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Lizz_Rydes

Bow complaint

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Hello there Dark Moders.

 

There is this issue ( not a game issue , rather a personal issue ) that I was wondering about.

 

I can't see any reason why a bow in your left hand should make you brighter.

I do like the fire arrow exposing you completely , but I do not like that all the other arrows make your character appear to be in a lighter area then he usually is with no gear equipped.

 

Can anyone ( Was hoping the Admins / Makers of the mod ) give me a logical explanation to why does this happen?

 

Its not a big deal really , I was just wondering to how does a bow on your back and bow in your hand make you any more visible in the shadows?


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I think one reason is that it was like this in the original thief games ;)

 

But to be honest, I don't think that there is a good explanation to it in terms of realism, but therefore in terms of gameplay. It's a stealth game, and therefore you should only draw your weapon, if you are going to use it. In splinter cell for example this was done by limiting your movement, and in thief and TDM this is done by increasing you lightgem value. It therefore makes sense to avoid that the player runs around with his weapon drawn all the time.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

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I think one reason is that it was like this in the original thief games ;)

 

But to be honest, I don't think that there is a good explanation to it in terms of realism, but therefore in terms of gameplay. It's a stealth game, and therefore you should only draw your weapon, if you are going to use it. In splinter cell for example this was done by limiting your movement, and in thief and TDM this is done by increasing you lightgem value. It therefore makes sense to avoid that the player runs around with his weapon drawn all the time.

 

Actually you made it a lot clearer to me , though I didn't understand why it was happening in Thief also. Good point on the Splinter Cell comparison , even though SC Conviction and Blacklist are just plain shooters... Thanks mate :)


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I guess they did it in thief for the same reasons. It's the same for example with the fact that you could kill an unalerted guard with one broadhead shot to the head, but needed several ones once he was alerted. Also not very realistic, but senseful in reference to gameplay.

 

A game developer once said: "Don't try to make a game too realistic. If reality would be so entertaining, people wouldn't play games."

 

I think this hits the nail on the head :)


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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My understanding is that the light gem doesn't just measure how lit up you are, but is an abstraction of your overall detectability. Light is probably the biggest contributor to detectability, but wielding a big bow might make you a little more noticeable too.

 

I actually like this feature a lot because it subtly encourages you to be meticulous and be smart about when you bring out the weapons. Instead of just running around armed all the time you have to focus on sneaking and then pick the right moment to bring the weapon out and make your move. It's one of those little things that adds to the feeling of beng a master thief, to me at least :)

Edited by Krypt
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I thought it was sound related, as moving with weapons drawn would make more sound, as AI can't hear your weapons being drawn or rustling while moving the light falling on the player increases by one. So you are more detectable. As the blackjack is a leather coated club it makes the same sound as your outfit so it doesn't increase the light falling on the player.

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I always figured it was due to the player having a larger silhouette (and who has random things holding bows/swords in dark corners of their mansion anyway?) and/or things like the sword catching tiny bits of light and reflecting them back out, which an empty patch of shadow shouldn't do.


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I guess they did it in thief for the same reasons. It's the same for example with the fact that you could kill an unalerted guard with one broadhead shot to the head, but needed several ones once he was alerted. Also not very realistic, but senseful in reference to gameplay.

 

A game developer once said: "Don't try to make a game too realistic. If reality would be so entertaining, people wouldn't play games."

 

I think this hits the nail on the head :)

 

Well, not to be devil's advocate here, but thats not as simple as that. There are more factors within "gameplay" than what the word might imply. Realism is what we would consider a gameplay rule. You then have the gameplay mechanics to work with, to balance out your rule and to make the game more/less challenging (= fun). Making combat highly deadly for example (where literally one swipe will kill you or the foe) is extremely fun, thats the whole reason I played Jedi Academy so many times (theres a simple var you can turn on to make the sabers insta-kill, but they are already pretty lethal). Combat had to be deadly, so they created a whole set of manouvers and things you can do before the fatal blow to make each fight really fun. Thats actually what drove me to TDM at the time. I saw some videos of the guy fighting and I was like, hey, hes into a pretty hard fight blocking and countering, but was able to beat the guy with the armor because of a clean hit on the head, which saved him, because more are coming. Thats a cool rule, and the multi dimensional combat system is a great balancing mechanics. Making AI more or less skilled at fighting would then be the last factor to tweek in order to make combat in TDM perfectly appropriate, within its own rules (adult-themed game, harsh and realistic environment).

 

Nobody wants to play a sneaking game where you cant run around and mantle in one breath, swim in seweage and come out smelling like nothing, or be able to carry more than a bag of coins and a couple of candle holders as maximun loot that fits your belt/backpack. That would be silly realism (though the sewer thing, could be fun to implement). But realism in areas like damage levels, accurate hit detection that allow you to put an arrow through the hole of a piece of armor, or AI that get killed/KOed by objects thrown at them, or can display all sorts of subtle levels of detection like they do now, those are awesome realistic features that should be only expanded, not simplified.

Edited by RPGista

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It's the same for example with the fact that you could kill an unalerted guard with one broadhead shot to the head, but needed several ones once he was alerted. Also not very realistic, but senseful in reference to gameplay.

 

An alternative to that would be to keep the rule (arrow to the head = death), keep the arrow flight realistic (no randomness of direction, it goes where you are aiming), tweek the "aiming bob" so as to make it slower and less accurate while you are charging the arrow. This would keep the bow always deadly, but only effective on desirable situations (gameplay wise, when you expect players to use it - by surprise, and not to rapid fire a group of charging guards before they can reach him). Kind of an outdated discussion though.

Edited by RPGista

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Making AI more or less skilled at fighting would then be the last factor to tweek in order to make combat in TDM perfectly appropriate

 

You know TDM AI do have skill levels already, right? :)

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Yes, of course my friend, its just my awkward english. It meant that having accurate hit detection, multi dimensional/directional combat system and AI that is good/fun at it, are the 3 single aspects that make TDM's melee system so cool and appropriate (regardless of its complexity, because one thing balances the other).

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I guess there was a little misunderstanding with my last post. Of course a game should be realistic in a way that the player gets immersed in the world and is able to understand its rules. And if realism and gameplay go hand in hand, like with the sword fight you've mentioned, than that's a good thing.

 

But sometimes there are aspects in game which are more benefiting to it if they are not realistic, and sometimes gameplay decisions are made without thinking much about realism. Not every aspect of a game must have an good explanation for why it is realistic, but it should have an explanation for why it is good gameplay-wise.

 

We are talking about a game, so gameplay is the most important thing. Realism is only needed to create the desired immersion and make the world believable.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Isn't the reasoning behind it that the bow is a kind of large object, maybe oiled in well so it's somewhat shiny? Rather than the blackjack which is a small, black object with no reflective properties whatsoever.

Edited by 161803398874989

You can call me Phi, Numbers, Digits, Ratio, 16, 1618, or whatever really, as long as it's not Phil.

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In the game, gameplay trumps realism.

 

In the reality, realism trumps gameplay.

 

Error.


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Isn't the reasoning behind it that the bow is a kind of large object, maybe oiled in well so it's somewhat shiny? Rather than the blackjack which is a small, black object with no reflective properties whatsoever.

 

I do have a theory that our thief here in the Dark Mod does put lotion on his bow , thus making him more visible in darkness.

It also occurred to me that he is like Edward Cullen? Maybe he draws his bow and starts sparkling in the dark. :X


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I've always thought of it as Krypt does; the gem is not just about light, but more of general visibility, including the shape and stance of my character. Shape and stance only influence it a little, movement some more and lightning most.

 

It's that simple.

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* Blackjack is small and dark. Can't really see this if you don't see the rest of the person holding it.

* Sword gleams in potential light, it's made of metal after all.

* Bow and arrow are generally harder to move around with than one of the above.

 

I think it's a game-balancing issue also. disadvantages vs advantages. Gotta have it or the game poops itself.

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Also, the bow completely changes your silhouette (less rounded shape etc.), so I do think that addressing this by making you brighter is the right way.


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I also thought size/shape. Obviously a thief would darken his/her bow, put soot on blade, but they are cumbersome and noisy. The light gem is simply a misnomer as it's more a potential detection meter. Stand and it brightens even if you stand so you are more obscured or in darker. I ironically find most of this more realistic! But yes, if there's no ramification to choices, it diminishes fun...that's one of the psychological elements of fun, control. Challenge and reward have to correlate too, so long range silent killing needs a cost. I think this is both why some make no killing an objective, and others ghost when they play.


"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Actually you made it a lot clearer to me , though I didn't understand why it was happening in Thief also. Good point on the Splinter Cell comparison , even though SC Conviction and Blacklist are just plain shooters... Thanks mate :)

 

They are not. You could make a case for Conviction, which I was quite disappointed in, but Blacklist is pretty good. It's definitely not like the old Splinter Cell games, I've been a fan for nearly a decade so I know that as well as anybody, but you definitely cannot say it is a plain shooter. The game is actually fairly ghostable without using crazy techniques that are necessary if you want to ghost Conviction. It's tough at times (Iran is surprisingly the most difficult level in the game I think), but at least now it is based mostly around stealth. Sure, there are a lot of missions that require you to incapacitate or kill enemies and there are some action scenes but Blacklist is a step in the right direction; Loved that game. Oh, it has plenty of flaws but none of them are so severe that they detract from the experience. Really the only thing that bugged me consistently was the fact that it is impossible to holster your weapon. It's such a small point but it really makes a huge difference to me to have the option to have my weapon out or not.

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Really the only thing that bugged me consistently was the fact that it is impossible to holster your weapon.

 

I don't agree with you cause' well I even found Conviction to be more stealthy on realistic then Blacklist. Blacklist really gives you an option to shoot your way through so you really can't screw up if seen by your enemies. And about the holstering of weapons , Conviction gave me that option , Blacklist didn't , and that really really bothered me as well.

 

But this is a Dark Mod topic , not SC topic , so lets keep it in Dark Mod shall we? :)


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I think that the thief shouldn't have a sword... just a dagger.

A sword is pretty cumbersome for sneaking or climbing. Especially with trying to carry so much loot.

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A dagger is pretty pointless in a fight against a guard with a sword, or a zombie, or even a giant spider, all of which our thief goes up against on a regular basis.

 

Arguments based on size have never made much sense to me, since the character already carries a bow, a quiver full of dozens of arrows, and a bag full of candlesticks, vases and trophies. I'm sure he can manage a shortsword too.

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A dagger is pretty pointless in a fight against a guard with a sword, or a zombie, or even a giant spider, all of which our thief goes up against on a regular basis.

 

Arguments based on size have never made much sense to me, since the character already carries a bow, a quiver full of dozens of arrows, and a bag full of candlesticks, vases and trophies. I'm sure he can manage a shortsword too.

 

This is one of the many examples in gaming where added realism can only do harm to the experience. I'm quite critical of weight systems and inventory slots in games where it is done for the sake of realism and not because the story demands it. Does anybody enjoy doing 2-3 round trips in RPGs because the game won't let them carry the loot for example? All I feel is frustration at the game impeding my enjoyment in such a way. Then there are games like Metal Gear Solid where you can carry a dozen firearms and enough ammo for an entire squad, 50 grenades, 2-3 non-collapsed cardboard boxes and god knows how many pieces of miscellaneous equipment/quest items - and yet it doesn't even matter a little bit because the game tells an amazing story and the gameplay is highly appreciable. I don't even mean superficially enjoyable (the game is tough), but genuinely pleasing aesthetically and all that. I think it's necessary when you're thinking of adding something to the game purely so that it is more realistic that you ask yourself: will this improve the experience?

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Well, using an inventory restriction in a FM may be an interesting experience, but only if it makes sense story-wise. At the point where loot gets into it, it starts getting complicated. But if you have for example a FM where you don't play a thief, and don't have loot, and have to play in a style were your equipment is crucial to proceed, it may lead to interesting decisions. Do I take the water arrow, or a flashbomb instead?

 

But however, for the typical TDM gameplay this may not be very senseful.

 

And I agree that those discussions about whether the player should carry a sword or a dagger, or whatever else bothers some people, gets very annoying over the time. If you think the character should carry a dagger, make a FM and give him one blood-damnit.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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