[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

[wesp5]

5 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

“At the simplest level each possible action is reduced to a single most likely action”

To me shouldering is not the most likely action. What about getting items from corpses or looking up their name using snatcher's improvement? And what about food, is the player forced to eat it automatically now?

[datiswous]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:15 PM, stgatilov said:

P.S. I think I only saw long-click thing on touch screens, and there I always see some kind of circular progress bar which explains to me that holding the button will do something special. But that's not something suitable for TDM unfortunately.

Why not? Is there a technical limitation that you can't add an animation when holding the button? There's a gui for shouldering, is it not possible to have a special gui for long-pressing a button?

 

On 9/24/2023 at 5:35 PM, stgatilov said:

Why not double-click instead?

Suppose something like that:

• Single-click body to grab/ungrab it
• Double-click body to shoulder it
• Single-click candle to grab/ungrab it
• Double-click candle to extinguish it

Indeed, this could be even better. But we need to test it first.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by datiswous

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

Why not? Is there a technical limitation that you can't add an animation when holding the button?

Cyberpunk 2077 for example shows exactly how long a control is pressed with a little changing icon...

[Wellingtoncrab]

4 hours ago, wesp5 said:

To me shouldering is not the most likely action.

You have made this clear. You do not need to say it over and over again. 

It may be “consistent” in some way but it is not the solution these other immersive sims came up with and it is confusing and frustrating to some players.

Do you have an issue with players having an option to play this way? Even the patched version in its current state already includes an option to keep the original behavior for players like you.

4 hours ago, wesp5 said:

And what about food, is the player forced to eat it automatically now?

In the current patch food handling is not changed. The idea that a certain thing is “forced” by the frob action again is the complete opposite of the point that it is a context sensitive control. It should do what makes sense in the context of the game.

Food can be eaten but it’s also a physics object - so I don’t see it as inconsistent that the primary is pick it up on frob and consume it in place with long press/double click whatever. I can see the other side to. It’s a good question.

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

Do you have an issue with players having an option to play this way?

No, but I would really like to have the option to have it the other way around too, because I think the idea as such is fine.

[Skaruts]

7 hours ago, wesp5 said:

To me shouldering is not the most likely action. What about getting items from corpses or looking up their name using snatcher's improvement?

There's no conflict there, though. If you're aiming at the belt-purse, you loot the purse. If you're aiming at the body, you shoulder it. Just like you do in Thief. Shouldering is the most common action when you're deciding what to do with the body, not with the items it's carrying.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Skaruts

[Daft Mugi]

3 hours ago, wesp5 said:

No, but I would really like to have the option to have it the other way around too, because I think the idea as such is fine.

I could provide a cvar that restores 2.11 behavior for bodies and uses the new behavior for candles. How about that?

8 hours ago, wesp5 said:

What about getting items from corpses or looking up their name using snatcher's improvement?

These things should work just fine. Aren't you using the Windows build provided by @Wellingtoncrab? Could you please give it a try and let me know if there are issues? If so, I'll need to make adjustments.

[stgatilov]

9 hours ago, Daft Mugi said:

Another reason for long-press frob for special action: 2.11 already has one, multiloot.

Quick-press frob to loot.
Long-press frob to multiloot.

It is not a long-click, it is click-and-hold, where holding time matters (and is much longer than long click).
So with your change it would be short click, long click, and click-and-hold.

Click-and-hold at least continues short click, while long click does not.
When I pick up a candle, the candle is lift off with delay --- that's because long click does not continue the action of short click, so the code has to wait until mouse is released and can't apply the short-click action immediately.
That's exactly the issue that you fixed with crouching, and now you introduce it in another place.

 

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, Daft Mugi said:

I could provide a cvar that restores 2.11 behavior for bodies and uses the new behavior for candles. How about that?

That would be great, but what I would really like is just a cvar to reverse the short frob and long frob behaviour for bodies. Also the optimal solution would probably be to add gameplay options so each player can set this how they want it! This would also fix the problem of players not knowing about the new controls. But then this might be a lot of additional work.

Edited September 25, 2023 by wesp5

[Daft Mugi]

57 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

So with your change it would be short click, long click, and click-and-hold.

That is incorrect. Multiloot is still click and hold to loot.

57 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

That's exactly the issue that you fixed with crouching, and now you introduce it in another place.

It's a compromise, and that compromise is only for moveable light sources. It gives players a way to extinguish a candle without picking it up first, reducing steps. And, it gives players who ghost the ability to extinguish it without moving it.

 

The point I was trying to make is that holding frob to perform an action is common.

• Multiloot happens while holding frob.
• Dragging a body happens while holding frob.
• Extinguishing a candle happens while holding frob.

As another example, some missions have a wheel (switch) that opens a gate. While the player holds frob, the wheel turns, opening the gate more and more. I'm not sure if there is a TDM mission with one, but there are Thief missions that do.

 

There's hold "attack" or "use" button to throw objects farther.
There's hold "manipulate" button to rotate objects.

[Wellingtoncrab]

Again anyone who has ever used a controller is used to holding buttons to get different input and it is already supported by the TDM controller config. So I guess I am just used to doing this already from playing the game from time to time on a steam deck. 

If indicating the state change to players is an issue then maybe the existing frob helper could be change size/shape/color or something when a “long press” is achieved. 

That way players who do need the indicator can turn it off via the existing frob helper settings.

[Daft Mugi]

I would like to make sure we are on track to solve the issues at hand.

 

Is there agreement that new players struggle and often quit playing TDM due to its current control scheme?

Note the player complaints on the first page.

 

Is there agreement on this proposal's main objective?
Make TDM's "frob" and "use" interactions simpler for new players while also improving it for longtime players.

I should point out that "improving it for longtime players" does not mean that every single longtime player will get a new control scheme that they are satisfied with. They might have to continue to use the "TDM 2.11" control scheme or learn the new one, even though they don't entirely agree with it. Again, the main objective is to "make TDM's frob and use interactions simpler for new players."

 

Is there agreement that the following issues need to be solved?

• How can the control scheme be made less cumbersome?
• How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them?
• How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up?
• How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking (currently in TDM 2.11) be eliminated?

 

@stgatilov Are you in agreement with this proposal's main objectives? Even if you disagree with long-press frob, is it ok to include long-press frob in 2.12 dev if players want it?

[stgatilov]

8 hours ago, Daft Mugi said:

Is there agreement that the following issues need to be solved?

 

• How can the control scheme be made less cumbersome?
• How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them?
• How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up?
• How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking (currently in TDM 2.11) be eliminated?

 

I think not.
The goal is to have convenient way to instantly shoulder a body and instantly extinguish the candle.
The old scheme is bad because frob is by default on mouse, and use is by default on keyboard, so doing click + keypress + click feels awful.

As for discoverability, only the proper tutorial mission can really solve all the problems.

Quote

Even if you disagree with long-press frob, is it ok to include long-press frob in 2.12 dev if players want it?

You have something like 4 pending changes right now.
Perhaps you commit the other three (which are less radical) to trunk, then I'll make a dev build of it, and then I'll apply your patch and create a test build (also in tdm_installer) with frob changes? Then I can do the same with double-clicking prototype.

 

[stgatilov]

One issue I really see with saying "just click to shoulder body" is that clicking again does not drop it.

Right now the player has to press Enter to shoulder the body, so it is logical to press Enter to unshoulder it.
But as soon as we try to simplify it and move shouldering to the same mouse button, it would be natural to expect that player should unshoulder with the same mouse button too. But it does not happen by default.

It is indeed possible to unshoulder on click. That's what @Wellingtoncrab said is already done with the patch, although it did not work for me when I tried --- perhaps I messed something up. The real issue is that player might also want to frob doors when body is shouldered, so now opening doors and unshouldering body gets mixed together. It is possible to unshoulder on click only when there is no object highlighted, but that's still a bit strange.

And I think there is no perfect way around it.

[wesp5]

44 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

The goal is to have convenient way to instantly shoulder a body and instantly extinguish the candle.

I should remind you that my Unoffcial Patch already includes another way to instantly extinguish candles in holders by making the candle a seperate entity that can be frobed. This might be a way out of this problem...

[wesp5]

31 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

One issue I really see with saying "just click to shoulder body" is that clicking again does not drop it.

What do you think about my suggestion, which I mentioned often enough, that long frob shoulders a body and drops it? Chances are very low that you encounter another long frob situation while shouldering a body when your hands are tied.

Edited September 26, 2023 by wesp5

[datiswous]

2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

It is indeed possible to unshoulder on click. That's what @Wellingtoncrab said is already done with the patch, although it did not work for me when I tried --- perhaps I messed something up.

I just tried on a Windows pc and I can unshoulder on click just fine.

2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

The real issue is that player might also want to frob doors when body is shouldered, so now opening doors and unshouldering body gets mixed together. It is possible to unshoulder on click only when there is no object highlighted, but that's still a bit strange.

I think it's something that comes naturally. If something is highlighted, that takes priority over the unshouldering. Also, the old method of unshouldering with keyboard key still works even when object is highlighted.

 

2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

The goal is to have convenient way to instantly shoulder a body and instantly extinguish the candle.
The old scheme is bad because frob is by default on mouse, and use is by default on keyboard, so doing click + keypress + click feels awful.

As for discoverability, only the proper tutorial mission can really solve all the problems.

I think the goal is to make the controls more logical and more convenient, although I have to say that if I din't have the issue that I couldn't find the use key (it does not excist in Settings >Controls), I wouldn't become active on the forum.

Btw. I think the tutorial mission was a team effort, right? So this might mean that if a forum user would supply fixes to it, they could be reviewed and implemented? Just like what has been done recently to Tears of St. Lucia.

Edited September 26, 2023 by datiswous

[wesp5]

45 minutes ago, datiswous said:

So this might mean that if a forum user would supply fixes to it, they could be reviewed and implemented?

It's very easy to change text in the tutorial mission, I did so for my Unofficial Patch and I even added items.

[datiswous]

1 minute ago, wesp5 said:

It's very easy to change text in the tutorial mission, I did so for my Unofficial Patch and I even added items.

I know how to do it for myself. But I don't need it for myself. That is not the point.

[Wellingtoncrab]

4 hours ago, stgatilov said:

 The real issue is that player might also want to frob doors when body is shouldered, so now opening doors and unshouldering body gets mixed together. It is possible to unshoulder on click only when there is no object highlighted, but that's still a bit strange.

This, just like click again to drop a body, is already included in the patch.

If a switch, button or door are highlighted you will interact with them without dropping the body. There are probably more objects this would need to cover which will come up with more testing (readables maybe?)

Seems like elements of the patched executable aren’t working with your install for some reason?

[datiswous]

11 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

It is possible to unshoulder on click only when there is no object highlighted, but that's still a bit strange.

This is actual behaviour in the patched version. It's (i.m.o.) not strange and not a problem though.

[Wellingtoncrab]

5 hours ago, wesp5 said:

What do you think about my suggestion, which I mentioned often enough, that long frob shoulders a body and drops it? Chances are very low that you encounter another long frob situation while shouldering a body when your hands are tied.

I think daft said he would consider a variable to try and cover you. It'd be nice to see you acknowledge that you understand while this is your preference it nullifies one of the primary goals of the patch which is to address specific feedback we see from new players who are giving up on playing the game. 

That is because what seems consistent to you is actually inconsistent with any other game like this they have played.

Apologies, it is quit tiresome to emphasize this aspect of the patch over and over again. Everyone respects your preference and understands your feedback, to the point that full backwards compatibility with the original controls has been in the patch since the very beginning and as mentioned daft already said he would consider an option for you. It's just very hard to tell if you do not care about solving this particular problem (which is fine), or you just don't understand at all what the patch is attempting to achieve (also fine).

Either way you are asking over and over again to undo this aspect of the patch and never providing an alternative that addresses the same problem.

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

This is actual behaviour in the patched version. It's (i.m.o.) not strange and not a problem though.

Agreed - my experience is that it feels completely natural to me. Frob being a contextual action - if an object is highlighted in your view you interact with it, if there isn’t one you drop the body. i haven’t run into issues with not being able to interact with doors or even very small buttons like snatcher was describing. Since all the original inputs also still work you actually have multiple options for dropping or snuffing candles you are holding.

[Skaruts]

Just took a few minutes to give this a go, and I 've had no issues at all. As far as I can tell it works as intended:

• frob to shoulder body
• frob to unshoulder body
• hold-frob to drag body
• hold-frob to pinch candle

It seems to prioritize highlighted objects just fine (loot bags on bodies, doors while shouldering, etc).

I'm quite happy about how it works, tbh, in terms of gameplay. It's a relief to have no unnecessary steps to it.

I played my unpatched game just to check everything else behaves the same, and I immediately had a bit of a hiccup with the controls. I don't often blow candles or shoulder bodies, since I tend to ghost more often, so I don't exactly have to default controls in my muscle memory.  I had to remind myself I was playing the unpatched version and that there's extra steps to it, because the patched controls are so more intuitive to me that I had already got used to them (in just 5 minutes of goofing around).

 

 

 

 

 

[wesp5]

45 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

Either way you are asking over and over again to undo this aspect of the patch and never providing an alternative that addresses the same problem.

Don't you get that I mentioned my alternative over and over again? The original players had an issue because they didn't know they need to use a different key for shouldering a body. If this is done by long frobbing instead, the same as e. g. multilooting or extinguishing a candle in your current patch this problem is solved! I have no issues with the idea, I only would like to have the order consistent: short frob - pick up (as is normal with all moveables in TDM), long frob - special action (like shouldering, extinguishing, multilooting or maybe eating consumables next). The thing I find inconsistent is that you see shouldering not as a special action. Also I hope Daft is kind enough to add a cvar variable with which this can be adjusted, it shouldn't be too difficult to reverse short and long triggers.

Edited September 26, 2023 by wesp5

[Wellingtoncrab]

30 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Don't you get that I mentioned my alternative over and over again?

Impossible to miss.

30 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

If this is done by long frobbing instead, the same as e. g. multilooting or extinguishing a candle in your current patch this problem is solved!

Read their feedback. Anyone playing the game knows to interact with things that are highlighted and that the primary way to interact with things is to frob them. What they don't know is there is an entirely different control layer in the game which provides different interactions: "use item to shoulder" being the example we are discussing. Long press is still a complex input in this regard and it is not the proposed solution to the added complexity in the game, it is a proposed way to manage that complexity from a single input.

It is the tying of the familiar input (frobbing) to the familiar result (interacting with a body to shoulder it), and then tying the unfamiliar "new" input (long frob/double click/use item/etc) to the unfamiliar "new" result (using a interaction modifier to do fine grain manipulation of the body) that is a potential solution to this. That is not to claim it is perfect.

Shouldering/dropping bodies is an essential player action. There are missions, such as volta 2, where shouldering a body is essential to complete the mission.

There is no example I am aware of where fine manipulation of a body is ever essential - it is a nice additional layer of control.

So why is fine control of bodies the first thing many players will learn?

Maybe because the mod launched without shouldering or something? (I played it when it came out and am not sure if this was the case or like these new players I just didn't know it was possible, but I used to just drag bodies everywhere) Maybe it was to show off some of the physics interactions that were new to the mod vs thief? I am not sure. I am sure it is not working for some players.

It did not work for me. When I came back to try the mod in 2019 it took many missions for me to stumble upon this input combination (I remember it quite clearly - it happened on accident while I was playing my now favorite mission “Perilous Refuge”). And yes I had played the training mission - multiple times.