn't improved in years, aside from missions where authors created fantastic tools that often are one-hit-wonders ;).

It does not necessarily break missions, but can have other effects, for example:  Mission 2 - Tears of St. Lucia

A speed potion in the shop can discourage players from finding an alternative non-knock-out way to enter the church area, and this mission wants to teach players that lots of missions provide several ways to access certain areas.

 

 

[wesp5]

3 hours ago, JackFarmer said:

A speed potion in the shop can discourage players from finding an alternative non-knock-out way to enter the church area, and this mission wants to teach players that lots of missions provide several ways to access certain areas.

This would not be something negative, just another way to solve a problem if you want to spend your money on the potion. But for now it's just speculation anyway. It looks as if possible Speed or Invisibility potions can only be used in future missions including them on purpose. Still I think that those, as well as a lot of other mission specific player tools like the spectacles and blowtorch, should be included in the core game to offer much more possibilities for mission designers!

Edited March 19, 2022 by wesp5

[Xolvix]

It would be kinda cool if there was a speed potion in TDM that actually slowed down time in the world.

Bonus points if when activating it the Matrix lobby music starts up.

More bonus points if when shooting arrows you get a wobbly bullet-time trail effect.

Maximum bonus points if it gives you temporary wall-running capability while it's active.

[thebigh]

That would be cool, but it also wouldn't really be TDM. Unless you're playing one of those meta levels like Scroll of Remembrance.

[wesp5]

I just found and read the two threads where speed potion and slow fall potion were tested in 2015. The discussion suddenly stops and it's not clear whether the issues were fixed or not, and I would almost assume they weren't as they were never added to the core game. So I will stick with the invisibility potion from Kingsal using the speed potion model and texture because this is much less probable to break anything. It just lowers your visibility for some seconds...

Edited March 22, 2022 by wesp5

[thebigh]

Hm. I worry that a slow-fall potion would break existing maps worse than the speed potion. I am thinking mainly of "Thieves' Highway" missions where falling off the rooftops is supposed to be lethal, with the floor far enough down that the drop is long enough to kill you. With a slowfall potion you could survive the drop and then get stuck down there with no way to get back.

[wesp5]

It probably were things like this, or using it to jump out of the water to reach sections you mustn't get to, or using the speed potion to do the same. Also there were some problems with mantling but it seems they were fixed in the end:

Compared to that an Invisibility potion lowering visibilty to full dark for 10 seconds is much safer and already finished !

Edited March 22, 2022 by wesp5

[Wellingtoncrab]

What “suitable item” would be replaced with the potion that is somehow prevalent in most existing missions, but somehow also not too prevalent and is inessential enough to be completely replaced with something as potent as an invisibility potion?

Doesn’t seem like something that can be integrated in such a way - I imagine most mappers put some thought into the pickups available in their missions. Again the effort to get the potions working seems great - seems like they could be really cool to incorporate into new missions or make available for authors to patch into their missions on their own. I just don’t see how forcing it into an experience which was not designed with it in mind works at all.

[wesp5]

15 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

What “suitable item” would be replaced with the potion that is somehow prevalent in most existing missions, but somehow also not too prevalent and is inessential enough to be completely replaced with something as potent as an invisibility potion?

I have no idea myself. For now this is only a feature that mission authors could use in future missions, and of course it would be better if it was included in the core game, because I don't know if any mission authors would use my patch as their base ;).

@Dragofer, I can send you all necessary files to include this. The model and shop picture were already in the game, I created an inventory item myself and used the scripts by Kingsal. So with about five files this could become a core mod feature!

Edited March 23, 2022 by wesp5

[Oktokolo]

9 hours ago, wesp5 said:

For now this is only a feature that mission authors could use in future missions, and of course it would be better if it was included in the core game, because I don't know if any mission authors would use my patch as their base ;).

If they would use your patch as a base - wouldn't players using your patch get crashes because of duplicate definitions or script objects?

Edited March 23, 2022 by Oktokolo

[Wellingtoncrab]

I think typically definitions in the fm archive override the base game - even if the base game itself has been overridden - this seems like an issue with “patching” the game in general - if a mission for example has its own overrides for content in the scope of patch the patch won’t have any effect anyway or in the case of the invisibility potion it might even duplicate mechanics - in that way it’s probably better in my mind to provide the “patch” as a “tool kit” for mappers sort of like the startmap.pk4 who want to use and design around the revised mechanics instead promoting it as “fix” to the core game, which I would point out is in active development.

To each their own, though.

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

In that way it’s probably better in my mind to provide the “patch” as a “tool kit” for mappers sort of like the startmap.pk4 who want to use and design around the revised mechanics instead promoting it as “fix” to the core game, which I would point out is in active development.

I make the patch foremost for myself, because while the core game is in active development, the main efforts there seem to only be about graphical and performance improvements. The gameplay doesn't get considered at all, even though many mission authors are doing their own things in the meantime.

[thebigh]

I don't think that's entirely true. Mantling and ragdoll physics have been improved recently, and the jankeriffic blackjack behaviour is getting fixed soon too.

[Kurshok]

What about a strength potion for pushing heavy objects out of the way, like boulders or bookshelves, to reveal hidden passages?

[wesp5]

9 hours ago, Kurshok said:

What about a strength potion for pushing heavy objects out of the way, like boulders or bookshelves, to reveal hidden passages?

That would be another good idea, but compared to the invisibility potion it will only work in missions designed to use it. Like the magic spectacles and blowtorch tools introduced recently...

Edited March 24, 2022 by wesp5

[wesp5]

13 hours ago, thebigh said:

Mantling and ragdoll physics have been improved recently, and the jankeriffic blackjack behaviour is getting fixed soon too.

Still these are only details that casual players probably won't notice at all. When was the last time TDM added something new that was really different? I remember all the ruckus about the frob outline which was then cut completely in the end! For which I added an option to use it in the most subtly black form for my patch in about half an hour . For whatever reasons the core members are very reluctant to touch the base game, thus mission authors often go their own way...

Edited March 24, 2022 by wesp5

[Wellingtoncrab]

Yeah as a casual player I admit I barely noticed the xray features in Written in Stone or the save rooms in Hazard Pay.

I can’t imagine how either of those leveraged features which were fixed or added to the core mod.

I agree with you about the frob highlight, but the developers also listened to yours and others feedback at the time which was often quite negative if I recall. So I am not certain what more we can expect from them than that.

I do think it is perhaps time for a clean break so the developers could play more with the mechanics of the game without being so precious about it. Perhaps the very thing that allows your patch and the level of customization fm authors have to work, the modularity of the .pk4 system, could allow legacy mechanics to be walled off and preserved and a new era to begin. But again something easily uttered, but not our call.

But on my end when I see something new I am typically like “that is cool!”, but I stop somewhere before “That is cool! How can I force this into St.Lucia.” and I think that very modularity, which is so often typically handled at the fm level, will result in more inconsistency and conflicts with players using your patch. But more power to you brother, god knows I would never play bloodlines without your patch work there, and it’s cool that TDM makes this kind of thing so easy.

[wesp5]

31 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

Yeah as a casual player I admit I barely noticed the xray features in Written in Stone or the save rooms in Hazard Pay.

Is this supposed to be irony? Nobody could miss the xray features and as far as I know they already are going to become part of the core game which is a good thing. Of course I don't expect them to appear in earlier missions, but I would really like to have all the cool new features at least being considered to become assets for future missions! As for the frob outline, there were different opinions about different versions, but what I and others demanded the most was an option to choose. After all we can set AI hearing and sight several times over, but nothing about ko immunity, exstinguishable lamps, frob outlines? I hardly know how to mod TDM at all and I could do them for my patch, so it should be a breeze to add options for these to the core game. The same goes for the speed potion and the slow fall potions! The last thing that their threads imply is that the problems were fixed, but then nothing...

Edited March 24, 2022 by wesp5