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wesp5

Should small static oil lamps be extinguishable up close?

Oil lamps  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. Should small static oil lamps be exstinguishable up close?

    • Yes
    • No
    • Yes or no, depending on a new gameplay setting.
    • Yes or no, depending on how mappers define them.


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Keeping mappers happy is high priority.

(though rejecting this idea has less to do with keeping mappers happy, and everything to do with not making the rules less consistent to support a specific vision of 'what makes sense' that is, as far as I can tell, completely arbitrary.)

As for the first point, the only mission where this could be critical would be one without any water arrows or a section with more oil lamps somewhere than available water arrows as if the mapper could predict that. I never played any mission like this!

 

As for the second point, realism is not arbitrary. And arguing that other lights could realistically be extinguished as well doesn't help, but rather in my opinion shows that a lot of developers here are quite closed to any introduction of new features to TDM...

 

Sorry, if this sounds a little bit harsh, I'll try to explain. Maybe it is indeed your aim to optimize TDM, fix all the bugs and keep it like this forever. But just search the changelog since 2.0 and all feature proposals are either coding issues or UI details, which actually were bugtracked by me ;). Among all the cool gameplay things suggested in the improvement thread over the years nothing ever was implemented! And I remember some nice ideas regarding holy water and other new items. How about creating like a basic version with the current stuff and a plus version or something adding newer gameplay elements? I had to do the same with my Bloodlines patch because of a similar kind of gameplay purists :).

Edited by wesp5

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I'm really certain that no developer would stray so far away from what is tradition here ;)!

you are only too stubborn to agree ;)

in my opinion shows that a lot of developers here are quite closed to any introduction of new features to TDM...

I'm as stubborn as some of the developers are and this isn't the first time either :).

quite often suggestions are blocked "because we mustn't change existing missions."

I haven't noticed anything much in regard of new or modified features at all. So have new features been added since 2.0?

a lot of developers here are quite closed to any introduction of new features to TDM

dude

Edited by Airship Ballet

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But just search the changelog since 2.0 and all feature proposals are either coding issues or UI details, which actually were bugtracked by me

 

1. Delusional

2. Trolling

3. Poor communicator

 

Not sure which one it is.

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I wanna make friends, people you can talk passionately with, rather than dry remarks and simple statement of opinions. but maybe im just a dork like that

This is not a chatroom. If we always astray into personal stories and relations to make friends or foes, in game / work related threads would become full of trash, threads would become bloated and no visitor will find the answer he or she was looking for...

 

 

Sorry, if this sounds a little bit harsh, I'll try to explain. Maybe it is indeed your aim to optimize TDM, fix all the bugs and keep it like this forever. But just search the changelog since 2.0 and all feature proposals are either coding issues or UI details, which actually were bugtracked by me ;). Among all the cool gameplay things suggested in the improvement thread over the years nothing ever was implemented! And I remember some nice ideas regarding holy water and other new items. How about creating like a basic version with the current stuff and a plus version or something adding newer gameplay elements? I had to do the same with my Bloodlines patch because of a similar kind of gameplay purists :).

I have followed TDM for many years now and believe me, the feature list was growing with each update! I still remember how excited I got when I was awaiting the new AI card playing feature! :)

It's just that currently the main developement team has grown a little too small to implement each and every proposal from the players. Not that a constant flow of feedback is a bad thing, but (despite if your ideas are good or bad imho) you should recocknize that it is not an easy task to implement new things without corrupting the 'working system' and IF you really would LOVE to see that feature you like so much, you can always try to implement it in your own playtest with hints and tips from the dev team. But please don't get angry if people won't welcome this feature with open arms and implement it by themselves after years of work on the core mod. ;)


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Actually Toni this is a chat room, this is where people come to mingle and share ideas with other cool people. Bug tracking, mission or help threads, thats where you wanna keep off topic comments to a minimun. Dont try to take the fun away! :)

Edited by RPGista
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This is not a chatroom. If we always astray into personal stories and relations to make friends or foes, in game / work related threads would become full of trash, threads would become bloated and no visitor will find the answer he or she was looking for...

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...What's so bad about adding an option for any users who want this feature? I can't really believe the argument that old missions are sooo important, this is used all the time when people ask for actual new game features, but it strangely was never an issue when the whole sound or AI systems were changed!

"Asimov wrote stories with robots that behaved according to the three laws of robotics, but all these other authors wrote stories that didn't, this is not consistent. So I want to change all these other stories so their robots behave like Asimovs and then I want the publishers to release these modified stories and get rid of the original creations"

 

No, you don't like non Asimovean robots don't read the stories but don't change someone elses work to suit yourself, call it an improvement and expect everyone else to go along with it.

 

I haven't written any TDM missions but I did write one for T2, now people can download that and do whatever they like with it, no problem, but if they change it and replace my version on the download sites with theirs then I'd be a teeny bit miffed.

 

...And arguing that other lights could realistically be extinguished as well doesn't help, but rather in my opinion shows that a lot of developers here are quite closed to any introduction of new features to TDM...

New features are not a problem, its retrofitting these new features to existing maps that is. As for replacing AI & sound systems I believe there was quite a lot of testing done to ensure the effect on the gameplay in existing maps would be minimal. Whereas the ability to plunge a section into darkness when the author intended that you shouldn't be able to is a fairly major change to gameplay.

 

In the mission I made for T2 I did a lot of work on placing lights and deciding whether they could be extinguished or not, on the expert difficulty I even had the AI turn lights back on if they'd been turned off, lighting is important and I chose my lighting arrangement carefully, change the lights and the gameplay changes completely as was evidenced by the reaction from my beta testers when they found the AI could turn lights back on.

 

Now if someone retrofits a way into every mission that allows the player to turn every light off then all the work I did placing those lights is a complete and utter waste of my time, and the game becomes trivial.

 

The author put a particular type of light at a particular place for a particular reason, if you don't like that choice go play another mission or create your own that does it your way.

  • Like 2

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It's just that currently the main developement team has grown a little too small to implement each and every proposal from the players.

This is something I could understand. So it's less about not wanting to include something, but fearing that you won't be able to do so in the long run anyway? That would be a shame! I had the impression TDM development is still very active, compared to other free games. Like I followed The Babylon Project for some time and development silently died with the last patch versions not even released to the greater public :(. So as I said, I come back to TDM every now and then and always have the feeling nothing has changed except bug fixes. And regarding the changelog and possible trolling, I just searched for "feature proposal" and found very little. Maybe a lot is hidden under other key words?

Edited by wesp5

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New features are not a problem, its retrofitting these new features to existing maps that is. As for replacing AI & sound systems I believe there was quite a lot of testing done to ensure the effect on the gameplay in existing maps would be minimal. Whereas the ability to plunge a section into darkness when the author intended that you shouldn't be able to is a fairly major change to gameplay.

Yeah, but the change discussed here isn't that critical compared to e.g. breaking electrical lights. Oil lamps can already be extinguished by water arrows, the suggested feature would only add another gameplay element when you want to save arrows or the mission has none in it. The same goes for other suggestions that were ignored, like all the holy water variations. Old missions wouldn't break, at the max they would become a bit easier, which could be the choice of the player like with the added AI difficulty settings.

Edited by wesp5

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dude

Maybe I'm overlooking something, so please tell me, since 2.0 (which was the first version I played), what new gameplay elements have been introduced? What new weapons, new arrows, new powerups, new items, new NPCs, new machines, new models have been added? Like actual new features?

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What's so bad about adding an option for any users who want this feature?

 

 

That's not how game development should work for starters. Just because a few people may want something does not mean it should be added as an option in the menu. Once you start doing that for one thing, where do you stop? Should the devs just give up and add an option every other time someone has an idea that they feel is right and true? Do the people who spent years internally debating, designing, loving, laboring, sweating, and putting all the checks and balances in place not have the right to decide what is or isn't added to their work?

 

 

I can't really believe the argument that old missions are sooo important, this is used all the time when people ask for actual new game features, but it strangely was never an issue when the whole sound or AI systems were changed!

 

 

The sound and AI systems were not feature complete. Some of those changes were due to bugs and the team discovering that things were not functioning as we had intended.

Your proposal is neither a bug, nor a planned feature. Your suggestion has been heard, but the team disagrees...and that's fine. Nobody is the bad guy. We've implemented fixes and suggestions from players before, AI sight and hearing settings would be one of those...as well as the bow sight for aiming, and the fixes / improvements to the blackjacking.

 

Don't take it so personally that we don't agree with your idea, and instead take the initiative to add it locally to your own install and enjoy it.

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This is something I could understand. So it's less about not wanting to include something, but fearing that you won't be able to do so in the long run anyway? That would be a shame! I had the impression TDM development is still very active, compared to other free games. Like I followed The Babylon Project for some time and development silently died with the last patch versions not even released to the greater public :(. So as I said, I come back to TDM every now and then and always have the feeling nothing has changed except bug fixes. And regarding the changelog and possible trolling, I just searched for "feature proposal" and found very little. Maybe a lot is hidden under other key words?

 

I'm 100% sure that feature proposals are welcome, however a proposal doesn't mean to be included to a 100% in the game ;) For each new feature you need a lot of testing with the current game and the dev team does a great job by testing even the very old missions before each and every new TDM release. To keep the already created missions running is more important than to implement a new, nice feature, which would cause the mappers to rework their old missions (which won't happen). The second point of implementing new features is the bug fixing. It is totally normal for a game dev team to do more bugfixing than actually designing / creating new things. You just can't put up a ton new, cool stuff in a new release, without bugfixing / correcting what's already in the mod. Btw most bugs will only get noticed after a public release, since we only have a small amount of beta testers.

 

With my small knowledge of the editor, Dark Radiant, I believe it should let you do your gas flames extinghuish feature without too much pain / scripting. You should be able to setup a small test mission and make the lights frobable / extinguishable just like a torch. If it works for you, why not put it up in a nice demo mission as an official FM release? I'm sure this will give your feature proposal a higher rank, if the dev team sees and feels (by playing it) by themselves, how cool this new feature really is. ;)

 

EDIT: Sorry, this is a hot topic - got ninjaed twice :ph34r:

Edited by SeriousToni

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Maybe I'm overlooking something, so please tell me, since 2.0 (which was the first version I played), what new gameplay elements have been introduced? What new weapons, new arrows, new powerups, new items, new NPCs, new machines, new models have been added? Like actual new features?

 

I think you're focusing too much on 'adding' things. That's not really the state TDM is in at the moment. I believe TDM is pretty much feature complete. That being said...we've added lots of things since 2.0. Read the web page.

 

http://www.thedarkmod.com/news/

 

There have been new character sets. Hell, 2.03 introduced over 100 new textures and models. There has pretty much been something new in every release...but there doesn't always have to be something new. Fixing long standing issues and refining the existing structure is equally if not more important than consistently piling on eye candy and options.

 

 

AI changes: AI have a few new animations, including a new pickpocket reaction. Many AI, including the citywatch and builder models, should look more detailed, as most AI are now using LOD (Level of Detail) stages, allowing greater detail up close and less detail (and less of a performance hit) when further away. In terms of behaviour, AI will now coordinate their searches more intelligently when in groups, sending some AI to guard doors and choke-points rather than stepping all over each other. AI will now react when getting hit by an opening door. An issue that allowed AI to see behind them if their head was turned a certain way has been fixed.

Graphics: Particle effects have been greatly improved, so that they no longer create hard lines when intersecting geometry. Water no longer distorts things that are in front of it, and the skybox will no longer flash grey when the player is mantling. The spyglass will now appear round regardless of the screen dimensions used. A number of entities are now using LOD (Level of Detail) stages. You may wish to adjust this option in the Graphics Menu if you see noticeable ‘popping’ of models.

Assets: More than a hundred new high-quality textures and models have been added to the game, and should start appearing in new maps. A number of existing models have been improved by adding more polys and better textures. A new female townsfolk model and vocal set has also been added to the game and should start appearing in new maps soon.

A video preview of some of the new features can be watched here.

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I think you're focusing too much on 'adding' things. That's not really the state TDM is in at the moment. I believe TDM is pretty much feature complete. That being said...we've added lots of things since 2.0. Read the web page.

After reading this summary it seems that the biggest change since 2.0 is the pickpocketing reaction which is indeed great! And yes, I assumed TDM is rather complete right now so adding new features could be considered. That is if people actually want them which I get the impression is not really the case. With my own work I love restoring stuff, so that's why I'm a little bit disappointed that so many ideas are ignored here. But maybe your goals are different and you want to make TDM perfect like it is with no new major features or changes planned for the future at all.

Edited by wesp5

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Just because a few people may want something does not mean it should be added as an option in the menu. Once you start doing that for one thing, where do you stop?

I already know this from my own patching work, pleasing everyone is not possible ;). Which is why I made this poll in the first place and right now more than half of the voters would like to have a feature like this implemented in some kind of way! It's not about my own setup, I already added this feature because it was so easy to do.

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... and you want to make TDM perfect like it is with no new major features or changes planned for the future at all.

 

TDM will never be 'perfect', that's just not possible anywhere ..let alone game development. We want it to be the best it can be. In terms of adding 'new' features or changes, nothing is set in stone. If something makes sense, then yeah...maybe we'll add it, but we here at TDM have never been fond of the good old 'feature bloat'.

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I remember when TDM turned what, 1.8, 2.0? A bug fix from Grayman, who was my hero (helped me out many times, great missions and work) broke my mission, a part of it that took me aaaages to get right (in game "scripted" scenes using the conversation system). So then he became my biggest nightmare, I had to come back and redo that and had no idea how! Huge bummer. The moment I pointed it out to him, he worked it out for a few hours and came back with the solution, and saved my day. So he became a hundred porcent hero again, in my book. Thats the kind of support you get as a mission author in here (not mentioning all the hand holding throughout the whole process of making them).

 

There has been amazing changes to TDM since I got to know it in version 1.6. Read the changelogs in the wiki page http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Category:What%27s_New. If that doesnt impress you, Im not sure what will. These guys are not fooling around.

Edited by RPGista

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When it comes to feature ideas, off the top of my head...

 

  • werebeast and female pagan models remain in some state of development
  • there's been recent discussion of potential new vocal sets
  • there's a semi-done rideable horse shipped with the mod (its entityDef is commented out), and a smidgeon of scripting related to work on horse-drawn vehicles
  • unfinished, though usable, work on ghosts
  • fire elementals have been worked on in the past
  • the idea of alarm buttons alerted AI could press comes up from time to time--after all, Thief did that

 

...and to be perfectly candid I'm more excited about all of those than about small static oil lamps. :P


Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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...and to be perfectly candid I'm more excited about all of those than about small static oil lamps. :P

Indeed, they sound cool :)! Still the oil lamp change has aready been posted in this thread, it would only need a UI setting added for it to work for everyone. As for the changelog links mentioned here, except for some single additions, all major development seems to be done by only three guys! Looking at the huge bugtracker list that means a lot of work, my respect to them! Maybe I just need to be more patient ;)...

Edited by wesp5

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Two words to keep in mind when requesting TDM features/changes:

 

TRIAGE

 

BURNOUT

 

Much like going to the hospital and having to wait hours before a doctor will see you when you're really hurting but everyone in front of you is hurting even more, features/changes in TDM are subject to TRIAGE. If it takes a long time to get a response, or the response is not what you expected, it's not personal, or a measure of the worthiness of your idea. There's no upside to dragging a conversation on and on and on and making generalizations about TDM's goals; think of all the work we're not getting done while we're spending time reading and replying to things like "How many features have been added since ...". This thread alone has run 4 pages now with no end in sight.

 

In my case, I switch gears every once in a while. BURNOUT coding 2.03 switched me back to map making (William Steele series), and I plan to do virtually no coding work for 2.04, and this will be my smallest code contribution since 1.04. So if you catch me in a mapping stage, and I don't leap onto the bandwagon of your latest and greatest suggestion, this is why.

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Once more, no problem with an extra lamp model being added which can be frobbed to turn it off or even scripts & settings in new missions applied to existing oil lamp models to let you turn them off, or even some other solution in new missions that lets you change the lighting in some fashion

 

But leave the lights in existing missions alone, if you haven't got enough water arrows to deal with the lights then tough luck it's like that for a reason, the author has set you a problem and it's up to you to solve it within the game mechanic as it stands, "do I burn a limited resource or do I find some other solution" that's the problem, not "do I appeal to the developers and get the game mechanic changed so the problem goes away". There is no point in making missions with puzzles, problems & limited resources if by changing a setting on the engine all these problems disappear and crucially it's not regarded as some form of cheat like using notarget or noclip is.

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Two words to keep in mind when requesting TDM features/changes:

 

TRIAGE

 

BURNOUT

I can understand both (although I never heard TRIAGE before), still the oil lamp problem doesn't really touch either, as it has already been solved in the other thread and it would take about 10 minutes to include it into the next version of TDM in a non-option form. Which basically is why I'm so stubborn: the new feature is already there, but we are discussing instead of adding it in! But I better shut up now and come back some time later with the same suggestion ;).

Edited by wesp5

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This dicussion reminds me a lot of the Vampire Bloodlines fan patches.

In essence, as far as I saw, there were two main lines that tried to improve the main game:

One tried to stay as close to the developers Version as possible, while fixing bugs and keeping it playable.

The other additionally (to fixing bugs) dug through the files, included found conversation lines that were for some reason not used, included found items in the data, and as it grew rewards were shifted around, items changed location, some rewards were given on different points in the story line, items were reskinned, rewarded sooner, there were options to get a reward AND safe someone (where you had to choose before, although you didn't know), and such...

 

Between those two lines, at least it seemed that way, there was a big trench. Both had its merits, although to different kinds of players.

And I think the goal of both was to keep the original vision of the developers. One by keeping as close as possible to the delivered version, the other by including everything that the developers for some reason "missed" to include (the game was rushed to release), or which might enhance the feeling closer to the assumed vision of the developers.

 

Those are very different approaches, one reluctant to change, and one leaping to change.

Those same approaches clash again here, at least it looks to me like it.

Communication between those approaches is, to say the least, difficult.

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Communication between those approaches is, to say the least, difficult.

Except it's not an ideological thing in that sense. It's a "no you can't overwrite our work but by all means make your own in addition" against a "no your work has to be undone I want it my way."

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