Blackjacking hit detection

[AluminumHaste]

Oh I just saw your update didn't know that must be new. Well you can use msi afterburner which comes with Riva tuner statistics server which can also do video capture and that one is free.

[RJFerret]

Camstudio (audio depends on your system).

[chakkman]

Thanks, i will try that. I saw that Xfire can also be used for capturing video, so that's another option.

[chakkman]

Ok, just gave it a go in the same mission, at the same spot, with the same guard i thought i had noticed some disregularities with. But in fact, it worked just as expected. I think i had problems the first time, because the guard spotted me in my corner, as it was wearing a lantern, and the light hit me, and it just turned around with the sword drawn a bit delayed, so i thought he might have heard, while in fact he had seen me. Also i guess the surface, which was standing water, could have lead to the guard being full alerted, when i approached him in normal walking speed from behind. Anyway, it seems like it's all working, so sorry for the confusion. Blackjacking also worked just fine now.

 

Oh, and i case it is of interest, capturing video with Xfire works quite well. The quality isn't the best though, but should be fine in most cases. The video was also a quite lot brighter than my ingame settings were.

Edited April 8, 2014 by chk772

[wesp5]

Okay, I just did a quick test of my problems again and uploaded a video using FRAPS to GameFront, the link is below. It seems to me that the moment the guard hears me he slips into attack ready mode and is invincible to blackjacking although I can easily hit him several times before he even starts to draw his sword. This is what makes no sense to me! Maybe it would be better to just insert a short delay here until he actually starts to pull out his weapon...

 

http://www.gamefront.com/files/24162305/TheDarkMod+2014-04-08+21-46-16-40.avi

[Springheel]

The video is too dark to make out what's happening, but I don't hear the guard give any indication that he heard you. Sounds like he's being alerted by you hitting him. Without being able to see, it's likely that you're too close and you're hitting him with your elbow.

[wesp5]

I don't believe the elbow stuff and even if I did, there is still a lot of time before he even reaches for his sword in which he is invincible to my hits. He takes one from behind and two from the front, this just looks wrong when even the Wiki says (helmeted guards cannot be knocked out when their weapon is out). Well, as the video shows, his weapon is far from being out at all...

[Springheel]

When AI become alerted, they become more difficult to knock out. Having their weapon out is a sign that they're alerted, but the reason they're harder to knock out is because they're aware of trouble, not because their weapon is out (though the wiki is a little misleading on this point).

 

It would make far less sense for them to become magically immune just because they've drawn a weapon.

[AluminumHaste]

Just watched the video and you are too close and screwed up the blackjack. Simple as that.

Stand a foot further away at least.

[grayman]

Looks like you hit his left shoulder.

 

In general, try staying a little farther away from them when you blackjack. You do have a bit of a reach available to you; you don't need to be close to make it happen.

[New Horizon]

Yeah, definitely whacked the guy on the shoulder. The knockout cone wouldn't extend that far on a helmeted guard.

 

As for not believing the elbow stuff...what is not to believe? There are collision boxes on all of the ingame animated object. If the collision box on the elbow hits the AI that would count as an impact.

 

Perhaps now that we have the source code, we could look into the possibility of making the elbow non-solid to AI when swinging the black jack. Not sure if that can be done though.

[chakkman]

Just watched the video and you are too close and screwed up the blackjack. Simple as that.

Stand a foot further away at least.

Just found that out too, playing a mission. While i mess up 50% of the knockouts when i'm standing close, when i stay a bit further behind, it's a 100% knockout. Think i'm getting closer to finally mastering the blackjack, after 30+ missions...

[wesp5]

Perhaps now that we have the source code, we could look into the possibility of making the elbow non-solid to AI when swinging the black jack.

 

That would be great, because to be honest, how could a thief fail blackjacking someone because he is too close or hits him with his elbow? This is bad game mechanics right there! Has someone ever checked out the valid distance right now from the side? Would this work? Also even if I hit his shoulder, how come he doesn't go down with the next hit on the head? Yeah, because he magically became immune now. That's makes little sense either! It's different when the weapon is drawn because he then moves in a crouched way where hitting his head isn't easily possible anymore, but before? Please at least try out how this would work with a delay until the weapon is actually drawn. Even if you don't want to make that the default way, you could add it in when you add the additional alert states in the next version...

Edited April 9, 2014 by wesp5

[Lux]

If you have a good 3D sense of distance, it is pretty close to an outstretched arm length with a bit of a bent elbow. Those that don't aren't good at blackjacking initially and IMO its not a broken mechanic at all.

 

In most modern games you do something and you get an achievement. YAY!

 

In TDM, you do something until you master doing it there by "becoming" the master thief. When you can do something with predictability and repeatability you have "achieved" mastery in that ability. Do you need a Steam achievement to tell you that or is it rewarding enough knowing for yourself that you have mastered blackjacking/mantling/shooting arrows because you are a practiced thief?

 

TDM is based on principles that were rock solid in older games and that newer games have ruined in favor of audience adaption. The game isn't trying to get new players. New players are trying to master the game.

 

IMO the mechanic is perfect the way it is. 100% success isn't guaranteed in life, or TDM, without pRACTICe... learn the game, that's my feeling.

[wesp5]

If you have a good 3D sense of distance, it is pretty close to an outstretched arm length with a bit of a bent elbow.

 

But the issue here is that there is only one correct blackjacking distance right now, as if the player could only bent his elbow to a certain degree and never hit anything closer. While I can understand that this is limitated by the animation, it doesn't carry over as wrong if you are too close because it looks the same. So extending the cone, or however this is done, to reflect this would be a possible fix! Also to me the magical invulnerability breaks immersion pretty much anyway. Either you can knock out someone wearing a helmet or you cannot, regardless of alert state or direction. With maybe the exception of a drawn weapon due to the stance...

[Lux]

That post doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't need fixed, IMO.

 

You can't get any force through an arm swing if your arm is bent in and not extended most the way. An an extreme example would be...T-Rex arms?

Edited April 9, 2014 by Lux

[Springheel]

But the issue here is that there is only one correct blackjacking distance right now

 

Well yes. The correct distance is the distance where your blackjack actually hits the AI in the head (or the back of the neck for AI with helmets).

 

Arguing that this is unrealistic is correct and pointless--as pointless as arguing that only being able to swing your sword in 4 directions is unrealistic, or that only being able to crouch to a single set height is unrealistic.

 

It would be nice if there was an easier way to communicate how far away from the player the blackjack goes when they swing, but on a 2d monitor this is difficult. It's just something you have to learn, like learning how far you can jump and how close to the edge of something you can get before falling off.

[Xarg]

It makes about as much sense to me as games usually only giving 1 hit kills with headshots, even though with the right angle you could tumble a bullet through a lung and the heart, if not both lungs, or drive shattered ribs into the heart, but we all accept that you have to aim for the head. I don't see a relatively precise blackjack area and distance as anything different to bullets go in the head. Practice makes perfect, not too many FPS virgins pick up a mouse and score headshots all day long on their first try, why would blackjacking be any different?

[grayman]

Are y'all enjoying your time in the rat hole?

 

If so, carry on.

 

If not, go do something productive.

[wesp5]

You can't get any force through an arm swing if your arm is bent in and not extended most the way.

 

Uh, ever seen some boxing? I'm not into this at all, but a hook is as powerful as a straight hit AFAIK.

 

The correct distance is the distance where your blackjack actually hits the AI in the head (or the back of the neck for AI with helmets).

 

So if I am closer what happens? I hit the AI with the base of the blackjack or the arm because my character has only this one fixed-arm-distance strike? I can understand that this is an animation problem, but why can't you just prolong the hitbox a little bit back into the arm to simulate that your character adjusted his arm while hitting?

 

Practice makes perfect, not too many FPS virgins pick up a mouse and score headshots all day long on their first try, why would blackjacking be any different?

 

That's not a good comparison. Rather like in the new Thief when you aim an arrow at the head of an unsuspecting guard you can make a headshot, but if you do the same when he is alerted you magically will never hit his head! The same goes for the helmeted guards, tell me what you want, alerting them is magically making them immune.

 

Mind you, I still love backjacking in TDM and usually don't kill anybody when not necessary, but because this is my favorite style, the more I play the more obvious the problems behind it became. I can live with like it is right now, but as this is a great free game still in development, I figured I could ask if this could be improved. My two suggestions here, closer-hit-distance-valid and alert-going-invincible-delay could probably be implemented just by changing two specific integers somewhere, no?

Edited April 9, 2014 by wesp5

[AluminumHaste]

So you're going to be one of those people huh. We've had them before, they aren't a master at a particular skill and want it changed to suite their view of how it should work.

Unlikely to happen, it's too easy as it is.

You've been told what you are doing wrong, adjust your tactics accordingly.

[New Horizon]

So you're going to be one of those people huh. We've had them before, they aren't a master at a particular skill and want it changed to suite their view of how it should work.

Unlikely to happen, it's too easy as it is.

You've been told what you are doing wrong, adjust your tactics accordingly.

 

Hey! Lets check the attitude at the door, ok?

 

I was doing some tests last night and there is definitely room for issues with the way the ko cones are handled.

 

I can't get into full detail right now, I'm at work, but until then...can we knock off the 'you're doing it wrong' stuff. As I learned the last time when the blackjack collision models were out of alignment, never assume that we're always right.

[nbohr1more]

There's a certain amount of defensiveness around this issue because we've had a history of folks like TTLG regulars claim that

TDM's Blackjack is problematic only to find they've never tried TDM or had a history of negative comments about the project.

 

Sensitivity is currently very high as we are in Square Enix astro-turfing season.

 

Any shortcoming in TDM is an opportunity for them to discredit us when users compare us favorably to their product.

 

In summary, Grayman probably has the best comment until the whole TEEF mania settles down...

[AluminumHaste]

Hey! Lets check the attitude at the door, ok?

 

Fine, I shall.

[chakkman]

There's a certain amount of defensiveness around this issue because we've had a history of folks like TTLG regulars claim that

TDM's Blackjack is problematic only to find they've never tried TDM or had a history of negative comments about the project.

 

Sensitivity is currently very high as we are in Square Enix astro-turfing season.

 

Any shortcoming in TDM is an opportunity for them to discredit us when users compare us favorably to their product.

 

In summary, Grayman probably has the best comment until the whole TEEF mania settles down...

I don't think this is about trolling, or talking down anyone's work. I find this mod outstanding, and even better than the original Thief's. It's just that the blackjacking is a bit difficult. The "sweet spot", the distance you have to keep from someone to blackjack him, seems a bit narrow, that's all. I would have expected that it would work nearer to your enemy. Also, it seems to differ from guards without helmets, which are KO'able from nearer distance (it seems) than for guards with helmets, for which you have to keep a larger distance. Might be wrong, but that was my impression. Actually, i'm not even sure, how many people really blackjack in this game. From what i hear, many people are ghosting, thus probably never even unpack the blackjack. So maybe they won't realize that it's a bit problematic. Anyway, surely no deal breaker for me, but something i always had issues with, since i started playing this mod.