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Any overclocking gurus around?


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#1 STiFU

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 01:27 PM

I finally got myself a new PC. (Well except for a new graphics card, because they are way too expensive right now.)

Anywho, I've got a problem with my RAM. I can't get it to run on its XMP profile (3200MHz, 16-16-16-36). It's not even working at 2600 MHz, which Intel guarantees to be working with their new coffee lake processor generation. The RAM is on the official compatibility list of that mainboard. Here are my specs:

i7 8700K

ASrock Z370 Killer

Patriot Memory 16 GB DDR4 3200 MHz (PV416G320C6K)

 

And here is what I've tried so far:

-Use only one module (in Slot A2) with XMP: works!!
-Use two modules with XMP but not in Dual Channel mode (Slots A2 and B1): No!
-Use two modules with XMP in dual channel (Slots A2 and B2): No!
-Increase DRAM voltage upto 1.5V: No!
-Manually set the parameters as advertised on the RAM, i.e., 3200 Mhz, 16-16-16-36, 1.35V: No!
-Manually set the parameters to 2600 Mhz, 16-16-16-36, 1.35V: No!

 

Does anybody have some advice for me?



#2 lowenz

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:00 PM

Lastest BIOS firmware version?


Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#3 duzenko

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:55 PM

I have a 6600K and I kinda gave up and stuck to 2700MHz and CR1 (advertized xmp 3200).

The only work around I can think of is testing other hardware until you find one that works.



#4 Bikerdude

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 07:10 PM

I can't get it to run on its XMP profile (3200MHz, 16-16-16-36). It's not even working at 2600 MHz, which Intel guarantees to be working

  1. The 8700 only offcially supports DDR4-2666, I can unequivocally and categoricity state there is negligible benefit from having ram faster than this. I personally would just run non-xmp profile (with  tighter timings if it will work), your ram runs at 15-15-15-36 @2133 so I would start there with a smidge more volatage if it needs it (but check the ram support over volting).
  2. On the above link Patriot don't specify support for anything higher then the 200 series chipset, despite what Asrock are stating in their QVL list. So log a support ticket with both Patriot and Asrock, it sounds like Lowenz said, you need an updated bios for the motherboard.
  3. Reading the manual for the you mobo, for dual channel operation you should be using slots A1/B1 and then A2/B2


#5 STiFU

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 03:28 AM

Thanks for the answers. Bios is up to date and the manual says to use A2/B2 instead of A1/B1 (I also found that info on their forums so that should be correct). Also, I cannot use A1 B1 because the cooler is too big! :D

 

I successfully tested 15-15-15-36 @ 2400 using memtest86 last night.

 

Where do I check for that maximum voltage for the RAM? I already tried to find that yesterday and the only info I could find is that XMP specifies a maximum of 1.5V in general.



#6 teh_saccade

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 03:35 AM

Memtest each stick in slot 1.

Flash new BIOS.

As biker says - use correct slots for dual channel.

Drop to 1.2v or switch XMP profile 2 - ought to support 1.35v.

Ignore rated and go with supported.

Hope the over-voltage hasn't damaged.

If not - try to set XMP manually, timings, frequency and voltage or disable.

Personally, I question the need to overclock. Generally leads to overspending for minimal gain.

 

// oh you've done it. 1.5v is max, but 1.2/1.35. What's displayed is rated, not recommended or supported. 2666mhz is decent. You're only going to get single channel if you don't use a1/b1.


Edited by teh_saccade, 18 February 2018 - 03:42 AM.


#7 Judith

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 03:50 AM

Actually, guys from Digital Foudry proved some time ago that having high MHz RAM improves framerate, so if you might want to have that if your machine is gaming-oriented.



#8 Bikerdude

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:18 AM

Actually, guys from Digital Foudry proved some time ago that having high MHz RAM improves framerate,

Yes but buy only a few fps, not enough to warrant the amount of time and effort.

 



#9 Bikerdude

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 06:21 AM

  • Also, I cannot use A1 B1 because the cooler is too big! :D
  • I successfully tested 15-15-15-36 @ 2400 using memtest86 last night.
  • Where do I check for that maximum voltage for the RAM? I already
  • Change the cooler or the ram, so you can use the other slots, ok I was looking at the manual for a ASrock Z370 Killer sli, so it must be subtley different.
  • Good.
  • Patriots support forum.


#10 Judith

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 07:12 AM

Yes but buy only a few fps, not enough to warrant the amount of time and effort.

 

Not really, it depends on the game and how the game uses the CPU cores. Since you don't switch mobo/CPU/RAM too often, it's better to have highest RAM clock speed you can afford to pair with your CPU. If you plan to overclock your CPU later, lower RAM speed, like 2133, can actually limit your ability to do that. At least when it comes to games that is:

 

obraz.png


Edited by Judith, 18 February 2018 - 08:43 AM.


#11 chakkman

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 11:15 AM

That surprises me. I always thought that RAM speed is pretty neglectable too.

 

I play TW 3 at the moment, BTW. Can only dream about the frame rates displayed there... :( This machine is 3 1/2 years old or so, already hopelessly outdated.


Edited by chakkman, 18 February 2018 - 11:15 AM.


#12 Bikerdude

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 11:59 AM

it's better to have highest RAM clock speed you can afford to pair with your CPU. If you plan to overclock your CPU later, lower RAM speed, like 2133, can actually limit your ability to do that. At least when it comes to games that is:

yes and no, the issue is when overclocking your mileage will vary. For example the screenshot above is highly subjective, to get a 8700k to 5ghz and above will need an above average water loop and a more expensive board than StiFU is running. Also both issues are highly dependent on the make/model of motherboard, once you start overclocking things go out of compatibility very quickly.



#13 Judith

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 12:16 PM

It's not subjective, they always use the same tests, the same tools and the same set of other components to see where the true difference is. The example above shows that you don't have to overclock your CPU, you can just pair it with proper mobo and higher clock speed for ram, and you get 20-30 FPS more, which is not just a few FPS. Sure, it doesn't matter now now, as you won't see the difference between 120 and 150 FPS visually. But that difference will matter in a few years, and the idea is to have that base valid for as long as you can (7-10 years).



#14 STiFU

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 02:13 PM

So, seeing that I couldn't increase the clock of the memory, I figured I'll try to squeeze out as much as possible via the timings. Every night and workday, I ran memtest86 using more and more tight timings and I finally ended up with 13-14-14-30 (original value: 15-15-15-36). As you can probably already tell by the values, the gain in memory latency is neglectable.
 
So, I orderned another pair of RAM modules today. :-D This time Corsair Vengence LPX 3200 MHz CL16-18-18-36. Let's see how those perform... :-)
 

The example above shows that you don't have to overclock your CPU, you can just pair it with proper mobo and higher clock speed for ram, and you get 20-30 FPS more, which is not just a few FPS.

Yeah, that's what I got from the screenshot, too. Incredible gain! I can only dream about that right now. Z370 is just still way too new. Asrock gots to get their ass up and get me some proper firmware upgrade! :-D

I wonder though why they disabled hairworks for that screenshot. Probably not the best graphicscard or something.

#15 Judith

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 04:22 PM

I don't know about Asrock quality now, but I always avoided them like hell. Gigabyte might seem overpriced a bit, but not even once did their mobo died or malfunctioned in my machine. Also, I try not to buy the cheapest mobo avaliable. Maybe it's the marketing thing, but I fear that going for the cheapest mobo along with spending cash on newest CPU or GPU is like having a ferrari engine, but suspension of golf III ;)

 

 

I wonder though why they disabled hairworks for that screenshot. Probably not the best graphicscard or something.

 

It might be for compatibility reasons, e.g. if they're testing nvs against radeons, although they usually have it off in all tests. AFAIR, for CPU tests they use something like Pascal Titan X, just to be sure GPU isn't a bottleneck.

 

This is the original video:

 



#16 STiFU

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 01:37 AM

I got 2 asrock boards so far. No problems with the first, the second we'll see. ;-) But as I said, z370 is comparatively new. So it's no wonder it all doesn't work right of the bat. Also, z370 boards are crazy expensive. For this one, the reviews were quite good and it's still affordable.

Generally though, I am thinking, what makes a good motherboard good? The main functionality is defined and set in stone by the Chipset. So, mainboards basically only vary in their basic features, e.g., how many USB and SATA connectors you have, does it have WIFI on board, etc. Why should I pick a premium board, just to get some more features I will never use?

#17 Judith

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 02:36 AM

Generally though, I am thinking, what makes a good motherboard good?

 

For me, it's not that much about the amount of options, but more about durability of components, quality of materials etc. Still, I can only rely on what's written on the box, or mentioned in reviews.



#18 STiFU

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 12:47 PM

Yeah, I used to think like that, too. However, seeing that nowaways everyone tries to produce their stuff as cheap as possible in order to be marketable, I firmly believe that it's all the same crap you're getting, just a different label. As an example, look at how many of the electrolytic capacitors in Samsung products broke down after a two to three years of use. Well, at least those can be replaced easily. :-)

Durability of components can only ever be evaluated in long-term tests, which no reviewer ever conducts. Why would they? The results of a long-term test are not relevant anymore when you finally got them, because the board won't be on sale anymore. ^^

Anyway, going way off-topic here. I'll plug in the new RAMs in a few minutes. Whish me luck! ;-)
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#19 Abusimplea

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 04:02 PM

Durability of components can only ever be evaluated in long-term tests, which no reviewer ever conducts.

You can see, whether heatsinks are where they should be or whether the capacitors are no-name and of low temperature range. You might be able to see, whether the board layout is somewaht sane.

But yes, there is not that much of a gap between current mainboards anymore. Looks like the market matured a bit (let's just ignore all that RGB LED and spoiler crap, that some of the "enthusiast" boards feature now).

I still read reviews and visually inspect pictures of a board carefully, before i buy.

And if you want a non-mainstream feature set (like AM4, mini-ITX, 2 GbE, DP) - you might not even find it if you look really carefully. ;)


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#20 lowenz

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 03:54 AM

Edit: wrong thread, pardon!


Edited by lowenz, 22 February 2018 - 04:02 AM.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#21 stumpy

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 10:25 AM

just don't get ram 'made in china' as it fails 80 percent of the time. I got two lots of ram that just failed on use, one set melted into the mother board and the other set caused lots of crashes. And that was before trying to overclock them.



#22 STiFU

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Posted 22 February 2018 - 01:11 PM

I got the Corsairs now and heard back from ASrock. Apparently, the Corsairs aren't perfect either. Here is what I wrote to Asrock now, to get you up to speed.

I have returned the Patriot memory modules, as I didn't see that going anywhere, but please bear with me, my issue is apparently not yet solved.

 

The Patriot modules were already my second try. Before, I had G Skill RipJaws V 3200 CL16 and now I have got 2 x Corsair Vengence LPX 3200 CL16 (CMK16GX4M2B3200C16). While the Patriots were total crap, the G Skill and Corsair Vergence could at least be bootet with XMP 2.0. However, both of the latter misbehaved in the same way: After some intensive computational tasks, the PC would periodically briefly freeze for a few seconds and eventually crash. A quicker indicator of their misbehaving is launching the newest 3D Mark: After a minute or two, the Benchmark will cancel with the message "Canceled by user", although I did nothing of the sorts.

 

My only (temporary) solution to this problem is setting the RAM frequency to 2400 MHz or less. It is not even working at 2666 Mhz, which is supposed to be the new coffee lake standard frequency, according to Intel. I ran Memtest86 on the Corsairs using XMP for 9 hours today, with no errors. So, the memory is stable. I have also tried to disable all special CPU-Features, patched the firmware to P1.40 (supplied by you), removed the graphics card, unplugged all USB devices, unplugged all non-mandatory HDDs. No luck here!

 

Seeing that I have observed the same kind of behavior with two different RAM modules now, I strongly suspect it is an issue with the Mainboard. So, how can we move on from here? Can you send me a new one? Do you have further suggestions for tests for me?



#23 Bikerdude

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 05:58 AM

Have you tried Kingston or Crucial, they IMHO are far from reliable and compatible.

 

Regarding the board, do you mind if I ask what you paid for it..? I am because I would like to have a look online and see if I can find you a better branded mobo for the same money.


Edited by Bikerdude, 23 February 2018 - 05:58 AM.


#24 STiFU

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 03:25 PM

Well, I can't return the board anymore, sooooo. But it was 135€.



#25 Bikerdude

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 03:42 PM

Well, I can't return the board anymore, sooooo. But it was 135€.

Ah, hence hoping Asrock will replace it with a new one.






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