Weapons Idea

[The Black Arrow]

So, I had an idea which I hope it will be implemented if possible, hopefully it's not against lore, balance and the like. I got this idea from playing all Thief games (except Thief 4) by the way.

 

Right now, TDM only has one weapon for the protagonist; The Shortsword. It's not really a bad weapon, it is very nice indeed, but of course it is not always "cool" going with it, so I had made an idea of adding two new weapons; Knife and Longsword. Of course, I also added some characteristics about it, to try to balance them out and such, and they are;

 

Knife

Slightly faster to hit than Shortsword.

Less reach than Shortsword.

Less damage than Shortsword.

More "Headshot" damage bonus.

Has a bigger "Backstab" bonus, might even instantly kill a lightly armoured enemy.

Easier and faster to ungrip.

Since it's a small weapon, you can easily NOT hit corners unlike the shortsword and longsword and hit the target if you can reach him, of course.

Either, has a very small or no weight at all.

No "Overhead Swing", instead, replaced by a "Backstab"

Has no way to parry.

 

Longsword

Slightly slower to hit than Shortsword.

More reach than Shortsword.

More damage than Shortsword.

Less "Headshot" damage bonus.

Either, has no "Backstab" bonus or a very small one. Could PROBABLY ONLY instantly kill an unarmoured enemy.

Slower and not too easy to ungrip.

Since it's a big weapon, it is easy to hit corners but has a better reach, so outside fights will be more efficient than inside fights.

Has a large weight.

Animations will be the same.

Parrying will be possible and probably even better than Shortsword's, but slightly slower.

 

For specific damage, let's say...Well, I don't know the damage mechanics for TDM, but for now I'll take it as points, yep, "Damage Points". Maybe the person who knows it a lot better than me can improve it.

 

Knife

Backstab will instantly kill unarmoured, lightly armoured and sometimes medium armoured ones. Will fatally wound heavy armoured, but they will always survive and will take 5 more "frontal" hits to kill the armoured one. For medium-armoured, 2 hits. (With this in mind, the backstab deals 8 damage points)

 

Normal, frontal (Body, no limbs or head) or "Aware" attacks will be:

Unarmoured - 3/5 hits.

Lightly-armoured - 5/8 hits

Medium-armoured - 8/10 hits

Heavy-armoured - 13/15 hits

 

"Headshot" damage would be;

Unarmoured - 1/2 hit.

Lightly-armoured - 2 hits.

Medium-armoured - 2/3 hits.

Heavy-armoured - 2/4 hits.

 

(Now, this Headshot damage might seem rather unbalanced, but if you think about the reach and parrying...You might as well be a Reckless Lucky Thief, especially if you kill a Heavy-Armoured one.)

 

Longsword

Backstab is pretty much non-existant. Could probably instakill an unarmoured target, but not always. (With that in mind, the backstab deals 2 damage)

 

Normal, frontal (Body, no limbs or head) or "Aware" attacks will be:

Unarmoured - 2

Lightly-armoured - 2/5

Medium-armoured - 5/7 hits

Heavy-armoured - 6/9 hits

 

"Headshot" damage would be;

Unarmoured - 1/2 hit.

Lightly-armoured - 2/3 hits. (3 being high chance)

Medium-armoured - 3/4 hits.

Heavy-armoured - 3/4 hits. (4 being higher chance)

 

(As you can see, this is indeed a very strong weapon, but it's not easy to use unlike the Shortsword, or at least hopefully not.)

 

I bet I actually made all these weapons badly balanced, but well, if you got suggestions for this suggestion, you sure as hell can put it here

[Springheel]

The chances of new weapons being added to the core mod at this point are slim--they'd have to add something significant to the core gameplay. Individual mappers could try this if they wanted, though.

[The Black Arrow]

The chances of new weapons being added to the core mod at this point are slim--they'd have to add something significant to the core gameplay. Individual mappers could try this if they wanted, though.

 

Isn't the idea I put rather "core gameplay" significant though? If we have these two, let's say, "replacer" weapons, then all mappers could use them since it is in the main core files, no need to download external files or maps or so.

 

Still, I don't mind if it's not in the main core files, I just hope it does get implemented, at least in an external file or so.

 

Other than that, an example of a map would be that one about "Not an Ordinary Guest". The Assassin could have a knife.

[7upMan]

I'm sorry, but why do we need a knife/dagger/sword anyway? I mean, Thief/TDM is about moving unseen and unheard, and if you actually need to kill someone (there is a select very few FMs that require you doing this, Sons of Baltona being one of them), then you always have your broadhead arrow.

[XendroX]

I agree with 7upMan, thief series is not about sword fighting at all...

[Deadlove]

If any new weapons are made I'd like to see things like in T2X with a Ice Arrow that freezes enemies, things along that line modifying existing weapons to have more uses to expand the toolset.

[SeriousToni]

You could try to model a new weapon or even modify an existing one if you want to, it is not that hard!

[7upMan]

Well, if anything, I'd vote for a gas mine. I loved them back in the day, and I sure would like to see them in TDM.

[Springheel]

Isn't the idea I put rather "core gameplay" significant though?

 

Not really, no. All you're doing is providing slight tweaks to combat mechanics. It's not giving the player an option of doing something that couldn't already be achieved by his existing weapon.

 

There's no end of possible additional weapons that could be provided to the player: garrottes, poison darts, crossbows, grenades, daggers and chloroform have all been suggested more than once. But they all essentially duplicate tools the player already has. Unlike RPGs, TDM is not primarily a game about equipment management, so choosing between the benefits of a gas arrow vs poison darts isn't what we want to focus on.

 

Well, if anything, I'd vote for a gas mine. I loved them back in the day, and I sure would like to see them in TDM.

 

We have a gas mine model but I'm not sure if the entity itself is working. The problem I forsee is that the gas needs to hit the AI's head and by the time it got that high the AI would be past the mine.

[Obsttorte]

Sotha got the gas mine working IIRC. However, if anyone needs one I can do that.

 

Creating new arrow types is not a big deal. I've already done that, but never found the time to write a wiki article about it.

 

Replacing melee weapons is more difficult, as you have to replace the model used for it and maybe the animations.

 

Anyways, I agree with 7upman that melee fighting isn't really a part of the core gameplay of TDM. And if any mapper wants the sword to behave differently, e.g. modify its attack speed or damage, this can be done easely.

 

Replacing things means to replace some files, which than have to be shipped with the FMS that are using it. There is no need to add anything to the main mod that is rarely used. And if you want to make new weapon models or animations than you are welcome. But I think it is a waste of time if no mapper is really requesting it. And you did not mention whether or not you have the capabilities to do so.

[AluminumHaste]

We have a gas mine model but I'm not sure if the entity itself is working. The problem I forsee is that the gas needs to hit the AI's head and by the time it got that high the AI would be past the mine.

 

Yes I always thought that the way gas arrows work was not well implemented. What should happen is that the gas is highly compressed so when the arrow head breaks, the gas spreads out quickly, like less than 0.5 seconds, then hangs around for 3-5 seconds before dissipating.

[Springheel]

I actually like the way the arrows work. It just doesn't suit mines well.

[demagogue]

I think a mapper could set up a knife/dagger and a broadsword model for the current sword.

And there may be a way to speed up and slow down the animations.

Damage is a change in the poke stim value IIRC.

It would at least add some aesthetic variety.

If you're really interested in this Black Arrow, I'd encourage you to look into it and make a demo of your idea for FM mappers to use if they want, or make your own FM with them.

[The Black Arrow]

I'm sorry, but why do we need a knife/dagger/sword anyway? I mean, Thief/TDM is about moving unseen and unheard, and if you actually need to kill someone (there is a select very few FMs that require you doing this, Sons of Baltona being one of them), then you always have your broadhead arrow.

 

I know a lot of maps that have some very damn annoying enemies, you'd just rather kill them since you can't knock them out (Yep, undead), so a longsword would be nice, or at least I think so.

 

For the knife, well, as deamgogue said, aesthetic variety. Besides, as I said before too, the knife seems to be very matchy for the "Not an Ordinary Guest"'s Assassin difficulty.

 

But that's only for one map...For now. I can't make a counter-argument about this in general.

 

Not really, no. All you're doing is providing slight tweaks to combat mechanics. It's not giving the player an option of doing something that couldn't already be achieved by his existing weapon.

 

There's no end of possible additional weapons that could be provided to the player: garrottes, poison darts, crossbows, grenades, daggers and chloroform have all been suggested more than once. But they all essentially duplicate tools the player already has. Unlike RPGs, TDM is not primarily a game about equipment management, so choosing between the benefits of a gas arrow vs poison darts isn't what we want to focus on.

 

You are right. This weapons idea is not really that good for the core game, might as well just be a total waste, but it is for an external file I suppose, that is, a modders'/mappers' resource.

 

If you're really interested in this Black Arrow, I'd encourage you to look into it and make a demo of your idea for FM mappers to use if they want, or make your own FM with them.

 

That's true. I'll need to try making at least two maps that use those two weapons on each.

 

I'll have to find some time to do it.

 

And you did not mention whether or not you have the capabilities to do so.

 

I can only do textures, no modeling, animating or scripting yet.

 

Though, I'm sure I can learn scripting easily enough.

 

Didn't do much modeling nor animating, I only got Blender and use it for OMD2's model's for viewing.

[Deadlove]

A gas mine would be a nice implementation, as it can work as a trap, and not being used at the current moment as an arrow is used.