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Markus

More than 60 frames per second? Uncap fps ingame...

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Hi all,

 

I've got a question about the in-game fps cap, which limits the maximum framerate to 60 fps. Is it possible to uncap the framerate limit so the game will run at higher rate than 60? My current monitor can display 144Hz and I even enabled triple buffer and vsync to smooth out gameplay but with more frames per second, the game would be more enjoyable. Any game developer who can give us feedback?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Markus

Edited by Markus

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I'm not a game dev but Disabling vertical sync in both drivers and TDM works for me on Nvidia 780 but then you get occasional tearing which triple buffering helps with. Some FMs though, like Crystal Grave 2.0 will still give you 35fps in places so your frames are going to depend also on the mission optimization.

 

I always thought triple buffering is only for when you have VSync disabled but what do I know.

 

EDIT: found this Anand article.

 

So yeah, Vertical Sync on OR VSync off with triple buffering.

 

I'm sure triple buffering does the same thing with Vsync on but with Vsync on its not doing anything.

Edited by Lux

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Hi Markus, you should see no real difference between 60 fps and, say, 100 fps. Also, uncapping the framerate seriously screws up the internal timing, so lots of things might not work correctly. However, if you really want to test your rig, you can d/l the TDM Benchmark Demo and see for yourself how well your system fares. Please note that in this benchmark, lots of stuff like AI is disabled.


My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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Yeah I thought Carmack (or somebody) said that the FPS is capped to 60 in Doom 3 for physics reasons. I.e. uncap it and you will have physics problems. All of the PCs back then were unable to run past 60 FPS and Doom 3 wasn't really a frantic blast-em-up like Quake anyway.

Edited by lost_soul

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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Uncapping fps would be a great thing to test how mapping optimization effects performance. If it's locked at 60 I'm basically shooting in the dark, as I don't have a way to tell if what I did was beneficial (and how much I benefit from it) to the map's performance. I can only see this if I'm having less than 60 fps, which is a point where I'm forced to rethink map optimization. But if I make it reach more than 60 again, I'm back to blind optimization once more. :(

 

Would really love to be able to uncap it.

 

Hi Markus, you should see no real difference between 60 fps and, say, 100 fps.

In single player games, no. In multiplayer you probably do notice some side effects. If you have less fps than the server tick rates, you'll be sending less information than the server requests (thus why you hit that perfect shot but didn't do any damage), and having a good margin of error is always good. For example, if you have consistent 120 fps, if for any reason lag drops you 20% you're still higher than the server tick rate. (for HL2dm server tick rates were usually 66 in european servers and 100 in the US servers. TF2 should be similar. I don't know how other games do it though)

 

Of course, this is irrelevant to the dark mod, but still, there's no reason why you shouldn't have the option of 120 fps if you have a 120Hz monitor. Too many games these days still make physics frame rate dependent. I'm not an experienced programmer, but I'm not convinced that that's a good practice to make anything be dependent on frame rates. I can cut some slack on modders, but not on the mainstream devs.

Edited by Skaruts

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Uncapping fps would be a great thing to test how mapping optimization effects performance. If it's locked at 60 I'm basically shooting in the dark, as I don't have a way to tell if what I did was beneficial (and how much I benefit from it) to the map's performance. I can only see this if I'm having less than 60 fps, which is a point where I'm forced to rethink map optimization. But if I make it reach more than 60 again, I'm back to blind optimization once more. :(

 

There are tools for measuring results, FPS isn't a good measure as your equipment performs differently than others, and some people's systems handle tris better than draws, or vice-versa. Also things that might not impact your FPS, will have significant impact on others (or vice-versa, it may impact your FPS, but not be worth spending time optimizing because it'll perform fine for most others).

 

r_showprimitives 1 (you want drawcalls <1500 generally)

r_showlights 1 (or r_showlights 2 to reveal volumes, you want only a couple lights per surface)

r_showlightcount 1 (red, green and blue are OK, cyan and purple will be poor performing, white significantly slow)

The number of AI in a space is significant, but also apparent.

r_showportals 1 (to test that your visportals are properly preventing other leaf areas from being rendered when they shouldn't)


"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Rather than having a coder go through the code and try to find all the places where 60fps can be adjusted upward with no impact on physics or AI behavior or anything else, you could use

 

r_showprimitives 1

 

on the command line and try to keep your draw count under 1500, worst case 2000. If you can do that, older systems should play the mission just fine.

 

TDM is a sandbox where any coder is welcome to try their hand at making things better. If you want to cut the tie between FPS and physics, you'll need a coder who's interested in doing that to step forward and take a whack at it.

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@Skaruts: If you get 60FPS, you don't need to optimize ;)

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

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Well, that depends on your system, doesn't it? If you've got a really good system you might get 60FPS where someone else with a weaker system might struggle.

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The renderer sleeps after 60 frames in a second, uncapping to 100 or 200 would just show you 40 extra frames that are all the same. A lot of work needs to be done to get that higher.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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TimeDemo can run the engine uncapped but removes AI as a factor. It's still a good tool for baseline performance profiling for raw geometry and lighting

performance. I believe TimeDemo is broken though (and I recall that Dhewm3 had fixes for that). I can try to test this later this week.


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That's one of the purposes of beta-tests ;)


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Keep in mind that the human eye "operates" at ~60Hz (as do most LCD monitors). If the game is running at ~100fps, then 40 frames are not even being displayed on the monitor, nor seen by the eye, each second.

Frame rates higher than 60Hz are good for basically 2 things:

1. lower dmap times for mission builders

2. bragging rights among peers


Linux pranqster 5.5.13-desktop-1.mga8 #1 SMP Wed Mar 25 16:52:32 UTC 2020 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GN
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This is not true. I can easily tell the difference between 60 fps and 120 fps even on a 60hz panel. I play Quake Live @ 125fps or 250fps on a 60hz tn panel and while I can't always tell the difference betwen 120/250, I can instantly tell when I'm dipping below 125fps. It's not as smooth.

There is definitely a difference especially when doing quick movements, now in TDM maybe not so much as a lot of it is slow, methodical movements without lots of quick panning. But I've played Doom 3 at 60 and 120 (BFG Version) and there is a big difference.

 

So maybe you can't tell the difference pranqster, but some of us can.

And it's just JUST about what is displayed on screen. Think about it like an analogue sine wave being converted to a digital format. The more samples (hz) the closer representation you'll have to the analogue version. Same goes with the game, the more render updates the engine does the more accurate each individual frame will be while following your movements and the movements of items in the game. Just because some of them won't be displayed on the screen, that doesn't mean you don't get the benefit of a higher fidelity.

 

For games with a selectable FPS limit, you can easily test this. Borderlands 2 is a good example, changing from 60 fps cap to 120fps cap is so much better.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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Yes, peoples' eyes vary, as well as their brains, and some can perceive greater frame rate differences. Not too many can perceive 60 fps, which is partly why film (24 fps) and TV (30 fps) were at those rates (not counting interlaced NTSC back in broadcast days, which ran at 60 fields per second). However large motion can be perceived if it lacks motion blur, so fast shutter speeds on film cameras when they would do pans across cityscapes would be noticeable. Same thing in games, the faster the motion, the greater chance of noticing because of lack of motion blur (which exists in your eyes, your brain doesn't see fast moving objects at all, it perceives them ahead of where they actually are). (Studies of tennis line judges revealed this.)

 

Of course, your room lights flickering in sync helps too. Hence fluorescent lights giving people headaches in offices with monitors out of sync.

 

All that being said, in THIS game, getting above 25 fps starts to be excessive for the slow movements we have. It's only when you quickly pan the view side to side a higher frame rate changes things, and 40-60 for most people isn't any different.


"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Usually when you get very experienced in a fast shooter you start noticing the slight differences. A friend of mine who hardly ever plays can't even notice the mouse lag that v-sync causes (which baffles me), while I notice very subtle things. I can't say I notice anything above 60 because my pc is getting old and nowadays having more than 60 is kind of becoming a luxury. :) I have more than 60 in DM in simple test maps, not really on most FMs.

Edited by Skaruts

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