gold Better looking metals in Darkmod

[Arcturus]

I probably shouldn't be touching transparency at all. It's a can of worms.

Here's one example where 32 bit is working better than 64 bit mode. In 32 bit values are clipped when in 64 they explode.

 

 

[peter_spy]

The new bloom is meant to be working with rgb ranges above like that though. If you don't want it, don't go overboard with blend add values. It works pretty great with light sources:

[Arcturus]

I'm not talking about bloom. All of the window materials are glowing in the dark. Many of them use blend add and make things in front of them brighter, when they should be making things darker, like in real life.

My scepter material doesn't use blend add, it does use gl_dst_color, gl_src_color though.

If we're talking about bloom, it would be a lot more useful with proper tonemapping. I can make fire much brighter so I get bloom, exept color values are clipped so I lose all detail.

[peter_spy]

For glass, these might be shader limitations in this model, I wouldn't have my expectations too high. Last time I was working with glass, I managed to get semi-consistent results with transparent colored glass, but the cubemap reflection would still glow in the dark, so it was toned with shaderparm3.

[MirceaKitsune]

Just wanted to say I'm absolutely in favor of seeing this in the next release. Applied retroactively in all FM's this time, please! We don't have a system for generalized realtime reflections yet, but even with cubemaps that is so much better than the old graphics we still have in a few areas.

Indeed cubemaps tend to appear brighter. That''s usually because they're applied using "blend add" as that makes most sense for reflections: Since cubemaps are fixed the level of light they reflect depends on their image rather than what's actually being reflected in a particular room. Playing with different blend modes for the reflection may give a better result, whatever you used here looks fantastic and seems like it should feel right in areas with different light levels.

[Arcturus]

I think I'm gonna slowly start updating characters and props, but it's going to take time.

[Arcturus]

Elite merc is one of the better looking NPCs in the game, but I think we can improve couple of things.

New material looks like this:

Spoiler

models/md5/chars/guards/merc_elite/merc_elite_armor
{
    qer_editorimage    models/md5/chars/guards/merc_elite/merc_elite_cloth_ed
    surftype15
    description "armor_plate"
    
    noShadows
    bumpmap addnormals(models/md5/chars/guards/merc_elite/merc_elite_local, heightmap( models/md5/chars/guards/merc_elite/merc_elite_cloth_h, 0.5 ) )
    {
    blend    diffusemap
    map        models/md5/chars/guards/merc_elite_cloth
    rgb        0.7
    }
    {
    blend    specularmap
    map        models/md5/chars/guards/merc_elite_cloth_s
    rgb 0.3
    }
    {
        forceHighQuality
        blend gl_dst_color, gl_src_color
        cubeMap env/studio_01/studio_01
        texgen reflect
        rgb 1.2
    }
}

I modified the specularmap slightly. Since he has a sword i updated that too:

The handle and blade use different cubemaps.

There's no reason why elite guards shouldn't have polished shoes.

Although the uv mapping on those is atrocious so don't look too closely. That's why the fronts of the soles are too shiny.

Importing and fixing the .md5 mesh in Blender is practically impossible because of this issue:

Not that I want to get into that. I think the excessive shininess of soles can be mitigated by creating a separate specularmap, as the boots and armor are in separate materials.

[MirceaKitsune]

100% a phenomenal improvement. Please let the next release have these... no, the next development snapshot for that matter Thanks again for picking up those materials and this chain of awesome and unexpected improvements to the graphics.

[Wellingtoncrab]

@Arcturus I am sorry but the elite armor looks significantly less like a metallic response and more like some kind of glass, polished stone, or clear coat. The reflections are too intense and uniform and that is obscuring and smoothing over detail you can see pretty clearly in the original imo.

It doesn’t really suit the material or look like an improvement yet to me. When the old material was on screen, your test lighting is actually quite flattering to the specular response, and my reaction was “that looks pretty good, I like that”.

Maybe dial down the intensity of the reflection, use something like a colored cubemap so you get a less neutral “glassy” reflection response, and try adding some masking?

[Arcturus]

The old one looks like this:

What I'm going for is this:

The latter is more appropriate for the "elite" armor. Does this look like glass too?

[Amadeus]

Even if you are going for a very shiny material, I don't think it's a good idea to overwrite the existing material. At the very least, a new material should be made, allowing mappers to choose if they want to use the legacy version or this one

[Arcturus]

Ok, fine.

[Wellingtoncrab]

 

24 minutes ago, Arcturus said:

The latter is more appropriate for the "elite" armor.

Pretty subjective. Looking at things like the rough details in the normal map, I don’t think that’s what the original model is intended to convey, but I guess I don’t know either.

It’s all subjective, but if that is what you are going for you are operating more in the territory of making a skin variant and the base material should remain intact, as I would consider yours to be more of an exception in terms of depictions of armor, which even when ornate, tend to have a more diffuse reflection:

Personally given the darker setting I would prefer to use the original.

[peter_spy]

49 minutes ago, Arcturus said:

Does this look like glass too?

It looks like super polished metal armor, taken out of the closet once a year to use in a tournament or battle reconstruction event. Very sterile look. I imagine that something a guard wears to work everyday would look much more dull and dirty. Dark Souls & Elden Ring armors are an awesome reference, the material work in particular.

[Arcturus]

This is original concept art, just as a fun fact. You guys clearly have different vision than I do so I'm not going to continue updating any assets.

[peter_spy]

For the record, that concept art is awesome!

[Arcturus]

Sorry, that's elite city watch.

[MirceaKitsune]

1 hour ago, Amadeus said:

Even if you are going for a very shiny material, I don't think it's a good idea to overwrite the existing material. At the very least, a new material should be made, allowing mappers to choose if they want to use the legacy version or this one

Not in this case: That would create a mess of needless AI skins, multiplying every clothing to have a shiny and non-shiny version. At least those changes absolutely need to be applied retroactively to the existing materials. If it's too much, I'm fine with toning the reflection down instead.

Edited November 29 by MirceaKitsune

[Wellingtoncrab]

13 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Not in this case: That would create a mess of further branching AI skins. At least this absolutely needs to be applied retroactively to the existing materials.

Yeah this is really getting out of hand:

[MirceaKitsune]

4 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

Yeah this is really getting out of hand:

The improvement isn't just for one type of guard: It's for all metals, including other armored guards such as city watch and builder armor as seen in a previous video... also loot, weapons such as the swords, etc. If we create a custom skin and entity for all of those just for a basic reflection effect, I think that would be out of hand if anything.

Some graphical improvements are meant to be universal; We didn't need to patch old missions when ambient occlusions or shadow maps were implemented just because there's a tiny difference to the way things used to look. If such a change could bother anyone, maybe we can have a cvar to toggle cubemap reflections universally, I'd find it comparatively cleaner and easier to manage.

[ChronA]

5 hours ago, peter_spy said:

It looks like super polished metal armor, taken out of the closet once a year to use in a tournament or battle reconstruction event. Very sterile look. I imagine that something a guard wears to work everyday would look much more dull and dirty.

Armor rusts, and the more you ignore the rust the faster the rust spreads. (Corrosion reactions scale with surface area, which is increased by rust flakes and scratches. A mirror polish minimizes surface area.) So if you neglected your armor so that it looked like those Fromsoft references, you would be buying a new suit of armor within a few years, and suddenly that captain-of-the-guard salary would be stretched pretty thin. Plus your employer would probably fire you for making him look like some pitiful hobo who hired a bandit to guard his house instead of a proper man-at-arms!

So yes, in a realistic setting, an elite guard like that would probably have armor that is polished to a mirror finish, because part of his job is in fact to care for his armor. That would include making sure that it is immaculately oiled and polished before putting it on.

That said, TDM is a fantasy game, and it's important to have a cohesive aesthetic to communicate the themes of the setting. One of the most common of those themes is the depravity and corruption of elites, and an easy way to communicate that visually is to put a thick layer of tarnish and grime on all their shiny trinkets. In contrast, to modern eyes mirror polished armor communicates vanity, grandiosity, and egomania, but not necessarily depravity. In that sense I agree that the new model should be a separate variant rather than replacing the default, so that FM authors can be intentional about how they use it.

[MirceaKitsune]

I can concede that the polished armor definitely looks too new: Most of those guards are presented as being old timers, not an army that just bought new armor straight from the factory and is wearing it for the first time that night. Hence why I'd tone down the effect, and use the specular channel as a mask to further reduce it and ensure the reflection isn't applied to areas that are rusted.

If the super shiny armor is to be turned into a new skin, I'm in favor of making a whole new outfit for polished armor guards: I don't think it's a good idea to create custom skins merely to enable an effect, rather they should be different enough to justify a new skin. I still think even for existing armor a very subtle cubemap should be applied, but agree the ultra-shiny one should be a new suit we could feature in the next release.

[peter_spy]

7 hours ago, ChronA said:

Armor rusts, and the more you ignore the rust the faster the rust spreads. (Corrosion reactions scale with surface area, which is increased by rust flakes and scratches. A mirror polish minimizes surface area.) So if you neglected your armor so that it looked like those Fromsoft references, you would be buying a new suit of armor within a few years, and suddenly that captain-of-the-guard salary would be stretched pretty thin. Plus your employer would probably fire you for making him look like some pitiful hobo who hired a bandit to guard his house instead of a proper man-at-arms!

So yes, in a realistic setting, an elite guard like that would probably have armor that is polished to a mirror finish, because part of his job is in fact to care for his armor. That would include making sure that it is immaculately oiled and polished before putting it on.

That said, TDM is a fantasy game, and it's important to have a cohesive aesthetic to communicate the themes of the setting. One of the most common of those themes is the depravity and corruption of elites, and an easy way to communicate that visually is to put a thick layer of tarnish and grime on all their shiny trinkets. In contrast, to modern eyes mirror polished armor communicates vanity, grandiosity, and egomania, but not necessarily depravity. In that sense I agree that the new model should be a separate variant rather than replacing the default, so that FM authors can be intentional about how they use it.

Hmm, that is a sound explanation to me But yeah, as you pointed out, we are so used to aesthetic conventions from other dark fantasy games, Souls and souls-likes included, that when something looks brand-new, we immediately get sceptical about it.

Another thing might be conventions and tricks used when making materials. Quite long ago, I've heard an advice regarding diffuse and specular texture relationship: first off, to take care about all kinds of damage and imperfections that can be seen from any angle, and these typically will be included on both textures: rust, heavy dirt, dry/wet parts, etc.

When you're done with that, think about imperfections that could go to specular texture only, things that are visible typically from acute/obtuse angles, with specular highlight doing its work most: dust, micro-scratches, fingerprints, minor water smudges, etc. That really makes a material look interesting

So I'm probably biased because of that, and, since artists in other games use these tricks really well too, when I see a material without a specular, or reflection without any mask, my first reaction is like ewww... But that's just me, I guess

[ChronA]

15 hours ago, MirceaKitsune said:

If the super shiny armor is to be turned into a new skin, I'm in favor of making a whole new outfit for polished armor guards

Just out of curiosity, do you have something specific in mind? Maybe a different helmet?

To my eyes the guy with the visible breast plate and cage helmet is just about at the right level of gear where you would expect a refined finish, and also at the point where adding more armor doesn't make much sense for daily guard duty. In fact, I'd even say gauntlets might be overkill.

For example, look at what the Swiss guard wear:

As a rule with plate armor, the further you go from the head and torso the more you get diminishing returns for both protection and practicality; even if admittedly gauntlets and grieves do look super cool.

[MirceaKitsune]

That is the type of armor / reflection I think would look good on existing materials: Subtle reflection but it's there, the armor still looks white-ish and worn out enough to feel like it's been used for some time.