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This is my first mission, and I think I reached a point where I really could use some feedback on what I'm doing, to see if it makes any sense. It's a small, easy mission, inspired by Thief's Den and The Bakery Job. I also need a bit of help fixing a few issues I'm stuck with.

I'll add one thing, which I didn't state earlier because I assumed it was obvious. But I'd like to make it clear. What is the purpose of dragging a body and body manipulation in this stealth game? In my opinion, it is a "tool" or "game mechanic" that gives the player the ability to do two things: The last 10%. After shouldering a body and dropping it in a desired location, the player can drag and hide it more precisely in the shadows. Is just a foot or hand sticking out into the light? No problem. Grab and drag it into the shadows. No need to shoulder and drop the entire body again. That's a good thing. Dragging gives fine-tuned control for that scenario. Nearby shadows. After KO-ing a guard near a dark area, the player can quickly drag the guard into the dark area. The distance here would be one or two body lengths away. Given that the distance is short, dragging is quicker than shouldering and dropping. That's a good thing. Dragging gives a quick way to hide a body in that scenario. In my opinion, the 2.12 controls enhance the experience for those two scenarios, because the controls give a quick way to grab a body, drag it into position, and release it quickly and precisely. However, most of the time that fine-tuned control is not necessary for this stealth game. Shouldering and dropping a body can work well enough, hence why it became the primary action. That said, being able to precisely drag a body is a great enhancement to just shouldering, and it's something players can learn and appreciate given time.

This was a fix in 2.11 beta, so it's included. I asume sound materials are included as well..

Yeah, I always found this ambiguous, the same as "uninstall mission", which could imply it will be removed from your computer. This is why I changed all similar appearances in my patch from "install/installed" to "activate/activated". I believe this is better than "selected" because you first need to select a mission in the list to be "activated" or "deactivated".

The sides of the lightgem are better, but then you need to have the same thing on either side or else it looks ugly. Maybe the thing at each side of the gem can refer to a specific mode, like left is crouching and right is running, but that might get a little too complicated... if not a posture symbol could be in the middle of the gem, it's not like it obstructs its visibility as there's plenty of surface area to tell the value from, but upon a quick edit for this idea I don't much like how it looks either.

It actually is possible to override single declarations without touching the core files. I just got it to work with a footstep sound replacement. At least I think so, I am not a hundred percent sure yet.

Since 2.10 or so FM defs will always override core defs if they both have the same name. FM files override core files of the same name and path.

Yeah, I know what you mean. For some reasons, the entity type atdm:moveable_custom_item does not work as intended and the only workaround is as per you description via approximation, but: if you use a key category instead of the moveable item, then it works with frobbing. @cvlw Clint, please answer my question in my previous post, then I will provide you with a setup for your to modify in your map.

yes please

I’m always in

I'll give it a spin.

Yeah sure, count me in.

Nice, dark shots. I'm in.

As someone who has been playing TDM since it went standalone all those years ago, I was skeptical about the new frob until I gave it a try to see how it's handled in 2.12. It's really intuitive. Yeah, old time players are used to the old frob + use mechanic, and there was nothing wrong or confusing about it IMO, but the new frob is so easy to get into there should be no problem for old-timers. So, from my perspective, it's a good change. It takes away nothing from the players and gives them an easy-to-get-into mechanic that is simple to use. If such a small, simple change brings in more players, even better.

After having trouble dragging the body where he wanted, the player said, "No. Noooo." (29:09) Player said, "I'm sorry. I'm not trying to look up there. It's just very awkward to drag bodies." (30:08) What I see is a player having trouble being stealthy while playing a stealth game, so this video just adds evidence in support of making shouldering the primary action over dragging. I never saw that he figured out how to shoulder a body. I think we are wanting to optimize for two different scenarios: One is to optimize for a stealth experience, and the other is to optimize for a "comical" experience. If I'm understanding you correctly, you have a strong fascination with body manipulation. Earlier in this thread, you stated: What you find as "comical", I see as the player suffering with the gameplay and struggling with the controls. Players have written their frustration with the pre-2.12 controls and stopped playing TDM all together. I've already seen players write about their interest in trying 2.12 based on the recent changes, which is huge. They're willing to give it another go, and that's great for our community. I am interested in watching playthrough videos and reading player experiences with the 2.12 version once released. Then, we'll be able to get more feedback about the 2.12 controls. Body manipulation is still available, and I find that it's even easier to do with the 2.12 controls. @STiFU commented something similar: @snatcher, given that body manipulation is so important to you, then I suggest creating a group and creating content about body manipulation. This could be similar to the groups that ghost or ironman the game. For example, Rule #1: Bodies must be dragged. Shouldering bodies is not allowed.

The graphical indicators is something for an artist to invent. The lightgem graphics has not been touched for ages, but maybe there is a way to add something without annoying everyone.

The below video illustrates some of the points I tried to make earlier. This new (or returning) player is experiencing TDM for a first time and I would say his mood and style perfectly fit the primary target audience of TDM. The player is unaware that shouldering bodies is a thing. See how it plays out. 1st situation - From 00:00 until 03:30 2nd situation - From 27:30 until whenever you want The player quickly figured out how to drag and manipulate (turn around) bodies and I detect no sign of frustration. The circumstances even lead to a couple of comical moments. Sooner or later this player will get to know about shouldering bodies and he will, as it couldn't be otherwise, prioritize shouldering. It all has been learned organically and the player can now switch tactics if desired. Now consider this same player was playing 2.12. I don't see any reason for this or any other player to ever getting to learn or appreciate body manipulation. 2.12 teaches players to move grain sacks out of the way, devoiding any sign of "humanity" from ragdolls. @stgatilov commented ragdoll manipulation is something like an engine show-off. Considering the amount of work that went into the feature I tend to believe the mechanic was seen as an opportunity and built as such. Let's for a moment travel to a parallel universe and pretend the developers decided shouldering bodies alone was the way to go, just like in Thief. How long would have gone by until someone wondered: wouldn't dragging bodies be cool and more realistic? I agree that shouldering bodies could be done with one (long or short) click. The problem I have with the final implementation is that the case was presented one-sided and there was no retrospective or interest in alternatives. We took a shortcut and as a result we missed half of what the journey offered. We didn't think big. Besides that above, players are now exposed to: Unintentionally shouldering bodies while trying to retrieve items from bodies Unintentionally un-shouldering bodies when trying to operate doors @Daft Mugi & friends set out to do this change and I have no problem with that, but I feel this whole topic is unbalanced. Some points have been hardly considered or discussed so excuse that I insist. If anything, this topic will make it for a good read for those coming next in a few years time

Since I got a request for it, here is a 2.12 beta 3 compliant version of the Fresnel Mod: https://www.moddb.com/mods/the-dark-mod/addons/fresnel-mod-212-beta-3/ Also, the Animated Grass Demo has been made 2.12 beta compliant: https://www.moddb.com/mods/the-dark-mod/addons/arcturuss-animated-grass-demo

The problems with the lightening texture has vanished, moreover, the camera screens work now perfectly, I had here and there strange results (glass texture not showing up, lights do not show up) in 2.11 and the previous beta. Thank you @stgatilov

Why have a poll at all if you want to include the non-voting population? I dont get what you're trying to say here

The trailer looks like a big nope. It's like a Gothic game, with all its bugs and quirks, that also wants to be Borderlands or Fallout 4. And in terms of art style it looks disjointed: Eurogamer review seem to confirm some of that: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-18-elex-review

Risen 1 definitely is more like Gothic. I also played it through 2 times now, the last time a couple of days ago. Risen 2 is different, but, I find the setting and gameplay very coherent. That pirate stuff fits nicely. I'll probably also play through Risen 3 when I'm finished with part 2. I never played that one through, after always failing at the oracle spider boss last time... By the way, looks like Piranha Bytes are in a lot of trouble, and will probably be closed down: https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/piranha-bytes-gothic-elex-schliessung,3406996.html Unfortunate, but, the whole game industry seems to be quite messed up these days.