The Dark Mod 2.0 first impressions

[Thedarkbunny]

don't think you can cast light with the moon as its a projected image from a skybox in a closed off area away from the main map. and there isn't a physical representative object in the main map for the moon as far as I know.

 

In cryengine, you can have a sun (which I'm pretty sure you can turn into a moon). Anyway, probably way too complex to implement.

[nbohr1more]

GoliathVT over at doom3world did something like this by fixing a light volume map-wide then scripting the light center to move ( rather than the light origin) along with using a table to alter the light color. Too bad the link to his demo is dead.

[ungoliant]

The game should do the hand holding.

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[161803398874989]

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"Hand holding" in this context does not refer to using aggressive linearity to prevent the player from experimenting. It refers to actually telling and teaching the player things in an easy to understand manner. Right now, the training mission is just a gigantic information drop, which is not very conducive to memorizing stuff.

Not that I don't like the current training mission, but you can't expect players to remember everything they saw in there, and they're going to need a little more teaching.

[Sotha]

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A good rule of a thumb when reading a post is to immediately stop reading and close the tab if you detect your sanity levels dropping at an alarming rate. That's what I do nowadays.

 

"Hand holding" in this context does not refer to using aggressive linearity to prevent the player from experimenting. It refers to actually telling and teaching the player things in an easy to understand manner. Right now, the training mission is just a gigantic information drop, which is not very conducive to memorizing stuff.

Not that I don't like the current training mission, but you can't expect players to remember everything they saw in there, and they're going to need a little more teaching.

 

"Hand holding" is a bit provocative around here, because TDM was designed to break free from the modern hand-holding in gaming, which is culminated by "Press X to win!" -type of design. Of course you will never learn everything in a tutorial. Go play, experiment and learn. If you wonder what button does what, open the options and examine the key bindings.

 

I mean, what has happened to good old curiosity? You test stuff to find stuff out. That's what children do when they play, and they know it out-of-the-box. Can't people generate new knowledge by themselves, by experimenting, or can you only do the stuff you have been instructed to do? When you look at the modern game hand holding, the latter seems to be the main thing nowadays.

 

That said, I don't oppose the idea of a new player picking up DR and making their very own ultra-newbie training mission that goes through abso-lutely-everything and tells exactly what button to press and when. Any volunteers? *voice echoes around empty halls.*

[Springheel]

Anyway, the most serious problem IMO, is quicksave being broken out of the box.

 

How is quicksave broken?

 

Not that I don't like the current training mission, but you can't expect players to remember everything they saw in there, and they're going to need a little more teaching.

 

That's why it's modular, so you can easily go back and play sections again.

 

I'm not sure how a training mission with a story (as in TDS) would be any more effective.

[Serpentine]

I'm not sure how a training mission with a story (as in TDS) would be any more effective.

Considering the number of people who have complimented us for *not* going the traditionally useless route of a tutorial route, and rather going with a *training* map. I think we can be extremely happy with not trying to make it a tutorial.

 

(There are a few bugs with info popups and the like, clearer writing which need to be fixed)

 

If people want a tutorial, I think it would be a great showing for the new players and editors, to work towards something like that. It's something that suits multiple authors and teamwork (you can just construct mini-maps and merge it all later on). I'd be very happy with that, but I think for the official intro, the training mission is a really nice bit of work

[Araneidae]

How is quicksave broken?

 

Pretty sure he's talking about the "Darkmod directory must be called darkmod" issue, which I'm sure I already saw someone say is fixed for the next release.

[simplen00b]

don't think you can cast light with the moon as its a projected image from a skybox in a closed off area away from the main map. and there isn't a physical representative object in the main map for the moon as far as I know.

Did someone make a demo showing an effect of clouds passing over the moon which affected the ambient moonlight levels? Or am I confusing this with Thief FMs?

[New Horizon]

Did someone make a demo showing an effect of clouds passing over the moon which affected the ambient moonlight levels? Or am I confusing this with Thief FMs?

 

Yep, there was one made a few years ago. I can't remember who did it though but it exists.

[Serpentine]

Lights in the skybox work just fine. Passing that light into the map however, does not.

 

i.e you will get the cloud illumination, however the skybox can never act as a light to cast shadows and illuminate a gameplay area.

[161803398874989]

"Hand holding" is a bit provocative around here, because TDM was designed to break free from the modern hand-holding in gaming, which is culminated by "Press X to win!" -type of design. Of course you will never learn everything in a tutorial. Go play, experiment and learn. If you wonder what button does what, open the options and examine the key bindings.

 

I mean, what has happened to good old curiosity? You test stuff to find stuff out. That's what children do when they play, and they know it out-of-the-box. Can't people generate new knowledge by themselves, by experimenting, or can you only do the stuff you have been instructed to do? When you look at the modern game hand holding, the latter seems to be the main thing nowadays.

This is not my point. Besides, each of the sections in the training mission already pretty much holds your hand (especially the stealth section: "shoot this arrow over there, then sheathe your weapons and quickly make your way over to the door"). What I'm trying to say is that the bolus of information isn't very conducive to learning stuff. I think people learn better if you teach them a couple things, then allow them to play with those skills and internalize them before moving on to teaching them new skills. That is my gripe with the training mission.

The aggressive linearity comment was a response to the violent response the word "hand-holding" seemed to invoke. The rest of the comment is just about what I think could be better about the training mission, which is precisely some non-hand-holdy sections where you get to play around with your new skills and internalize them. Basically, you do 3-4 handholdy bits where you quickly teach them a new skill, then set up a room with some AI as a puzzle to solve.

 

For instance, you could introduce lighting mechanics and hiding behind cover (the beginning of the builder warehouse), and then make a larger room with more AI in it. Then you introduce arrows and flashbombs, and you give them another larger room with some lighting that can be turned off or shot out with a water arrow. I know there are some really cool bonus areas in the training mission that do this, but I think they should be more or less mandatory.

 

I'm not sure how a training mission with a story (as in TDS) would be any more effective.

I never said it needs a story, and I don't think it does. I think it needs to put you in real mission situations after learning new skills.

[Springheel]

Did someone make a demo showing an effect of clouds passing over the moon which affected the ambient moonlight levels? Or am I confusing this with Thief FMs?

 

Right here. Maybe have been Flanders, but I can't remember.

 

[Jinix]

....... Some might say that I'm contaminated by a "console" mentality...

I agree you are contaminated by a "console" mentality... , Altho' I would refer to it as 'groomed' by console playing.

I hope TDM never regresses to 'noobie handholding' in game as it would completely ruin it for non- console players who play in a completely different world.

New players can watch walk thrus on utoob or/and ask for hints on the forum to learn how to play but please, not have the devs force it on everyone.

I suggest you wait for the new Thief game coming next year as it looksas if it is specifically made for consoles having all the bells and whistles that console players have come to expect.

[Thedarkbunny]

I didn't know that "hand holding" had that connotation around here. I think that 161803398874989 understands me. What I thinks needs to be done is to improve the training mission a little bit. I'm not talking about radical changes. I think there's a big difference between hand holding during a tutorial to explain how to play the game and hand holding during the game to explain how to win the game. For example, there's no shame in writing a good tutorial to explain the rules of chess. It's a different thing to have the computer explaining what move to make when playing chess. If players don't understand how to play the game, then they will simply never play the game. If they are confused by the tutorial, they will think "this sucks, I'm doing something else".

 

The changes I'm suggesting aren't really big. For example, I think the structure of the hub should be changed to suggest a certain order for the tutorials. I tried the archery one and they told me to use the spyglass. But I didn't have any spyglass. How am I supposed to know what a spyglass is, how to use it and whether the fact that I can't use it is a bug in the game or not? This is an example of a flaw in the tutorial.

 

IMO, this has nothing to do with "creativity" or "console mentality". Every game/tool/program needs good learning tools for new users. Long time users already know how to play the game so they don't even notice these flaws.

[ungoliant]

I'm not talking about radical changes. I think there's a big difference between hand holding during a tutorial to explain how to play the game and hand holding during the game to explain how to win the game.

 

The changes I'm suggesting aren't really big. For example, I think the structure of the hub should be changed to suggest a certain order for the tutorials. I tried the archery one and they told me to use the spyglass. But I didn't have any spyglass. How am I supposed to know what a spyglass is, how to use it and whether the fact that I can't use it is a bug in the game or not? This is an example of a flaw in the tutorial.

Freeform exploration is the name of this game. Even if the changes you suggest are not radical, they conform to a trend towards linearity and "handholding" to a degree. If your ideas are implemented sooner or later other people straight up say "just put them all in the 'right' order and eliminate the guesswork so I don't need to 'waste my time' ".

 

A line in the sand needs to be drawn somewhere, and the training mission is practically the holy embodiment of all that is good about TDM in its root foundational form. I like where the line has been drawn, and I like which side of it that TDM stands on.

 

If you take the time to explore all of the training mission, all issues like "whats that spyglass thing" are answered. We should be so thankful that we are given the opportunity to go do something else instead of having the FM say to us: "it is now time to learn about the spyglass".

 

So yeah, your ideas aren't hardcore radical supernoob linear handholdy, but the disease spreads like wildfire, and sometimes the seeds just need to be stomped out and crushed into dust. imho of course.

[rich_is_bored]

For the record, I agree with you about the spyglass reference made in the archery section. There is a preferred order you are expected to visit each section from the hub. I don't believe the entire level needs restructured but there are things that could be done to guide the player along and avoid confusion. For instance, including a spyglass in both locations and removing the remainder upon retrieval is an option.

 

I don't believe linear design and hand holding are inherently bad. I have more to say on this but my thoughts aren't organized so I'll leave it at that for now.

[161803398874989]

Freeform exploration is the name of this game. Even if the changes you suggest are not radical, they conform to a trend towards linearity and "handholding" to a degree. If your ideas are implemented sooner or later other people straight up say "just put them all in the 'right' order and eliminate the guesswork so I don't need to 'waste my time' ".

The training mission is fundamentally different from regular FMs because we're trying to teach the player rather than to just provide him a challenge. It has a higher tolerance for linearity than some other FM. Your slippery slope argument is not applicable here.

 

If you take the time to explore all of the training mission, all issues like "whats that spyglass thing" are answered. We should be so thankful that we are given the opportunity to go do something else instead of having the FM say to us: "it is now time to learn about the spyglass".

This is a false dichotomy. You can simply number the doors, mention in the book that that's the recommended order, but that you can go anywhere you like. Or if you do choose a linear path, you can always add little area skips and secrets to make a linear training mission more like a FM. Or connect the areas together with the hub being central so you can go everywhere at any time, or just follow the path. There is a wealth of options between "absolutely, totally free form" and "absolutely, totally linear".

 

A line in the sand needs to be drawn somewhere, and the training mission is practically the holy embodiment of all that is good about TDM in its root foundational form.

Ehh, no. The Builder Warehouse is super linear. It's good to teach people, but I wouldn't like it in an FM because I want options.

 

You are TEACHING PEOPLE STUFF. First you need to SHOW/EXPLAIN them how you do it, then you let them PLAY with it and give them relevant FEEDBACK until they INTERNALIZE it. Throwing them in the deep may work to teach them a couple things, but it's way less effective.

[Serpentine]

Just a note, there's : Training Mission 2.0 Feedback

Please keep the suggestions to something near point form, and rather specific. Read the known issues/things I want to address first (a number of which are mentioned in this thread).

 

You are TEACHING PEOPLE STUFF. First you need to SHOW/EXPLAIN them how you do it, then you let them PLAY with it and give them relevant FEEDBACK until they INTERNALIZE it. Throwing them in the deep may work to teach them a couple things, but it's way less effective.

I'm not going to bother to link studies, but according to the pubby-style writing in my New Scientist sub, quite a few recent studies have shown that modern educational systems are failing people to grasp concepts and skills by trying to make everything into a linear progression of lessons/tutorials, and that throwing people into the deep end (with a limited depth, and some sort of vague goal), is one of the fastest ways to teach basic practical competencies and understanding.

 

Once again, if a tutorial style mission was made by people who are interested, I don't see a reason to debate it much further. Training and Tutorial are two different things.

 

[161803398874989]

I'm not going to bother to link studies, but according to the pubby-style writing in my New Scientist sub, quite a few recent studies have shown that modern educational systems are failing people to grasp concepts and skills by trying to make everything into a linear progression of lessons/tutorials, and that throwing people into the deep end (with a limited depth, and some sort of vague goal), is one of the fastest ways to teach basic practical competencies and understanding.

Without having seen said studies, I have the following remarks:

 

1. Group size matters, especially at earlier ages where the kids aren't really inclined to want to study.

2. Location matters. The way kids are taught in my country is probably different from, say, America. This has an effect on effectiveness.

3. Platform matters. In the game feedback is rather immediate, as it is with individual teaching, whereas modern education has delayed feedback usually.

 

So I think it's a bit too drastic to draw conclusions based upon the studies.

Also, what I referred to in my post is closer to what you're reffering to "throw people in the deep end with some sort of vague goal" than babying them all the way through. You show the concept, then give them a challenge. You have to use the stuff if you're going to remember it, and that's where I think the training mission is lacking (it could do with a little clearer ordering as well, which is the linearity aspect of the discussion).

[Serpentine]

You show the concept, then give them a challenge. You have to use the stuff if you're going to remember it, and that's where I think the training mission is lacking (it could do with a little clearer ordering as well, which is the linearity aspect of the discussion).

Yup, I agree with that - nothing drastic or story related, but a few little rewards/completion checkboxes or something. Like the health vials, but for more specific sections (excluding maybe fighting, since that's already got a system).

 

Maintains it as a training mission without making it gimped in any way.

[Springheel]

You have to use the stuff if you're going to remember it, and that's where I think the training mission is lacking (it could do with a little clearer ordering as well,

 

I can see the point about suggesting an order to the areas (to avoid the spyglass problem). But I don't get the "use the stuff" argument. For pretty much everything I can think of, the player DOES have to use the skills they've just been instructed how to do.

[161803398874989]

Yeah, once.

 

I never use moss arrows, flashbombs, throwing objects, the dedicated mantle button (though you could argue that is not necessary), and I'm sure a couple more things. I never really learnt to use them, so now I just don't even when I have access. Sure, I could learn, but I don't think about that when playing a mission.

[ungoliant]

would you like a nice gate to pop up in the archery section blocking your progress until you hit the target 20 times? sounds like you want the training mission to force repetition on you. i'll pass.

[Springheel]

Yeah, once.

 

Ok, so the training mission does teach you what to do and then give you a chance to do it yourself. If you want to, you can revisit the area (or save and reload) and practice it until your heart's content. I'm still not clear about what you want to change. Do you want the player to be forced to do something X number of times?

 

You say you don't know how to use flashbombs. There's an area of the training mission that explains how to use them and then forces you to use one to get past a guard. What would you like to see instead?