Working on a world map of every named location as well as other things

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

The climates already won't fit. As far as I know, the north is supposed to be pretty cold, and mountainous, e.g.

I completely agree! Bridgeport on the map is in southern France which doesn't fit at all, regardless on how you call it. Is the in-game map part of the core game or did mission authors use historical maps whithout thinking of the consequences?

Edited August 15, 2022 by wesp5

[Wellingtoncrab]

So far haven’t met anyone who wants Bridgeport to be in France - it’s typically in The Empire as the wiki states. Though I suppose you could even set an FM in Des Moines, Iowa if you wanted. 

11 minutes ago, chakkman said:

I guess the whole point of orientating on real life regions is because it's easier than imagining and creating a whole new world.

Easy? It at minimum seems less difficult than imagining France could not exist - but I think I may have exhausted that course.

2 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Is the in-game map part of the core game or did mission authors use historical maps whithout thinking of the consequences?

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_World_at_Large Does this sound like the British Isles?

The maps this one is based has been in core forever as @Airship Balletalready pointed out.

[Springheel]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

I completely agree! Bridgeport on the map is in southern France which doesn't fit at all, regardless on how you call it. Is the in-game map part of the core game or did mission authors use historical maps whithout thinking of the consequences?

Given that the point about France not existing has already been made, what "consequences" are you referring to?

[chakkman]

One consequence could be that, for consistency, all mappers use that map for world reference. Would be kinda weird if a mapper came up with his own imagined world map in one of his missions now, when everyone thinks Bridgeport is located in France (yes, the future France).

Well, maybe that's what the creators of the mod wanted. I don't know how old that asset is, and who did it originally.

Edited August 15, 2022 by chakkman

[OrbWeaver]

I think people are getting hung up on the question of whether the nation of France existed, which is actually irrelevant to this discussion because in the TDM world, none of the real-world nations actually exist with their real names and political histories. Nor does it matter whether "Britain" existed, because Bridgeport is never described as being in "Britain".

The question is whether the geography and climate of (what we now call) southern France match the areas which are presented in game. It seems to me that Bridgeport is modelled more on a port city of medieval England (which certainly did exist geographically, regardless of what the country was called or who ruled it at the time). But I guess you don't really perceive temperature in-game, and most missions take place at night in a small area of the city, so it could be pretty much anywhere in (what we now call) Europe.

[Kukutoo]

I think while the coastline is the same, the weather and the mountains are vastly different. 
The mountain range in the Lich Queens demise are insane! And they take place not but a few miles north of Glenham which is only a few miles north of Braeden. Which puts it about center of the Western Empire. 
While in France there are no intense mountain ranges comparable to Glenhams, in the Western empire there is. 

Also someone stated that the Western Empire has giant mushrooms and glowing crystals. 

[Wellingtoncrab]

I don’t know why in a fictional empire the climate has to be identical simply because it borrows from actual geography and elements of history.

12 minutes ago, OrbWeaver said:

none of the real-world nations actually exist with their real names and political histories. Nor does it matter whether "Britain" existed, because Bridgeport is never described as being in "Britain".

This is the point I am actually hung up on.

[chakkman]

12 minutes ago, OrbWeaver said:

I think people are getting hung up on the question of whether the nation of France existed, which is actually irrelevant to this discussion because in the TDM world, none of the real-world nations actually exist with their real names and political histories. Nor does it matter whether "Britain" existed, because Bridgeport is never described as being in "Britain".

The question is whether the geography and climate of (what we now call) southern France match the areas which are presented in game. It seems to me that Bridgeport is modelled more on a port city of medieval England (which certainly did exist geographically, regardless of what the country was called or who ruled it at the time). But I guess you don't really perceive temperature in-game, and most missions take place at night in a small area of the city, so it could be pretty much anywhere in (what we now call) Europe.

Apart from the geography and climate, shouldn't the ingame characters speak... like... French then?  Or have French names. Or anything typically French to them. They don't seem like Frenchies to me.

Also, regarding the time frame, this is from the TDM wiki: 

Quote

Missions have established the date of the setting as around 1630 AD.

(The kingdom of) France existed back then.

[chakkman]

8 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

I don’t know why in a fictional empire the climate has to be identical simply because it borrows from actual geography and elements of history.

This is the point I am actually hung up on.

The climate of Game of Thrones differs from the actual climate of Great Britain as well, but, so does the world map. There are a lot of similarities though, cold in the north, warm(er) in the south, and, there are also a lot of references to actual locations. It strikes me as if, at least, some thought has gone into which real world location would be best suited. That's the point I am hung up on. South France doesn't make too much sense to me.

What I've usually imagined: Bridgeport being a seaport in south England, a warmer, not well known region to the south, across the sea, and the more cold, snowy cities up north, where it gets more and more montainous. Maybe a vastly unexplored region even further north, where more of the barbaric tribes reside.

Edited August 15, 2022 by chakkman

[Airship Ballet]

I still remember that time in Rome ages ago where the Pope shot force lightning at this Ezio guy, who then decked him in the face and went to speak to space aliens. Happened in Rome in a video game so I can only assume that was real.

[jaxa]

13 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

I second that. Not to mention that the use of fictive names and locations in addition to the whole anachronical setting implies it is a fictive world either way, so placing it on a real world map seems odd to me.

I personally never considered my missions to be part of a world were the rest of the missions play, or that all missions are part of the same world. That is neither necessary nor helpful, as it would imply that mappers consider and reference the work of other authors. Some may do this in some extent if they liked the work of someone for example, but I am not sure it is a common thing.

Rather than a shared world map, I was recently wondering if mappers would ever use a (prefabricated?) shared city, outside of some sort of campaign collaboration that revisits the same areas multiple times.

It would probably be difficult and creatively stifling, but maybe you would see rough agreement on the rough layout of a city or major landmarks. Like the relative locations of a port area, giant central cathedral, the plague section, etc.

If that has already happened, I didn't notice. Which might point to why it doesn't matter.

Edited August 15, 2022 by jaxa

[Springheel]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

 In my opinion this makes the world much more consistent and does not change other details, as like you say, Menoa could be Ireland and the moors could be from Spain. These are less consistency problems to me than the climate, the architecture and the language.

 

Putting Bridgeport in the British Isles is just as, if not more, inconsistent with existing details (setting aside the fact that the wiki says it is "on the coast of Southern Europe").  Last I checked there was no "large mountain range" north of London, no "warm, temperate sea" to the south with a "much hotter continent", no "range of mountains that inhibit overland attacks" between England and Ireland.  It would also be difficult for Bridgeport to be the "commercial center of the Empire" when it is not connected to the rest of the Empire by land.  There would be no "Builder Roads" leading to the capital.

If you find it easier to accept all of that than to imagine that this alternate version of earth might have a slightly cooler climate and a more generic fantasy culture than the real world, then more power to you.  But don't pretend it's anything other than personal preference.

[wesp5]

8 minutes ago, Springheel said:

If you find it easier to accept all of that than to imagine that this alternate version of earth might have a slightly cooler climate and a more generic fantasy culture than the real world, then more power to you.  But don't pretend it's anything other than personal preference.

Of course I admit that this is my personal preference as are all the other things the patch changes, but then I never knew any of the descriptions of the location of Bridgeport before this discussion in the first place, as I don't usually read a wiki when or even before I play a game or mod.

Which again brings me to a question you might be able to answer: was the location of Bridgeport an intentional decision of the core development team or did it just somehow originate from small details mission authors invented and then turned into canon by mentioning it in the wiki?

Edited August 16, 2022 by wesp5

[Kukutoo]

Now if we talk about culture, while Bridge port is not comparable to anyone in particular (due to it being ficticuous and the largest city in the world), it reminds me most of high medieval Italy. With the super Urban city life, and the manors and estates built into the cities, looming tower houses that reflect the wealth of families like the Voltas. (the neighborhoods in Volta do give off Venice vibes) much like the nobility of the Ghibellines, or the Guelphs, the only affairs that matter to them are within the city of Bridgeport for most matters. 
The arts, and Inventions of Bridgeport are vast, as the Inventors guild is more or less barred to stay within the city as to not compromise the inventions that allow the Empire to hold its ground against Menoa and other threats. 
Guilds and Unions are powerful within the Western Empire, England was for the most of its history not nearly as fond of unions or guilds as Italians were. 
The many musicians and writers that are name dropped within the many fan mission:
Ludwig Prinn, Olaf Olafson, Le Strange, De Malyns, Wolfram, Nigel G Manton, Drae Gof’ Erre, Castaigne, Mary Chambers, Gelo Fleisher come from vast and wide western origins, which gives off a central feeling to the city itself where the people of the world flock to it, for its accessibility and its possible safety for arts. (if the Builders allow certain things) But once again give me heavy High medieval Italian vibes, or the separate independent city and how it is its own governor. 

If anything I think of Bridge port like a colder, bloated, polluted, creaking industrial Venice more then a London or Bristol. 

[wesp5]

Sorry, hijacking the thread was not my intention. I will create a new thread for my patch...

[Kukutoo]

Its all good! 
Passion for any form of art is always good.