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#101 Judith

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:13 PM

If someone releases a mission for TDM, we can safely assume that they want people to play it.  If we make an update that breaks the map, so that it is no longer playable, we're actually interfering with the mapper's original intention.

 

Abusimplea silly reaction aside, I linked to that post to stress that author may be perfectly fine with design issues or smaller not game-breaking bugs, and it's not up to anyone to fix that. But I agree that there should be some way to have game-breaking bugs fixed, if they're introduced by subsequent versions.

 

IMO it's also worth noting that the maximum engine compatibility with everything released ever is an impossible goal. It can actually hold back the engine development, if you want to make e.g. some better assets or rewrite shading. It might be better to have an archive of "milestone versions" or just versions before major changes. Like, IMO 2.05 was the most complete package for certain era (hard stencil shadows), and it could be available as optional download for legacy missions.



#102 STiFU

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 02:44 PM

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IMO it's also worth noting that the maximum engine compatibility with everything released ever is an impossible goal. It can actually hold back the engine development, if you want to make e.g. some better assets or rewrite shading. 

Maintaining compatibility to existing missions is one of the main goals throughout development and I don't think that is ever gonna change. Either the change must be fully compatible or the broken maps have to be fixed. Never should a player be required to download an older version of tdm to play some "deprecated" FM.


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#103 R Soul

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 03:30 PM

A TDM version of NewDark's DML system would keep FMs intact yet allow people to fix compatibility problems.



#104 Abusimplea

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 08:22 PM

Since the mod was released in 2009, we've only had one "compulsive mapper" who does this.  Let's guard against any concept creep that might suggest that this is a wide-spread problem.  The vast majority of mappers in the community have the ability to see and avoid obvious breeches of common courtesy.

Why not fix the problem for the general case when you have the chance. It never hurts to implement some drama prevention in a community full of artists.



#105 Springheel

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 08:51 PM

Why not fix the problem for the general case when you have the chance.

 

 

I thought that's what we were doing.


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#106 Obsttorte

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 03:14 AM

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I think that this discussion is going a bit into the wrong direction. As Springheel already mentioned above we only have one mapper that was actually violating the rules discussed in this thread in the past. The discussion could easely lead to the assumption that such misbehaviour is common sense in the community and everyone keeps raging about someone else stealing their stuff or changing things in an unwanted way. This is simple not the case.

 

Of course it could be worthwhile to point new mappers to some basic rules common among the community, but all this licence and encryption discussions makes me sad. Do we really need all of that to avoid that one person might cause us some headaches in the future? Not to mention that we are doing this discussion in the public, so on of the first things someone new to TDM who takes a look at the forum might see is us talking about the violation of mental property. :(

 

I think the rules can be kept pretty simple:

  • Don't copy stuff from others without asking for permission. If you violate this rule, fix the problem or your mission won't end up in the ingame downloader and any link to that mission in the forum will get removed (except maybe in the respective betatesting thread, as it isn't public iirc).
  • Missions will get updated if a TDM update breaks them. This includes technical issues. No artistical changes will be done. (Obviously a TDM update won't break level geometry,so there is no need to alter it). Obviously mission authors will be contacted if possible.
  • If you reuse stuff from others, assuming it was ok, and the original author tells you it isn't, don't argue about your "good intentions". Just get the problem out of the world.

If someone creates a mission with obvious references to the Thief franchise that might get us into licence issues, we simple don't support the mission. This has worked in the past. So why not just expand this approach that to missions misusing the mental property of others?! If it works for the first case it should do so for the latter.

 

So in summary what we need to do imho is to keep things as they are, as this has worked out over all those years.


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#107 OrbWeaver

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 07:42 AM

.



#108 OrbWeaver

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 07:48 AM

Of course it could be worthwhile to point new mappers to some basic rules common among the community, but all this licence and encryption discussions makes me sad. Do we really need all of that to avoid that one person might cause us some headaches in the future?

 

Avoiding headaches in future is exactly the point of having clearly-defined license conditions. The intention is not to sue people, but to make it less likely that people will end up getting sued (or threatening to sue each other) because of misunderstandings and poor communication.

 

If people don't know what they are and are not allowed to do, then we are just relying on people's personal opinions and guesswork, which in some case will lead to conflicts when people don't interpret things in the same way. Relying on "common sense" might seem like a nice easy option, but in reality there is no such thing.



#109 Springheel

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 08:49 AM

all this licence and encryption discussions makes me sad. Do we really need all of that to avoid that one person might cause us some headaches in the future? 

 

 

I don't like it either, but what other options do we have?


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#110 STiFU

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 08:55 AM

Regardless of this licensing discussion, we should go forward and pin that "Editor's Code" to the forum so that this is sorted at least. Springheel, would you mind compiling your list once again with the feedback from this thread and posting it in a new pinned thread for people to sign/ackknowledge?

 

I could also do it, but your writing always sounds better than mine... ^^


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#111 Obsttorte

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 03:54 PM

 

Avoiding headaches in future is exactly the point of having clearly-defined license conditions. The intention is not to sue people, but to make it less likely that people will end up getting sued (or threatening to sue each other) because of misunderstandings and poor communication.

 

If people don't know what they are and are not allowed to do, then we are just relying on people's personal opinions and guesswork, which in some case will lead to conflicts when people don't interpret things in the same way. Relying on "common sense" might seem like a nice easy option, but in reality there is no such thing.

I agree with you that it is a good idea to avoid misunderstandings by making up clear rules (that's what I've meant by basic rules). However, I think it is worthwhile to point out that the vast majority of the members have never done anything they are not allowed to do (in opposition to the impression that may arose by reading this thread). And even if we make up clear rules, you can't really hinder anyone from breaking them.


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#112 Jetrell

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 09:38 PM

 

I don't like it either, but what other options do we have?

I'm glad to hear that you don't like this path either. As for other options, how about doing what Obsttorte is suggesting. It seems like a very sensible approach to not only this current predicament but it also addresses future concerns.

 

Once you go down that other path there is no turning back but I think you already know that.



#113 Xarg

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:00 AM

.. even if we make up clear rules, you can't really hinder anyone from breaking them.

 

No, but you can censure their asses to the ground, and have an easily linkable and justified reason for doing so. It's sorta almost the same thing with a law IRL. Making a law that says murder is illegal doesn't stop people killing each other. It does give you a pretty solid justification for locking the murderer up for x years, because there's a law against murder, and they broke it.


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#114 OrbWeaver

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 07:20 AM

EDIT: never mind.



#115 Springheel

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:48 AM

I'm glad to hear that you don't like this path either.

 

 

The reason I don't like it is because we're essentially making warning labels telling people not to eat Tide Pods.  I think it insults the intelligence of the average person.  Not only that, but as soon as you try to lock down hard and fast rules, you inevitably create loopholes, grey areas, and unintended consequences.  So I'm not thrilled to be having these discussions.

 

On the other hand, the reason we're here is because we have a mapper who continually eats Tide Pods, and the ensuing drama regularly spews up into the forums.  It has done, and continues to do, significant harm to the community, and it needs to be stopped.  Will codified rules and consequences stop it?  I have no idea.  All I know is that we seem to be stuck in a pattern over the last three years: 1. Mapper commits an easily avoidable offense, 2. Mapper doubles down when it is reported. 3.  Drama ensues. 4. Mapper deletes profile picture and/or ragequits.  5. Mapper slips back in when things quiet down. 6. Repeat. 


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#116 Jetrell

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:24 AM

 

The reason I don't like it is because we're essentially making warning labels telling people not to eat Tide Pods.  I think it insults the intelligence of the average person.  Not only that, but as soon as you try to lock down hard and fast rules, you inevitably create loopholes, grey areas, and unintended consequences.  So I'm not thrilled to be having these discussions.

I totally agree with you.

 

You're saying that you don't like the harm that this individual has done to this community. That's completely understandable but why then are you pursuing a path that will penalize this entire community for just one offender? These extreme measures seem unnecessary and overreaching for this one particular issue.

 

With respect, I think you may have lost some of your objectivity over this matter. We are just talking about one person here. I think you're throwing the baby out with the bath water.



#117 Judith

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 12:33 PM

These extreme measures seem unnecessary and overreaching for this one particular issue.

 

Nope.

 

We're here is because we have a mapper who continually eats Tide Pods, and the ensuing drama regularly spews up into the forums.


#118 Judith

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 09:03 AM

Let's greet the new year with another case that makes this discussion (and actions) necessary: http://forums.thedar...52016/?p=432281



#119 Melan

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 09:16 AM

This behaviour is not fucking acceptable, period. What the fuck.


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#120 Springheel

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 09:23 AM

when I found out about it and saw what he had done with my mission I was monumentally pissed.

 

 

Oh for fuck's sake.  How many more times does this have to happen?


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#121 STiFU

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 10:25 AM

Ok, what a wonderful start into the new year...

 

I guess, we have to do something now, as this keeps happening over and over again. I propose we instantiate the following rule:
"Whenever you want to start working on somebodyelse's map or reuse any content created by others, make a public announcement about your intentions and cite any relevant previous communication with other parties regarding this case. The announcement may happen in your own mapping thread or a new dedicated thread, but it should be visible to everybody."


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#122 Springheel

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 11:27 AM

I guess, we have to do something now, as this keeps happening over and over again.

 

 

The admins have discussed the issue and decided, with some regret, that there have been too many complaints about Bikerdude, too many mappers angry at him for inappropriate behaviour, to allow this to continue.  Bikerdude has asked us to ban him on multiple occasions, and today we have agreed to do so.


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#123 HMart

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 11:36 AM

Petty it came to that but I comprehend why it add to be done. :(



#124 STiFU

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:33 PM

Yes, it's a real shame it had to come to this. :-( 

 

Anyway, regardless of this, we should still write up this "TDM Editors Code" and pin it, in an effort to avoid situations like this in the future.


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#125 lowenz

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 04:16 PM

:|


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