The Afterlife?

[RPGista]

I really like some of the points you guys are making. I particularly like the views about faith, faith in general, as a drive towards survival. Its one of the things that explain why we are so "irrational" most of our time, not capable of following logic as we understand it. It does happen that we need blind faith to live, to get out everyday and try to succeed, despite having no reason to believe we are likely to do so (or at least, more so than others). You can sense it everywhere, when you want to impress a cute girl, when you set out your dream career as a kid, when you go about having a good day, immune to the fact that a multitude of sentient beings around you are experiencing despair or suffering as the day goes by. If you were able to weight in the actual probabilities of the things you want to do, the brain would freeze before the simplest of actions.

 

The fact you can derive strenght, focus and a feeling of safety from mental assumptions that might have nothing to do with reality (that I will succeed despite all odds, that I am somehow unique and destined to great things, without any evidence from the outside to suggest that, etc), is an incredible tool for any living being and is a major part of what religion provides to the believer - a sense of strength, of protection, and ultimately, redemption, feelings that are a great incentive to keep investing on that belief, to keep it alive, despite all the glaring contradictions that arise from observing the actual world and how the events unfold before you/everybody.

 

I remember loosing the last bits of my religious beliefs at around 12 or so, by observing just how much suffering was going on around me, around the globe, not only for other human beings but also non-human animals. You dont usually notice those things as a self-absorbed child. But the fact that, for no appearent reason, millions of conscious beings were suffering some sort of distress at any given second (being chased, being afflicted by all sorts of diseases, are hungry or thirsty, they are in captivity, suffering phsicological terror, are being killed, etc), and that had always been like that since it all began, that feeling wouldnt leave me and it became clear that this fact could never be reconciled with the notion of a sensitive being that had the power to stop that cycle, but wouldnt. Its the whole "if god can prevent suffering, but doesnt, either he is unwilling, or he isnt capable of doing so". That fact alone showed me that this caring father-god who looks after his creation, which was what I had been taught and made to believe, was a blatant lie.

 

Its also painful to admit that our natural lack of empathy for others, specially non-human animals, has been historically reinforced by a religion that has defined all life as a resource for humans, the chosen species, to be exploited without concerns, for lacking a "soul". Still to this day, educated people have a hard time conceding that other animals are rational, are capable of feelings, and choose to ignore how our life style choices impact on the living world.

 

The most depressing bit is, without us around to create new and innovative ways of causing harm and killing other beings for our own benefit, life would still be going on like that, beings killing beings in order to survive, untill the earth is destroyed. Thats some "meaning of life" to wonder about, for sure.

Edited August 4, 2015 by RPGista

[Springheel]

It does happen that we need blind faith to live, to get out everyday and try to succeed, despite having no reason to believe we are likely to do so (or at least, more so than others). You can sense it everywhere, when you want to impress a cute girl, when you set out your dream career as a kid, when you go about having a good day, immune to the fact that a multitude of sentient beings around you are experiencing despair or suffering as the day goes by.

 

 

That sounds to me like optimism or positive thinking, not faith. Optimism is, "I don't know if I'm going to succeed but I'm going to try my best." Faith would be, "I know I can't fail."

 

 

The fact you can derive strenght, focus and a feeling of safety from mental assumptions that might have nothing to do with reality (that I will succeed despite all odds, that I am somehow unique and destined to great things, without any evidence from the outside to suggest that, etc), is an incredible tool for any living being and is a major part of what religion provides to the believer

 

 

The same thing could be said of a lucky rabbit's foot. The owner's faith that it works and protects him from harm might make him feel safer and stronger, but it says nothing about the rabbit's foot itself. Not only that, but I'm not sure an artificial sense of strength or safety is necessarily a good thing. There's a reason why we try to wean children off security blankets.

[woah]

I would love to have the option of halting senescence and a secret hope of mine is that science will permit me to do so, but at the same time the idea that the universe is the product of a human-like being/intelligence and that there is "meaning" to it (a human construction) is something I find underwhelming and disturbing.

[OrbWeaver]

Still to this day, educated people have a hard time conceding that other animals are rational, are capable of feelings, and choose to ignore how our life style choices impact on the living world.

 

I don't think there's much doubt that some animals experience and display emotions, and a few of them are even capable of simple problem-solving. However I am not aware of any convincing evidence that animals are "rational" in the human sense of the word (i.e. being capable of advanced deductive reasoning).

[Destined]

 

I don't think there's much doubt that some animals experience and display emotions, and a few of them are even capable of simple problem-solving. However I am not aware of any convincing evidence that animals are "rational" in the human sense of the word (i.e. being capable of advanced deductive reasoning).

 

The question is, how advanced you are thinking. I recently read an article on chimpanzees using fire to heat their food. Also some crows are known to play pranks on each other. Of course, this is not really as advanced as humans, but it demonstrates, that other species are at least on the best way to reach "human rationalism". If something like this is really desirable - seeing how humans treat mother earth (don't get me wrong, I would not want to miss the comfort of modern life, but at least I know, that it comes at a cost) - is another aspect.

[Anderson]

Its the whole "if god can prevent suffering, but doesnt, either he is unwilling, or he isnt capable of doing so". That fact alone showed me that this caring father-god who looks after his creation, which was what I had been taught and made to believe, was a blatant lie.

 

 

 

I agree with you, and I don't.

 

Some of the older, more experienced people will tell you that many times poor people are guilty themselves for being where they are. Not wanting to work, only counting on a freebie from others. It's a way of life for many beggars.

I do feel a lot for people BORN in poverty. Those who work. Who want to do something with their life. They are often those who NEVER cry about their life. And I will help them, because they deserve it.

 

I think that it's just a test in many ways for yourself too. It's not about survival of the fittest. I don't believe in evolutionary theories concerning mankind. We can change ourselves. Genes mean nothing. Our will and character is what will drive us forward through the impossible. Those brave, hard working men & women that managed to get up from poverty are a testimony to that.

[OrbWeaver]

Some of the older, more experienced people will tell you that many times poor people are guilty themselves for being where they are. Not wanting to work, only counting on a freebie from others.

Because they're spoiled, ignorant morons who've never experienced poverty for themselves and have no idea what an inescapable pit it can be. Yes, there are some people who choose to sponge off the welfare state because it's the easiest thing to do, but if you think that the average beggar can "just get a job" you are living in the same delusional fairy-land inhabited by those who tell depressed people to "just try being happy" and rape victims that they were "probably asking for it".

[HMart]

Sorry for the of topic and not really giving anything useful for the subject at hand but there's a reason for that, right now nothing serious has happened on this thread but i need to say this, i would not encourage this type of discussion on the forum, not that i'm asking for censorship far from it, but because from my experience conversation about religion, politics or even philosophy are very sensitive (religion vs atheism even more) and can lead to very hot discussions and make people hate each other in a very serious manner, and i would hate that because of this, two members of TDM team or even forum users become separated and angry because of ideological ideals, like the old say, says, "want to keep your friends, don't lend them money and don't speak with them about religion or politics", no one started a war over disagreements about music, movies, sports, games, tech, etc, but many started wars over religion and politics, just my two cents.

[demagogue]

I know that can happen sometimes, but TBH this forum is one of the few where we can talk about religion or politics and it'll still be civil, people won't take it personally, and everybody will still be connected by what's really important for this forum, the game. Or I should say, I'd worry more about a "serious" debate over Thief & Dark Mod canon than a debate over real world religion or politics, as far as hard feelings or grudges go.

[Springheel]

Genes mean nothing.

 

 

Try telling that to someone born with autism, Down syndrome, Cystic fibrosis or Type 2 Neurofribromatosis. Not to mention more mild genetic conditions like being short or physically unattractive. Genes may not be everything but they're certainly a significant factor.

 

 

but because from my experience conversation about religion, politics or even philosophy are very sensitive (religion vs atheism even more) and can lead to very hot discussions and make people hate each other in a very serious manner

 

 

I'd like to think we're all adults here (or at least mature enough to act that way). Anyone who doesn't want to participate in the conversation can easily avoid reading and/or posting in this thread.

 

In terms of "hot" discussions, I doubt anything is likely to get as heated as the Thief 4 threads from last year.

[HMart]

Ok lets hope this continues being a mature and civilized discussion, but like Springheel said

Anyone who doesn't want to participate in the conversation can easily avoid reading and/or posting in this thread.

I will do so, forget that i was even here.

[Sotha]

Just wanted to comment that is is not probably the topics of religion and politics themselves that spark the flame. It is more about mismatching values of the discussers. (The thread "The Values of Values" is one example.) If you operate in a cautious and respectful way, values can also safely discussed.

 

We must be able to talk about values if we are to ever understand (or be aware of) the values of others. Your nation comprises of people with wide array of values, and the nation cannot function if the people cannot function with each other. Thus, value discussion is important, and it is good to practice it when opportunity arises.

 

Keep it on, I've been reading everything up till now and I'm enjoying the discussion from the audience. Usually, when people start getting personal and rude in their arguments, then it is usually good time for the discussers to consider if continuing is worth the negative feelings the interaction provokes. In the end, it is just another internet discussion.

[RPGista]

Hehehe, its been pretty easy to keep it light so far, everyone here seems very educated for some reason. We all know each other anyway.

 

Our bodies are made from the very same matter as most of our relatives (lets say mammals). Bones are the same matter, muscles, tissues, organs and etc. Brains too. There are lungs, a liver, kidneys, heart, they work the same, they do the very same things, the blood cells, you name it. DNA, pretty close. The differences are of scale. Im being a bit simplistic, but you get me. Our perception of how complex other animals are are always changing, just as "our" (if you look from an euro-centric view) perception of what qualifies as a human being was (think of how they aproached and treated indiginous populations when the cultural gap was too big for them to be recognized as "advanced"). I think it was jane godall that came up with the first observations of chimps using tools, which was supposed to be what characterised humans above all animals. Theres very little reason to believe our mind works in a significantly different way from that of most of our comparable relatives. Again, a matter of scale. All animals you look at do the very same things we do, bar specific behaviour tied to culture. We navigate the world around us, solve the problems, look for stuff that allows survival, mates and what not. We fear the same things, are hurt by the same things, react in the same way to them. We all know this. It takes a lot of education for you to be able to ignore and rationalise this common sense.

 

Connecting this to the subject, and adressing Anderson, I would not say that theres such a thing as people choosing to be poor. In fact, I dont believe we should allow anyone to be "poor" at all, Im a classic social anarchist on this matter for sure. Everyone should get enough for a confortable life no matter what, and that should free you to live your life to its fullest potential - no material constraints, you can follow your dreams 100%. Thats a sort of image of a world admired by many, but appearently impossible to obtain. Even to imagine it, how it could work. But this world view was created by people, thinking about other people in a most generous way. Perhaps naiively generous, but that remains to be seen. What is interesting is that these humanistic views were conceived without any sort of mystical justification. Or even inspiration. It was designed by people, for people. And thats how in my opinion we should continue to make our progress. Tied to this place, to this time, to each other.

Edited August 5, 2015 by RPGista

[161803398874989]

I'm fairly certain this discussion has kept on track because we have a disproportionate amount of "old" (30+) people here, and so the forum culture is just more mature overall.

 

 

 

Even to imagine it, how it could work.

Robots, man. AI is getting pretty damn good, and we'll probably be able to automate a lot of things like food production in the future.

What I'm worried about, though, is that this will not lead to a world where everyone can get the food they need and live a comfortable life without having to work very hard. I'm worried that a few people are just going to pick it up and use it to get rich, making other people work just as hard and compete for fewer and fewer jobs, stuck for 8 hours a day doing something they hate, just to go home and be exhausted and have no fun at all.

[Airship Ballet]

[...] can lead to very hot discussions and make people hate each other in a very serious manner

I mean, exaggeration, but any decent headway in any discussion is typically made from pulling ideas apart, and that's just inherently confrontational, not on a personal level, but some people do take it personally. Call an argument backwards and they respond "I'm not backwards", like it's hard to tell the difference between argument and person. It's usually a defensive person who starts arguments, rather than an aggressive one, and it's irritating when something gets derailed by it. If you want a proper discussion, and to make your case, you need to work off the other's argument, and if they take that personally you'll never get anywhere. There was that topic, whichever one it was, where somebody, I forget who, took exception to having their argument called hypocritical, and just kinda folded their arms and refused to carry on. Then you tell them to stop being a baby and they're like "AHAH, SEE, AD HOMINEM." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one.

 

I'd comment on the topic at hand, but it seems to be meandering between weird stuff we can only really guess at. I like debates that have results at the end, rather than this. I mean, yeah, it's fun, but it's all been said before. If there was a debate about this, and a straw poll at the end that determined whether the afterlife was real or not, I'd be down, but as it is I can't say I see the point, other than recreation.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Airship Ballet

[161803398874989]

I mean, exaggeration, but any decent headway in any discussion is typically made from pulling ideas apart, and that's just inherently confrontational, not on a personal level, but some people do take it personally. Call an argument backwards and they respond "I'm not backwards", like it's hard to tell the difference between argument and person. It's usually a defensive person who starts arguments, rather than an aggressive one, and it's irritating when something gets derailed by it. If you want a proper discussion, and to make your case, you need to work off the other's argument, and if they take that personally you'll never get anywhere. There was that topic, whichever one it was, where somebody, I forget who, took exception to having their argument called hypocritical, and just kinda folded their arms and refused to carry on. Then you tell them to stop being a baby and they're like "AHAH, SEE, AD HOMINEM." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one.

 

I'd comment on the topic at hand, but it seems to be meandering between weird stuff we can only really guess at. I like debates that have results at the end, rather than this. I mean, yeah, it's fun, but it's all been said before. If there was a debate about this, and a straw poll at the end that determined whether the afterlife was real or not, I'd be down, but as it is I can't say I see the point, other than recreation.

I think it's a mistake to see a debate as something that needs to have an outcome or a specific end point. A debate can act as a sounding board for your own beliefs and allows you to examine and, if necessary, update those beliefs. It's also an exercise in reasoning and understanding. Just because there isn't some direct payoff at the end doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses.

[Destined]

I think it's a mistake to see a debate as something that needs to have an outcome or a specific end point. A debate can act as a sounding board for your own beliefs and allows you to examine and, if necessary, update those beliefs. It's also an exercise in reasoning and understanding. Just because there isn't some direct payoff at the end doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses.

 

I think it is even better, when there is no "real result". That way you can just learn new perspectives and maybe gain something for yourself, without anyone telling you "I told you so" and the "loser" of the debate moping in the corner

 

[Anderson]

Because they're spoiled, ignorant morons who've never experienced poverty for themselves and have no idea what an inescapable pit it can be. Yes, there are some people who choose to sponge off the welfare state because it's the easiest thing to do, but if you think that the average beggar can "just get a job" you are living in the same delusional fairy-land inhabited by those who tell depressed people to "just try being happy" and rape victims that they were "probably asking for it".

There are always exceptions as I said.

 

Try to spend a couple of hours with a company different beggars and you'll get that unfortunately the romantic image of the good people who just happen to be unlucky and poor from "Robin Hood" isn't always true. It's a lifestyle.

I'm prone to say that it's about 50/50. There are good people everywhere and it's roughly the same in the world for every social class (maybe except the richest people, lots of questions there).

 

I don't want to be cynical. Once again - people who are too busy working their way out of it in the most humble jobs are stories worth of novels.

 

 

 

 

Try telling that to someone born with autism, Down syndrome, Cystic fibrosis or Type 2 Neurofribromatosis. Not to mention more mild genetic conditions like being short or physically unattractive. Genes may not be everything but they're certainly a significant factor.

Those illnesses may be triggered by certain behaviours of parents as well.

The question is: is it in our DNA to have or not to have a strong character to defeat out weaknesses and prevail? Can we train it in ourselves? Can we change our character? That's the hardest battle fought every day.

 

Religions usually explain that it's the parent's sins that generate the illneses.

 

I don't know how you feel about it, but the expression "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" shouldn't be so conclusive as it is.

If my father was a thief, it's not certain I will be. It is much likelier, of course! However it's a decision that the individual has to make.

 

conversation about religion, politics or even philosophy are very sensitive (religion vs atheism even more) and can lead to very hot discussions and make people hate each other in a very serious manner

No it's ok. I respect everyone with their views as they are. Just sharing views on life.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Anderson

[Gast]

About what has been said regarding the possible heating up of that thread, I'm really pleased to see how smooth this exchange is. Bridgeport is full of gentlemen.

 

Those illnesses may be triggered by certain behaviours of parents as well.

The question is: is it in our DNA to have or not to have a strong character to defeat out weaknesses and prevail? Can we train it in ourselves? Can we change our character? That's the hardest battle fought every day.

Religions usually explain that it's the parent's sins that generate the illneses.

 

I don't know how you feel about it, but the expression "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" shouldn't be so conclusive as it is.
If my father was a thief, it's not certain I will be. It is much likelier, of course! However it's a decision that the individual has to make.

 

It indeed shouldn't be so conclusive. That sins -> illnesses argument makes no sense at all. And it's pretty violent for a god of mercy to blame children for their parents' actions. I agree with you in that matter : we can to a certain extent choose what to do with our life but changing your behaviour (like being a thief) and changing your genes isn't the same thing. It would imply magic or a high degree of not yet reached scientific knowledge to change one's genes during his/her lifetime. Also, it is not because being a beggar is a way of life that it's something you necessarily choose.

[Destined]

Those illnesses may be triggered by certain behaviours of parents as well.

The question is: is it in our DNA to have or not to have a strong character to defeat out weaknesses and prevail? Can we train it in ourselves? Can we change our character? That's the hardest battle fought every day.

 

 

I don't know how you feel about it, but the expression "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" shouldn't be so conclusive as it is.

If my father was a thief, it's not certain I will be. It is much likelier, of course! However it's a decision that the individual has to make.

 

I am not sure, what you're going at wiht your first statement. It may be true that there are many diseases (and especially handycaps) that are brought upon children by bad behaviour of the parents (e.g. smoking/drinking during pregnancy), but a lot of diseases are genetic (Trisomy 21, Type 1 diabetes, hemophilia) and there's nothing parents can do to prevent that. It has been shown that even some psycological disorders have genetic influence. A recent study I read was about rats, that got electric shocks, on certain conditions. Their offspring exhibited a fear under the same circumstances, even though they have never experienced the electric shocks (I would have to look for the article again, I cannot remember the exact circumstances). I am not saying, that we can inherit memories Assassin's Creed style, but there is proof, that behaviour is not only trained, but to a not insignificant part transfered genetically. This also does not mean, that you cannot trump over your inherited fears, but you will have to work a lot harder for it, than other people. BTW the same goes for being poor. Of course, it is possible to overcome poverty through hard work and dedication (and maybe a bit of luck), but it is much easier for people to succeed, if they haven't been poor in the first place. For example rich kids can attend better (and thus more expensive) schools, while poor kids or their parents cannot afford the same education. If you go a step lower, it may be, that the kids cannot go to school, because they have to work to get something to eat. The current discussion about refugees in Europe clearly shows how lifes are uprooted and how hard it is for these people to get a roof over their head, not to talk about getting any work. These people will most likely not be able to amount any riches ever.

[Airship Ballet]

I think it's a mistake to see a debate as something that needs to have an outcome or a specific end point. A debate can act as a sounding board for your own beliefs and allows you to examine and, if necessary, update those beliefs. It's also an exercise in reasoning and understanding. Just because there isn't some direct payoff at the end doesn't mean it doesn't have its uses.

Well, the end result was an extreme example, the kind I enjoy but would never expect from purely existential thought-flinging. In this case it would be updating your own beliefs, which just doesn't seem to happen. There's no real impetus to really take on-board another idea, because you can consider each other's views, but then nothing follows. Neither is likely to change their view on it, and if they did it's just living to have it changed another day. Hypotheticals and no conclusion in sight, it's just not something I enjoy. Sure, it's fun, it passes time while you're waiting for a train, but I wouldn't actively look to talk about it because it leads nowhere. I'd rather debate something that can actually change as per the thoughts raised, because then I'm getting the exercise in reasoning and understanding along with something a lot more palpable. I'd like to convince somebody to take a look into a certain genre of book they've always disregarded, or convince them that there's good reason to explore something they don't want to. Maybe I'm a product of the age of instant gratification.

That way you can just learn new perspectives and maybe gain something for yourself, without anyone telling you "I told you so" and the "loser" of the debate moping in the corner.

You learn new perspectives from having your thoughts challenged, that's simply how it works. If it's a super one-sided affirmation where you're encouraged and nodded at as you talk, you might improve your perspective just by having to put your thoughts into words, but the best means by far is to have yourself questioned. How would you learn anything new if people just told you what you already knew for 60 years and then you died? It doesn't have to be aggressive, nor does it have to be a win/lose situation, rather it rarely is and both come away winners. I'd liken a scenario in which two people just pose questions to one another--afraid of turning it into anything more than a thoughtful cuddle session--to a wheel spinning in mud.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Airship Ballet

[Anderson]

That sins -> illnesses argument makes no sense at all. And it's pretty violent for a god of mercy to blame children for their parents' actions.

Oh in a way it's true, other times not quite.

Being as subjective as I am, sometimes looking at some people's behaviour and attitude in life inherited illnesses were deserved. Other times I truly wonder how did he/she deserve it.

 

There's as many different people in this world as there are opinions! By the way cannonical religious texts don't mention God to be good or bad; merciful or cruel. He's just mentioned without any adjective usually. An omnipresent and omnipotent God has no need of such definitions.

 

 

 

 

but a lot of diseases are genetic

Yes, If I remember correctly there is a chance that they may appear at a maximum of 8 generations after it's first appearance. So no wonder sudden inherited illnesses appear out of nowhere with perfectly healthy parents.

To each his own burden I suppose.

[Springheel]

By the way cannonical religious texts don't mention God to be good or bad; merciful or cruel. He's just mentioned without any adjective usually. An omnipresent and omnipotent God has no need of such definitions.

What "religious texts" are you referring to? The Bible says exactly those things, in multiple places.

 

"The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made" (Psalm 145:9).

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" Exodus 34:14

"Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him" (Psalm 34:8).

"I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.” Ezekiel 25:17

“O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; For His lovingkindness is everlasting.” – 1 Chronicles 16:34

"Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation” Exodus 32:10-11

 

 

 

 

Yes, If I remember correctly there is a chance that they may appear at a maximum of 8 generations after it's first appearance. So no wonder sudden inherited illnesses appear out of nowhere with perfectly healthy parents.

You may want to do a little more reading on both these subjects.

[Anderson]

What "religious texts" are you referring to? The Bible says exactly those things, in multiple places.

 

"The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made" (Psalm 145:9).

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" Exodus 34:14

"Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him" (Psalm 34:8).

"I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.” Ezekiel 25:17

“O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; For His lovingkindness is everlasting.” – 1 Chronicles 16:34

"Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation” Exodus 32:10-11

My mistake. I was reffering to the New Testament.

Misread God for Jesus: "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God"

Edited August 6, 2015 by Anderson

[Anderson]

No desire to kick a dead horse, but since it's a game forum - did anyone here try "Primordia"?

That point & click adventure had a cool perspective on religion (oddly enough, what machines have to do with dogmas?). Beyond that it's just one of the coolest adventure games in the last few decades!