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The guards can cheat ( resolved)


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I do not see it so clearly that the guard sees through the column, from what I see is that Garret squatting sure is wider than this column and is seen by this by the guard, because from his perspective he can see that you are behind it.

FzJijEb.png

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Zerg Rush said:

I do not see it so clearly that the guard sees through the column, from what I see is that Garret squatting sure is wider than this column and is seen by this by the guard, because from his perspective he can see that you are behind it.

FzJijEb.png

Why is Garett squatting on his heels wider than this column and wider than the guard himself? Garett the fat man? Are we playing for the fat guy? This is very strange and funny...

In the third person, he is as thin as a guard.  But, if the player is squatting, then for some reason he is fat.

Edited by Gadavre
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4 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

You can verify further by pm_thirdperson 1 to see whether the player is visible.

Tested.

pm_thirdperson 1

In this case, the player standing in a bright place is not illuminated by light at all and, of course, is invisible to the guards

 

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6 hours ago, Gadavre said:

Why is Garett squatting on his heels wider than this column and wider than the guard himself? Garett the fat man? Are we playing for the fat guy? This is very strange and funny...

In the third person, he is as thin as a guard.  But, if the player is squatting, then for some reason he is fat.

Not fat (the photo was only to illustrate the problem, certainly something exaggerated XD), but squatting a person is wider seen from the side. It depends on the position you are in at the moment, which may be different than the one on the rep.
For the guard to see you, it is enough that only a part of you protrudes, if the column is not very wide, it is never a good safe hiding place, especially when the guard passes by and therefore sees it from different angles or even touches you.

Edited by Zerg Rush

Sys Specs Laptop Lenovo V145 15AST, AMD A9- 9425 Radeon R5 - 5 cores 3,1 GHz  RAM 8Gb, GPU 1+2 Gb -Win10 64 v1909

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Zerg Rush said:

 but squatting a person is wider seen from the side. It depends on the position you are in at the moment, which may be different than the one on the rep.
 

Why in this case, the standing guard can see part of the player behind the column, and the player in the same position can not see some part of the guard? I showed this moment in my video. A squatting person takes up a lot of space and is therefore more visible than a standing person? Do you believe that this is true?....

Perhaps there is a variable that can reduce the width to the sides of the player?

There is a variable which determines the height of the player:

seta pm_crouchheight  "38"

In real life, it is easy to hide behind a column  or a tree from a person who is standing still. But in the game at the moment, for some reason it is impossible. I hope the developers will pay attention to this. After all, they strive for realism in the game

Edited by Gadavre
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I dont think adding size in terms of "wide" adds anything good to the gameplay.
That the viewcone system apparently is able to see part the edges of the pillar and still being able to recognize it as a player.

Do we have to stand sideways now to not being seen? I dont think that is fun.

Can we have more scary Zombie Horror maps?

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Here is another video that proves that the guards have a cheating ability. They can see not only through the column, but also through the boxes! Perhaps  a small patch can to help the Players...

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Gadavre said:

Here is another video that proves that the guards have a cheating ability. They can see not only through the column, but also through the boxes! Perhaps  a small patch can to help the Players...

 

Naturally he can see you, when he passes the boxes you are in full light

3KuTXJr.png

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Zerg Rush said:

Naturally he can see you, when he passes the boxes you are in full light

3KuTXJr.png

Watch my video carefully again. I was spotted by a standing guard, not a patrolling guard. The crates and column completely blocked the player from this guard. The light doesn't matter.

 

 

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Guards can't see through objects, but it's impossible to tell what is going on here from this kind of video.  AI only need to see a single piece of the player, so if there is a gap between the pillar and the boxes, it's possible a trace went through that gap.  Does that AI have special settings on it to increase its visual acuity?  Is there another AI down the hall that is spotting the player from another angle?   There are multiple things that could be going on.

 

You could get more information using the following console commands:

 

tdm_ai_showalert 1

Shows the AI's current alert total and alert state.

tdm_ai_showfov

Shows the AI vision cone so you know where they are currently looking

 

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Afaik "the player" for the AI is not the visual mesh, is the invisible bounding box that encompasses the visual player mesh, so even if the player may be totally hidden by the pillar, his bounding box may not. 

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I don't know, it really seems like a perspective thing to me. Looking at the player next to the pillar, either standing or crouching, and it just seems that the pillar is too small to hide behind. Just my opinion.

pillar1.thumb.png.bf3060d81b71f4ece846c25ffe038ec1.png 

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Posted (edited)

Springheel

HMart

ate0ate

Zerg Rush

new video.  all AI settings by default. I waited until the guard had calmed down...I approach unnoticed  and crouch behind the column and the crates. But the guard finds me anyway.... There are no gaps between the column and the boxes.

 

Edited by Gadavre
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Put a third box on top of the others and see if it still happens.  If the player height when crouched is taller than the boxes, he could be spotting the top of your head. 

It's also possible something specific was done in that mission that is causing the problem.  It is a very old mission, one of the first few ever created for TDM.  Have you noticed this behaviour anywhere else?

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Springheel said:

Put a third box on top of the others and see if it still happens.  The guard is already somewhat alerted (probably by noise) before you step into the light.  If the player is taller than the boxes, he could be spotting the top of your head.

I don't know where to find the boxes. Can I spawn boxes via the console?

 

 


 
Edited by Gadavre
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Posted (edited)

Springheel

I understand now,  how stealth works to become completely invisible,  I need to hide behind the object, approximately 3 boxes long and 3 boxes high. Behind such a wall, the guard can't see me, although the light falls on me....

It would be great if the player could change the size of his body in the config for the ability to hide behind pillars, trees...

Thank you to everyone who helped to understand this  problem!

chalice_2021-04-17_20.03.57.jpg

chalice_2021-04-17_20.04.06.jpg

Edited by Gadavre
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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Springheel said:

 Have you noticed this behaviour anywhere else?

 

I recently play the game. I have not seen this anywhere.

Edited by Gadavre
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It definitely doesn't have to be 3 boxes wide.  2 at most, and I suspect even 1 would be enough.  The player is taller than he is wide, even when crouched.

 

 

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At two boxes high the player is far too tall. I think you may be having issues with the perspective. The players head would still be clearly visible at a two boxes high.boxes2.png.e595b2ec66e2cf2998c395d5e05aefe0.png

Furthermore, I am unsure what you are trying to achieve at this point of the mission? The key needed to progress is actually behind you on the wall and clearly reachable without any boxes or light manipulation even with the AI vision and hearing set to hardcore, simply by leaning.key2.png.5eeea5efef133a8aa8aa06111f695724.png

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Could the issue be remedied by taking into account how much of the player is blocked by an object + lightgem level + distance.  The game already takes distance + lightgem level into account when determining how quickly the guards react.  A further check could ease things a bit.  Deadly Shadows was able to handle it that way.  It checked something like 12 individual points on the player model

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This is purely personal so take it for what its worth (not much) but I have only been playing with TDM for a couple months and really like the current system. I tend to play ghost and hardcore AI hearing/vision so I enjoy a degree of difficulty. Any easier would kill much of the fun in my opinion. It makes sense that a guard is going to see you with your head sticking out. That said, there is definitely some discrepancy between first and third person views that may be contributing to issues. That picture I posted above with the players head sticking above the two high box pile in 3rd person looks like this in first person...view1.png.72c46999e677dba06d470b92ed73db88.png

The picture above in my prior post that is in 3rd person looks like at least the entire head of the player is visible, but in first person it does "look" like you are hidden. To be clear, I feel I am actively looking for an issue here when I'm not certain there is one, but this is the most I can see.

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30 minutes ago, New Horizon said:

Could the issue be remedied by taking into account how much of the player is blocked by an object + lightgem level + distance.  The game already takes distance + lightgem level into account when determining how quickly the guards react.  A further check could ease things a bit.  Deadly Shadows was able to handle it that way.  It checked something like 12 individual points on the player model

 

That's something I always wanted to see.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, ate0ate said:

Furthermore, I am unsure what you are trying to achieve at this point of the mission? The key needed to progress is actually behind you on the wall and clearly reachable without any boxes or light manipulation even with the AI vision and hearing set to hardcore, simply by leaning.

Thanks, I figured it out. I play recently and I'm interested in understanding how AI works.  I love testing and finding hidden bugs in games.. I don't want to make the game easier, just help the developers make it more realistic

 

In my opinion, the third-person model has very wide-spread arms. Therefore, it is impossible to hide behind a pillar, as the hands will be visible.

Edited by Gadavre
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  • Gadavre changed the title to The guards can cheat ( resolved)

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