where are the missions localization/how now works the localization system

[gnartsch]

Tels server holds pretty much every missions, but to me it looks like it has only the initial packages to get the translators going.

Comparing which translations have been actually included in the l10-pk4's, I see a large gap to what is claimed as 'done' on the Translation-Progress Wiki.

So,... what is the place where translators were asked to put their finished translations to?

[demagogue]

I know Patently Dangerous was translated into at least French & Russian (and IIRC one or more others) because the translators contacted me directly to ask for permission & questions. And I recall they did that for a few other FMs too. This was way back at the beginning when translators just rewrote the .xm files & released new translated .pk4s that they put up on their respective forums. So you can maybe find translations done for a number of missions that route... which is aside from getting them i18n ready.

 

Edit: Incidentally, if I wanted to translate the core mod to Japanese, how would I go about it? I can see the wiki entry for FMs, but is there one for the mod itself?

Edit2: Ah, well first it seems TDM needs the fonts for it (& contrary to what the Charset wiki says, Japanese doesn't need to go top-bottom. It can be written left-right like European languages as well. So the same gui could be used)

[grayman]

So,... what is the place where translators were asked to put their finished translations to?

 

Echelon would probably know that.

[ECHELON]

Mmm yes, i can answer a lot of questions and i know perfectly how i18n works.

 

The link tels gave contains the translations and the 1.08 converted missions. This convertion work was done parallel with the "normal" missions because a lot of mappers was not interested of the convertion/translations so the files stayed separately.

 

Now, as I mentioned before, to get this translations work we need to convert each mission to i18n system and then the translations will work. But there are several problems:

 

-first, should be create a "link" between the converted 2.0 numbers and the translations numbers.

-second, if a mapper have to update a mission he should reconvert it to work again with translation.

 

We could do a try: choose a mission 2.0 (from the translated missions), i convert it and test the translation.

 

p.s. if every mapper convert their missions, the work will be "small" because is distributed among many people.

Edited October 27, 2013 by ECHELON

[ECHELON]

Echelon would probably know that.

 

the translations could be in every server. The important thing is that the mission pk4 and the i18n file are in the same folder when you play.

[ECHELON]

Ok, so i've done a test with one mission: house in blackbog hollow.

 

I've take the 2.0, converted and then linked the strings to the translation. Now the translation works. Here's the two files:

 

http://www.mediafire...c00sy4fdjw1avkd

http://www.mediafire...eldvsbnvlard7n9

 

Now, the dilemma is will these converted missions be inserted in place of "non-converted" missions? otherwise we are in a deadlock.

 

I want to clarify that the converted mission can run fine without the translation package, so it is equal to a mission is not converted but with extended functionality

Edited October 28, 2013 by ECHELON

[Bikerdude]

I want to clarify that the converted mission can run fine without the translation package, so it is equal to a mission is not converted but with extended functionality

I beleive this is the case.

[Springheel]

Now, the dilemma is will these converted missions be inserted in place of "non-converted" missions? otherwise we are in a deadlock.

 

Didn't we have a big long thread a year ago where mappers who wanted to gave their permission for their missions to be translated?

[nbohr1more]

Yep, it's linked in the wiki:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/12863-translating-the-tdm-gui

[Springheel]

I don't think that was the one I was thinking of. There was one specifically devoted to mappers giving their permission to have their missions translated. I remember it well, as Sotha and I took a great deal of heat for not allowing our original mission files to be altered.

[7upMan]

Didn't we have a big long thread a year ago where mappers who wanted to gave their permission for their missions to be translated?

 

Oh yes, we did. The thing is that right now, the translator has to do the whole job as described above (changing the string lines into placeholders, extracting them, translating them etc.). There is no workflow in Dark Radiant that encourages the mapper to use placeholders instead of strings. As you are aware, some missions rely heavily on readables, so it is quite a hassle. I do NOT want to start the discussion anew, but at least for me, the whole process was discouraging enough to not bother with translation anymore.

 

I think it would help a lot if l10n would be integrated into the mapping process itself, as I described above. That would still leave a lot to do for the translator, but it would ease the burden a little.

[ECHELON]

Oh yes, we did. The thing is that right now, the translator has to do the whole job as described above (changing the string lines into placeholders, extracting them, translating them etc.). There is no workflow in Dark Radiant that encourages the mapper to use placeholders instead of strings. As you are aware, some missions rely heavily on readables, so it is quite a hassle. I do NOT want to start the discussion anew, but at least for me, the whole process was discouraging enough to not bother with translation anymore.

 

I think it would help a lot if l10n would be integrated into the mapping process itself, as I described above. That would still leave a lot to do for the translator, but it would ease the burden a little.

 

Yes, the best result would be darkradiant produce directly converted mission so that both translator and mapper don't do any more work, even if the mission is updated.

 

Then, is your choose if you want to be converted/translated missions but remember this is the last time i give my availability to help with i18n project. If you, dark mod developers, are not interested of i18n simply tell me and i return to my previous commitments. But in this case is over for me the partnership with dark mod team.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ECHELON

[nbohr1more]

Yes, one of the problems is that the converted mission is no longer easily edited by mappers using the GUI Editor in DR.

 

An abstraction in DR that makes this invisible to mappers would be quite helpful...

[demagogue]

Does someone want to make a feature request for that on the DR tracker that can articulate it well?

[stumpy]

its that, correcting what look like spelling mistakes when they are intentional spelling mistakes because they're clue's to hidden objectives with in the map, is the thing I don't like about the translations.

 

I really object to one of my maps being translated and messed with without getting asked about it first.

Edited October 30, 2013 by stumpy

[7upMan]

stumpy, I don't think anyone would really do that. I for one always first asked for the mapper's permission to t/l the FM.

[ECHELON]

its that, correcting what look like spelling mistakes when they are intentional spelling mistakes because they're clue's to hidden objectives with in the map, is the thing I don't like about the translations.

 

I really object to one of my maps being translated and messed with without getting asked about it first.

 

 

However, how 7upMan said, if you don't want that your mission will be translated, simply say No. The translators will go ahead with other missions.

Edited October 31, 2013 by ECHELON

[rich_is_bored]

What language offers the best experience is of no consequence to people who can't read it. And permission is of no consequence to those who have no respect for it. TDM is too open and unrestrictive to leave the matter to temptation. There will be those who see the lack of a translation as a call to action. It's best to entrust the task to someone who at least respects you enough to ask. If an officially sanctioned translation exists, there is no reason to seek one out or create one yourself.

[7upMan]

What language offers the best experience is of no consequence to people who can't read it.

 

Absolutely. Also, we know that with the release of TDM 2.0, Poland and Germany have the highest number of downloads, and people from both countries aren't necessarily the best English speakers in the world, as opposed to, say, Scandinavians or the Benelux countries. Southern Europeans have their issue with the English language too, so most subtle stuff or puns are completely lost for any of them. t might just be me, but I think reaching out to these people is better than them deleting their copy of TDM simply for the lack of missions in their native language.

[demagogue]

Not just puns. A lot of hints in readables are subtle uses of English, like implications that are easy to miss when it's not your first language. I still think translators ought to ask for permission of course, but I'd personally encourage mappers to be very open in allowing it, and to give the translator latitude to translate it the best way that works for the target language. I've seen so many examples before of strict translations that might be more by the book, but it reads stilted and dull. It's the job of the translator to let it sparkle in the target language too.

 

For the record, I love the version of whoever translated my FM into French. There are so many dark & foreboding readables in mine; somehow reading them in French was a lot more fun than I expected.

[Springheel]

And permission is of no consequence to those who have no respect for it.

 

The missions ultimately have to be hosted by us (unless people don't want them available from the in game downloader, and then people can spread around whatever bootleg copies they want), and I doubt we're going to host anything that was modified against the original author's wishes.

[rich_is_bored]

You don't have to support it in an official capacity. The game is open source.

[Springheel]

I'm not sure how that negates what I said above.

[ECHELON]

The main thing i'm asking here is that the darkradiant produces the converted mission (it is equal as the original and not modified from external people).

 

Then, if someone want to translate the mission, simply ask the mapper the permission and do the translation.

 

This way there are NO problems because the mission is converted automatically by the dark radiant and the translator do his work only with permission.

 

Is this realizzable?

Edited October 31, 2013 by ECHELON

[Springheel]

We don't really have anyone working on DR full time, so I'm not sure what the likelihood of this is. Should be added to the tracker, though.