Politics and ttlg

[Bikerdude]

You can't be serious. You create a thread lamenting politics and then you call for the banning of certain people.

If it was as simple as that then I would agree...

 

zb and others are habitual repeat offenders. They have been told to tone it down more times than I can count, yet they continue to troll/bait and wonder around the forum with what seems like complete impunity. This not only tars them but the mods who allow it. But as mentioned before this is only part of the problem, there is an underlying mentality that it is ok for some people to act like arseholes.

 

So what conclusion would you come to when considering the above..?

Edited May 9, 2010 by Bikerdude

[Springheel]

Why can't you just be an adult and ignore people that you have no use for? Or fucking put them in their place (if it's not simply on your ignore list)? Why can't people manage to do this without resorting to running to mommy-moderator? Mommy moderator is exactly what screws things up and gives a petty-political situation it's footing.

 

It's quite simple.

 

Communities need an agreed-upon set of rules (a social contract) in order to function, and human beings have evolved a certain set of instincts that keep us behaving relatively well (at least to our our "tribe").

 

An internet forum is a community like any other, but the general instincts that keep people from acting like complete morons don't function so well in that environment. A sense of anonymity and little need for reciprocal altruism mean that people are far less inclined to behave themselves.

 

So, you can either establish and enforce a set of reasonable guidelines, or you can let the community be held hostage by any dickhead who gets off on behaving like an immature twat, just because he can.

 

Any community that actually wants a positive environment that supports reasoned discussion had better select the first option, and that's what we have done here.

[Namdrol]

Which is why there are rules and a code of conduct in the Thief forums at TTLG.

Bikerdude, I find it sad that you have chosen to remove yourself from there because you're one of those who who won't tolerate bad behaviour and I've seen you repeatedly pull people up.

And on personal level you've helped me a number of times both directly and indirectly through help to others.

I hope you reconsider because you leaving would be a big loss.

I really don't think the more abrasive members have complete immunity in ThiefGen etc, just ask Queue (who I do like), his humour and language can be a bit strong sometimes and he is repeatedly 'told off'.

[Bikerdude]

Bikerdude, I find it sad that you have chosen to remove yourself from there because you're one of those who who won't tolerate bad behaviour

That's not the main reason Nam, I'll be blunt for few who haven't read between the lines and or dont know the whole story...

 

1. Way before DDfix was even invented (by Timeslip) I started several threads on the net related to looking at work around's for Thief1/2 on DX10 gfx hardware (nVidia 8800/280 & ATi 2900/3850) - yes the threads were a bit messy to begin with but I got there in the end. Below are just some of them...

• http://www.ttlg.com/...ad.php?t=122684
• http://www.ttlg.com/...ad.php?t=113501
• http://www.ttlg.com/...ad.php?t=122684
• http://forums.nvidia...showtopic=35500
• http://forums.guru3d...ad.php?t=223321

2. I was the first person to spread the word about DDfix and subsequently started the 1st thread about it.

• http://www.ttlg.com/...ad.php?t=117616

Then nameless voice started a DDfix sticked thread and you'd think after all the work & effort I would have earned a modicum of respect or some common courtesy, but no... the sticked thread dosent even mention me or any of the work I've done. Look at it this way would you start a thread about someone's else's FM after you had copied most of it and then not bother to mention said author...?! Go have a look....

 

3. I made a donation like many others to ttlg when they were looking to keep the thing afloat and as per the terms & conditions I asked for a perk. I Pm'd david twice about this and was ignored. Digi pm'd david on my behalf 2x and again this was ignored.

 

4. And lastly, the icing on the cake is the idiots like St, zb and other who's only contribution is to troll & bait and nothing is down about them...

 

So that's that, my ttlg account is properly gone as of today - I even had to ask 2x for that to fucking done...

Edited May 9, 2010 by Bikerdude

[aidakeeley]

What is simple, really, is that you can see the problems created by this I-can't-deal-with-these-words-myself mentality.

 

You ask what would I do about these mods that don't enforce their "rules" consistently. I've told you.

 

Get rid of these needy, officious pricks, altogether.

 

Rather than have all these arbitrary and subjective rules (agreed upon community standards (ha!)) that are used arbitrarily and subjectively (usually a way of backdooring in a response to some underlying petty-politics). These "standards" & "guidelines" are nothing but bullshit. No one agrees on them. "Cunt" freaks some people right the fuck out, while "fuck" freaks out a fair few too... I know some people that'd rather I didn't take their "Lord's" name in vain... It's all nonsense as far as I'm concerned. These are words and these are posts and any and all can EASILY be dealt with... or ignored (another way of dealing with them).

 

Nobody is literally smacking anyone in the face.

 

You want to stop these problems which ALWAYS arise? Stop running to mommy moderator. Kill mommy moderator.

 

Grow up; Debate or don't debate; Speak or walk away; Choose who and what you respond to; and fucking realize that your clamoring for the ouster of others so that you can be comfortable without all these "terrible and horrifying" words is very simply a perpetuation of the problem.

 

The Big Point: A healthy democracy (now some step in and tell me how this "community" "society" is "not a democracy" and the reveal will be complete) is dependent on free, open, un-cordoned-off, listen-or-ignore speech. The prevailing mentality that has taken hold is designed to undermine this basic tenet.

 

I'm telling you.

 

Now... you can either:

1. Choose to come to your senses and realize I'm right.

2. Argue further that you should have the right to tell the mods who to throw out and who to keep while you ignore the fact that you are being a hypocrite.

3. Ignore what I've said and feel no qualms about it because I'm obviously just a raving lunatic anyway

4. Campaign to get me silenced.

5. Harbor resentment and get me thrown out as soon as I violate some "agreed upon standard" in the future.

6. Get back to building that mission we are all waiting on and leave ALL of this political bullshit to the squabbling squabblers.

Edited May 10, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Serpentine]

Forum communities and drama, how ~bizarre~

[Springheel]

These are words and these are posts and any and all can EASILY be dealt with... or ignored (another way of dealing with them).Nobody is literally smacking anyone in the face.

 

And so what if they were? By extending your logic, going to "Mommy policeman" just creates more "problems". If someone smacks you in the face, tough. Grow up. Fight, or walk away. Easy, right?

 

The simple fact of the matter is that communities have standards. If you want to argue that point, find me an example of a functional community where anything and everything is permitted.

 

As far as this particular community is concerned, we have a vested interest in attracting and retaining talented, mature individuals. The best way to do that is to provide a positive, rational and mature atmosphere for discussion (and several comments lately have suggested we have succeeded). Anyone that goes around spreading negativity (which is profoundly different than simply using the word "fuck"), is actively working against that purpose, and it would be ultimately self-defeating to allow it.

[aidakeeley]

By extending your logic, going to "Mommy policeman" just creates more "problems". If someone smacks you in the face, tough. Grow up. Fight, or walk away. Easy, right?

 

If you can't discern the difference between being physically assaulted and being spoken to... I will choose to come to the conclusion that on this subject there is no further use discussing it with you. You are consciously building strawmen, which I don't appreciate. Or you are an utter kook where this subject is concerned.

 

You hit me in the face -- which actually threatens my well being? I will call a real policeman. There will be no fight. Again, very simple and very much based on the actual situation.

[Diego]

Moderation is a necessity. Period.

 

For those appealing to "freedom of speech" and similar, don't worry, you have plenty of freedom to start your own forum and say whatever you want.

 

I'm always amazed by the inability of people to connect internet behavior with real life. Yes, you can say whatever you want, but not in my house! I also have the right to kick someone's ass out of my house if such presence annoys me.

[ungoliant]

Now... you can either:

1. Choose to come to your senses and realize I'm right.

2. Argue further that you should have the right to tell the mods who to throw out and who to keep while you ignore the fact that you are being a hypocrite.

3. Ignore what I've said and feel no qualms about it because I'm obviously just a raving lunatic anyway

4. Campaign to get me silenced.

5. Harbor resentment and get me thrown out as soon as I violate some "agreed upon standard" in the future.

6. Get back to building that mission we are all waiting on and leave ALL of this political bullshit to the squabbling squabblers.

 

holy crap aida... you've always seemed like a polite, balanced individual in the TDM forums, but this thread seems to have brought out some darker side.

 

Even as an uninvolved reader with an apathetic stance on the issues spoken of, i feel as though i have been directly issued an ultimatum and somewhat insulted at the same time. I choose #6 and will not be coming back to this thread.

[aidakeeley]

That's right! Hell yeah, brudda! Amen. And period!

 

But while you are at it? Kickin' people out! Of your house!

 

Don't pretend that you are talking about a community rather than your "my house".

 

Don't be surprised and offended, shocked and amazed when you are kicked out of someone else's house because you had an argument with one of their bestest bestest buddies.

 

Don't be surprised when you post yer "house rules" that the most annoying, weaselly, whining lapdogs come ceaselessly yip-yapping around you to help them deal every wittle time they get their wittle feewings hurt... until it's just you and your most faithfulestest pack of yip-yapping lapdogs tonguing each other's backsides in the echo chamber.

[Neb]

 

The simple fact of the matter is that communities have standards.  [...] find me an example of a functional community where anything and everything is permitted.

 

[snipped a bit out because I don't actually want a proper argument  ]

 

 

A number of other places I visit have no real rules or much moderation and have found functional balance along with being highly productive, but goddamn it's crazy. Maybe not good for every forum, but I'm still a big fan of laissez-faire moderation. It's not paradise, but it feels more real.

 

 

[aidakeeley]

Thanks ungoliant.

 

I am not issuing any sort of ultimatum at all. If there are other options besides those 6 go for it. It seems to me those 6 will work for everyone. Some imply further interaction, some don't, but there is nothing particularly final about all 6.

 

No ultimatums from me (after all this is not my house). xD

 

I am reasonable and appreciate talking about all the things throughout this forum. I'm not here to destroy this forum. I'm not here to disrespect anyone haphazardly. I'm not picking a fight here and revealing a dark side. It's just that I am quite sure I'm right about this, and so, rather, I'm attempting to shed light on it...

 

Anyway #6 there was very tongue-in-cheek cheekiness! The whole point of all of this is that no one should be intimidated by words. If you've got something further to say here in this thread, then say it. Don't let me or anyone bother you that much with what I say. Ever. Write me off on the subject, if you must. Counter-argue. Tell me to fuck off. Tell me you love me. Just please don't disgust me by calling for my banishment.

 

And don't really, really, really disgust me by choosing #6 all the while harboring some sort of resentment so that you will later find some pretense to call for my banishment.

[Goldchocobo]

Interesting thread.

[Melan]

In the Chinese proverbial sense?

Edited May 10, 2010 by Melan

[Diego]

In the Chinese proverbial sense?

I just hope this doesn't become an interesting forum.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Diego

[7upMan]

 

You want to stop these problems which ALWAYS arise? Stop running to mommy moderator. Kill mommy moderator.

 

Grow up; Debate or don't debate; Speak or walk away; Choose who and what you respond to; and fucking realize that your clamoring for the ouster of others so that you can be comfortable without all these "terrible and horrifying" words is very simply a perpetuation of the problem.

 

The Big Point: A healthy democracy (now some step in and tell me how this "community" "society" is "not a democracy" and the reveal will be complete) is dependent on free, open, un-cordoned-off, listen-or-ignore speech. The prevailing mentality that has taken hold is designed to undermine this basic tenet.

 

 

What you are looking for is another forum like 4chan, where trolling seems to have been made into a form of art, so to say. I for one am really happy that this is not the case here. TDM would have no future if it were.

 

Now... you can either:

1. Choose to come to your senses and realize I'm right.

2. Argue further that you should have the right to tell the mods who to throw out and who to keep while you ignore the fact that you are being a hypocrite.

3. Ignore what I've said and feel no qualms about it because I'm obviously just a raving lunatic anyway

4. Campaign to get me silenced.

5. Harbor resentment and get me thrown out as soon as I violate some "agreed upon standard" in the future.

6. Get back to building that mission we are all waiting on and leave ALL of this political bullshit to the squabbling squabblers.

I'm in favour of no. 3, if I may be so frank. I just don't like your intelligent responses.

 

You hit me in the face -- which actually threatens my well being? I will call a real policeman. There will be no fight. Again, very simple and very much based on the actual situation.

 

You hit me in the face physically? I'll call a policeman. In that I agree with you. You hit me in the face verbally? I'll call the forum moderator to, well, moderate. In both cases you call the right person to deal with this. Yes, you are right, it is very simple.

 

Anyway, for me it's end of discussion. I have made my point, and I am happy to know that the general consensus is that we stay friendly and polite.

[Springheel]

A number of other places I visit have no real rules or much moderation and have found functional balance along with being highly productive, but goddamn it's crazy. Maybe not good for every forum, but I'm still a big fan of laissez-faire moderation. It's not paradise, but it feels more real.

 

Since you qualify it by saying "much moderation" then I assume there are still some limits on what is permitted. In the best forums people police themselves, and the rules are rarely needed, but they are still there to be used if necessary.

 

In my opinion, this forum is relatively "laissez-faire". In the 5+ years I've been here we've only banned a handful of people.

 

If you can't discern the difference between being physically assaulted and being spoken to... I will choose to come to the conclusion that on this subject there is no further use discussing it with you. You are consciously building strawmen, which I don't appreciate. Or you are an utter kook where this subject is concerned.

 

It's not a strawman at all. It's the logical extension of your argument, unless you care to qualify what the difference is.

 

As I see it, the difference between being verbally assaulted and being physically assaulted is just a matter of degrees. If we assume we're just talking about being "smacked in the face" (as opposed to more violent forms of attack), then the only difference between that and a verbal assault is some light tissue damage.

 

You hit me in the face -- which actually threatens my well being?

 

Unless you define "well-being" as being limited strictly to tissue damage, your well-being (which I would say includes your ego, your sense of security, your sense of self-worth) can also be threatened by verbal assaults. There's no question a physical attack has the potential to be worse, but that provides no clear justification for protecting against one but not the other.

[New Horizon]

You hit me in the face physically? I'll call a policeman. In that I agree with you. You hit me in the face verbally? I'll call the forum moderator to, well, moderate. In both cases you call the right person to deal with this. Yes, you are right, it is very simple.

 

Exactly!

 

Having endured daily beatings, both verbal and physical, while growing up...both at school and from my father when he drank, I've come to a different conclusion about people being dicks both on the internet and in the physical world. If I don't like it, I don't ignore it, I do something about it...and I'm quite happy that the rest of the Moderators here feel the same way when it comes to dealing with idiots.

 

No one has ever been banned unfairly from the TDM forums. Posters will disagree, or argue and that's fine...but it's pretty easy to see when some cross a certain line. You know they're simply out to hurt people, and stir up trouble. That has never been tolerated here.

 

My wife and I keep an atmosphere in our home that makes people feel at ease and welcomed. I'm happy to see that same atmosphere here in these forums. Doesn't feel the same over at TTLG sadly.

[Melan]

Granted, this forum has some 1,350 members and TTLG has 28,280. That's more than 20 times as big if we assume the same ratio of active users. It is generally impossible to have a community of that size operate like a small one, just like it is a different job managing a city than a village where everyone knows everyone else.

[aidakeeley]

What you are looking for is another forum like 4chan, where trolling seems to have been made into a form of art

 

No.

 

Its not.

 

It's not what I'm looking for at all, I'm looking for adults to act like adults and stop relying on mommy moderator to protect them from speech.

 

And again, I don't appreciate yet another strawman being erected. Take that strawman; your attempt to attribute to me those (censored for delicate eyes) posts you linked; your assertion that you can be hit in the face verbally... take all of that and shove them right back from whence you pulled them.

 

No one has ever been hit in the face "verbally".

 

That's some serious shit. It's not some nifty, abstract concept to be used in a desperate attempt to find some footing in an argument.

 

...

 

No one has ever been banned unfairly from the TDM forums.

 

How perfectly certain you seem to be about this. How could you be otherwise? You and your "Moderator" friends (almost god-like God-like!). I guess those that have been banned might have a different take. But they aren't here to speak for themselves because they "beat" you with their words and you couldn't manage to endure such frightful verbs and adjectives.

 

While others here may want to play silly games and try and equate physical abuse with text typed into a message board, anyone who has actually been physically abused knows the difference. So I don't buy your nonsense here at all. And with you as well, on this subject, I have lost all respect and have nothing further to discuss.

 

I think, especially considering what you claim to have experienced -- that what you have said in your attempt to equate physical abuse with message board text is especially pathetic.

 

See how easy that is?

 

I got 3 people now that I have absolutely nothing more to bother with on this subject. You've reduced yourselves to absurdity.

 

...

 

A number of other places I visit have no real rules or much moderation and have found functional balance along with being highly productive, but goddamn it's crazy.

 

Astonishing, eh?

 

Functional balance? Highly productive? Goddamned crazy?

 

C'mon. No way. It's got to be trolls' paradise. Who can resist a troll? Oh? An adult, you say? You don't say. All by herself? To choose not to respond? To choose to respond in kind? To choose to make sure it's a troll? All by herself?

 

Impossible! Impermissible! Impolite! Impolitic!

[New Horizon]

I think, especially considering what you claim to have experienced -- that what you have said in your attempt to equate physical abuse with message board text is especially pathetic.

 

What I 'claim' to have experienced? Pathetic?

 

...I have lost all respect and have nothing further to discuss...

 

Likewise friend, likewise.

[Diego]

Oh, we are adults.. trying to deal with a 10 years old. Seriously, enter a work environment, behave like you are now in front of your boss and tell me you are not gonna be dragged out of the building.

 

This forum has the most patient moderation. Many posts easily qualified as flamebaits worth banning already.

[Springheel]

I'm looking for adults to act like adults

 

You're certainly not leading by example.

 

So far you've relied on mocking what you don't like ("mommy moderator"), making claims that you can't back up ("they aren't here to speak for themselves because they "beat" you with their words"), and writing people off when they ask questions you don't want to answer ("You've reduced yourselves to absurdity").

 

None of those are particularly valid ways of convincing people to agree with your position.

[Melan]

aidakeeley: I think there is one cardinal rule for interaction in civilised company, and that's "don't be a dick". Right now, on this subject, you are breaking it, while elsewhere, you are perfectly capable of carrying a normal and mostly polite conversation. We would rather have the second aidakeeley than the one in this thread. Thanks.