Unofficial Patch

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, Dragofer said:

In any case, it's advisable to at least adapt the file structure to the new addon conventions so that players are able to install other addons alongside yours.

I have already done this in my latest update :)!

[wesp5]

16 minutes ago, snatcher said:

As a start, I would like to see the patch, or parts of it, in pk4 format. If you were to split your patch into standalone mods, which mods would you produce?

As I explained above, if I would split my patch into pieces, most of it would be similar to your mod where you can do this already ;). Also I see this as a small personal project so to me it's enough to extract everything into the TDM folder and be ready to go! I made an installer for my Bloodlines patch and I also had this be modular some time ago, but in the end it proved to be a nightmare for finding bugs because everybody could have a different combination of installed features.

Edited March 6 by wesp5

[snatcher]

Yeah, installers are a nightmare to maintain, and then the false positives...

I am not familiar with Bloodlines. It looks like and oldie worth checking. I will add it to my list. Besides, your patch comes at the top at Nexus

All mods are personal projects, mine included. The question is, what is your opinion about the incompatibilities between the Unofficial Patch and the TDM Modpack? How would you feel if you were new to The Dark Mod and you had to choose? Shouldn't we do something about it?

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

The question is, what is your opinion about the incompatibilities between the Unofficial Patch and the TDM Modpack? How would you feel if you were new to The Dark Mod and you had to choose? Shouldn't we do something about it?

Have you already converted your mod to the new conventions? Maybe both can be already merged. Otherwise I fear that it is the same with the Bloodlines UP and other mods. When they change the same files, merging is practically impossible.

[Loginnerer]

15 hours ago, snatcher said:

Open questions for all.

As a mere player, have you ever modified other games? Have you installed unofficial fixes, patches, updates, upgrades, expansions, mods? Were you happy it all was well documented? Were you happy that you could control what was being installed? Were you happy that it worked? Were you happy that you could install other stuff alongside without problems? Were you happy that you could uninstall it? Did you care about the authors or flame wars going on in obscure places of the internet?

Players download stuff, sometimes read the instructions, install it and judge it.

As a mere player, I have modified Far Cry 2 and Splinter Cell games. Of course it makes me happy to see folks documenting their methods, because I would not have known where to start without them. I don't have any coding knowledge, but simply follow instructions, and merely experiment a little.

As for most of your questions - the more flexibility the better, for sure. Who wouldn't be happy? 

Always exciting to check in on what new possibilities modders have discovered, even if these features do not interest me, so yeah I have been regularly visiting certain mod pages (including yours). Idk what anyone gets out of flame wars. There was some drama around Far Cry 2 modders some years ago that was such a bummer to see, as the plagiarizing a-hole was the same guy who also actively introduced never-before-seen possibilities.

TDM has left me content so far, so I haven't really cared about learning how to mod it, but now that 2.12 introduced a faster mantling which I do not like at all - I'd give it a go if it is not too demanding.

[uyvie]

Out of all this modpack I would like to get only dark Frob Outline

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, uyvie said:

Out of all this modpack I would like to get only dark Frob Outline

That is already in the core game, for whatever reason the team decided to not include it in the GUI as an option, which is the only thing I did about it. You can enable it in the console with r_frobOutline 1 and r_frobOutlinePreset 6 anytime...

 

Edited March 7 by wesp5

[snatcher]

20 hours ago, wesp5 said:

Have you already converted your mod to the new conventions?

Yes.

20 hours ago, wesp5 said:

Maybe both can be already merged. Otherwise I fear that it is the same with the Bloodlines UP and other mods. When they change the same files, merging is practically impossible.

It's a case by case exercise. We have the tools and we have the knowledge. We just need the will to do it.

A pk4 is just a zip with a pk4 extension. If you pack the Unofficial Patch (except the "fms" folder) players can easily install it and remove it. Give it a try, pack it and give it a name, in example:

• z_unofficial_patch_wesp5.pk4

Test it.

[wesp5]

This sounds easy, but wouldn't it be overruled by any pk4s in fan missions or e.g. your mod's pk4? In what order are these pk4s processed, alphabetical, date, ... ? As far as I know the current solution makes sure that my patch is active all the time.

Edited March 7 by wesp5

[snatcher]

See it as a first step for you to get familiar with the process. You can present the Patch as:

• fms
• z_unofficial_patch_wesp5.pk4
• tdmup-logo.jpg
• tdmup-readme.txt

Yes, incompatibilities remain but at least players can give the Patch a try without marrying it too much.

10 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

In what order are these pk4s processed, alpabetical, date?

Alphabetically. Last pk4 wins.

10 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

As far as I know the current solution makes sure that my changes are active all the time.

It's the same raw or in pk4.

Edited March 7 by snatcher

[snatcher]

4 hours ago, wesp5 said:

[...] for whatever reason the team decided to not include it in the GUI as an option [...]

It isn't as perfect as it needs to be, unfortunately

[Dragofer]

36 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

This sounds easy, but wouldn't it be overruled by any pk4s in fan missions or e.g. your mod's pk4? In what order are these pk4s processed, alphabetical, date, ... ? As far as I know the current solution makes sure that my patch is active all the time.

Assets in FMs always overwrite assets in the TDM installation, regardless of whether either of the files are within or outside a .pk4.

[wesp5]

On 3/7/2024 at 9:23 PM, Dragofer said:

Assets in FMs always overwrite assets in the TDM installation, regardless of whether either of the files are within or outside a .pk4.

In that case I could indeed use a pk4 with the name Unofficial_Patch. If the last one wins this or Wesp5 should be good :)!

P.S.: I have released a new update where all loose files are in tdmup.pk4 now. Also I included nbohr1more's new torches...

Edited March 9 by wesp5

[Dragofer]

It occurred to me that, by now, this package goes well beyond mere bugfixes by including a range of gameplay changes (i.e. adding the ability to frob-extinguish oil candles, which isn't a bug that was patched). Maybe players would have a better idea of what this package does if it had a more fitting name, similar to how Snatcher calls his work a modpack?

In other communities the term "unofficial patch" is typically associated with collections of community fixes to bugs that exist in the core game and were never addressed by the devs. Most players would therefore expect an "unofficial patch" to provide them the same experience as originally intended by the devs, but without technical problems.

[wesp5]

I had this discussion a lot with my Bloodlines Unofficial Patch and honestly, nobody really knows what an unofficial patch can or should do, because a) it's unofficial and b) many developers add or change features with their patches (just look at CP2077 2.0 or TDM itself). I kept the name because it's similar to the other patches I do and does not stray as far away from the original game as e.g. Snatcher's Mod. Also to me, being able to extinguish candle flames but not oil flames, or enemies getting magically immune just by noticing the player are bugs. If not of the pure computer gameplay kind, then certainly of the consistent world building kind ;).

Edited March 13 by wesp5

[wesp5]

I made a small update today removing two modpack skills that were indeed not regular features of the original game, namely Whistle and Peek Door. The real reason though was that I never really use any of them! If I want to alert a guard, I can always hit something with my blackjack and I almost forgot about the peering through a keyhole feature before I noticed that it works with handles without a keyhole e.g. in the current mission I beta test. I kept the numbers scroll, because this basically gives you access to something the game already has only any time, and the Blow skill, as a last resort if mission creator use uncommon flames, again like in the current beta. Also this way there is a bigger distinction between Snatcher's modpack with all the cool new stuff and my patch!

[snatcher]

Having completed all missions (except the very recent ones) I find TDM not challenging at this stage. If I want get any enjoyment on a second play-through of a mission I set my own rules and I roll-play it. Here is where optional skills / add-ons / challenges / fundamental changes come into play.

I wish missions wouldn't resort so often to no BJ or no kills and allow me chose who I want to be in any difficulty. I wish TDM had real challenges built-in. @STiFU is up to something, and I am looking forward to his updates on the progress.

 

23 hours ago, wesp5 said:

The real reason though was that I never really use any of them!

What I really want to say is that mods - as long as they serve a purpose and work - will find their audience, regardless of whether you use them or not.

Edited April 3 by snatcher

[wesp5]

3 minutes ago, snatcher said:

What I really want to say is that mods - as long as they serve a purpose and work - will find their audience, regardless of whether you use them or not.

I completely agree, what I wanted to say was that there is no need for a huge overlap between our works! BTW, did you ever test what happens if both are installed at the same time?

[snatcher]

10 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

BTW, did you ever test what happens if both are installed at the same time?

Sure, short circuit, of course

[TheUnbeholden]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:05 AM, wesp5 said:

I had this discussion a lot with my Bloodlines Unofficial Patch and honestly, nobody really knows what an unofficial patch can or should do, because a) it's unofficial and b) many developers add or change features with their patches (just look at CP2077 2.0 or TDM itself). I kept the name because it's similar to the other patches I do and does not stray as far away from the original game as e.g. Snatcher's Mod. Also to me, being able to extinguish candle flames but not oil flames, or enemies getting magically immune just by noticing the player are bugs. If not of the pure computer gameplay kind, then certainly of the consistent world building kind ;).

I suppose your right. The Dark Mod was originally made to be a challenge for those familiar with the Thief games, in terms of difficulty and perhaps lower in accessibility to the newer players. It wasn't meant to be a re-creation of what its like to fight or sneak or stealth takedown enemies at all of those games or to mimick real life in anyway. Its just supposed to put all our skills to the test. With that said, I sorta wish the dark mod took a different turn and made the gameplay and difficulty more organic and natural, rather than always relying on bumping it up by forcing certain rules on myself when playing. Like no tools except lockpicks, no KO's, and no killing any human NPC's, put everything back where it was except loot, and keep being spotted to a minimum by only moving around when the enemies our out of sight if I can help it. Your mod is certainly a improvement by a significant margin because its got some consistency that I appreciate  And its also got a whistle and peek through doors Great work of course.

[wesp5]

11 hours ago, TheUnbeholden said:

Your mod is certainly a improvement by a significant margin because its got some consistency that I appreciate  And its also got a whistle and peek through doors Great work of course.

Oh, I just removed whistle and peek doors, because I never use them and the latter has some consistency problems when doing it on doors without a key hole ;). Both are still in Snatcher's Modpack though :)!

Edited April 5 by wesp5

[TheUnbeholden]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:05 AM, wesp5 said:

v2.1 08.04.2024
----
Increased torch glare by using new particles, thanks to nbohr1more.
Packed non mission files into pk4 archive and updated mission names.
Removed Whistle and Peek Door to make distinction to modpack clear.
Changed several subtitles that imply death if target is knocked out.
Unified frob distance of keys and other entities to the default one.

Ah I see. I didn't see that until now