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IIUC it is for the original trilogy. It might be technically possible to convert the assets for TDM use but, because TDM does not take place in the Thief universe, there'd be thorny copyright issues in doing that.

Thanks for the replies, gonna try those spoiler Tags again now for my short review (oh well it inserted one above my text now and I can't seem to delete it on mobile - this text editor is strange)

Just finished this mission and wow I gotta say in great honor to Grayman and of course the rest of the team picking it up, this was something I've never seen before in any other TDM mission, especially visually wise. I am so happy that grayson gave green light for other experienced mappers to finish his last mission. And what came out of this is really something special. I'll put my review in spoiler tags since I'm now referring to critical mission details. Edit - How do I put spoiler text here on mobile?? [spoiler] test [/spoiler][SPOILER] test [/SPOILER] [spoiler[spoiler [sfah

Copyright infraction IS a data theft issue. But don't get me wrong, this case of DN data is one thing, but once these are filtered, who is going to control if someone finds this data to use it for a different project of their own? It would be a problem and a crime if someone used this data to create an exact copy of DN and distributed it as their own. You mentioned TDM, yes it is based on the Thief series, but it would be a crime if I copied 1 by 1 the missions of this game. Even using a different engine and code, it would be a copyright infringement to appropriate content that is not only the programming part, but the intellectual property of the author of the storyline, which is certainly not the case. It is always a balancing act if a game is developed, in this case an FPS that from different companies can even use the same engine and therefore a similar basic programming regarding moving the protagonist, AIs, etc, but that are different in the development of the story, graphics, environment, etc, is where the intellectual property mainly resides. For example I have seen several Star Wars Fallen Order trailers and the resemblance to many aspects of Tomb Raider was invariably striking, naturally not because of the setting and story, but because of the challenges and form of the game. As I said, it is a complicated issue to clearly determine what is a problem of copyright infringement, data theft or plagiarism, as one always wants to call it.

Copyright expired after 70 years, which at least in informatik don't make sense. If the Duke Nukem build was leaked, it's a copyright infringement by the guy who leaked it. If the script is now in the network, it can't be avoided that someone use it to fork a own Game with it. Most games are made this way, because also big companies use third party game ideas or scripts to make its own with it, even using invers engineering. Most old shooters and also new ones are very similar, only different in the storyline and graphics used, all they are descendient of Pacman in last instance as original idea. In the Manga games, even the protagonists have the same aspects, even there are different companies. This copyright thing is very debatable in many cases, especially in old games that don't even work on modern computers without having to use some kind of emulator, DOS Box, etc. and whose companies often don't even exist anymore

Good work! I enjoy short missions because things are nice and focused - you get in, you get out. Also I tend to do better with the loot amounts and I was able to get all the loot without too much trouble, which is rare for me. If I were to make a suggestion though - I found the intro briefing sequence a bit distracting because it was so obvious the narration was pitch-shifted to make a deeper voice. If you felt the original voice wasn't deep enough for your needs, I would either get someone on the forums to record it for you or just leave as is. That's my only real complaint and it's not even about the mission itself, so pretty good first start!

Okay, I had no idea, I have googled it up now and you are right, to my own surprise. Done, I´ve put some paragraphs which were previously not in spoiler tags into spoilers.

Thebigh is right. The pronunciation tripped me up too, but that is apparently how Leicester is pronounced. Also @TarhielI'm glad you are loving the FM but do you mind putting spoiler tags on your post please

I am pleased to announce the release of our new fan mission, The Hare in the Snare: Part 1 Mission type: City Missions + Inn/Tavern Description: People are being abducted off the streets and a Watch Captain requires the services of a thief to help him find out why. Download link (v1.0.2-release): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HYvM_u56wDB16uIlb7qgS_q3P24V69MO/view?usp=sharing Credits: Mapping and original characters: @Frost_Salamander Story, readables, custom models, voices and cinematics: @Kerry000 Menu title track produced and mixed by @JackFarmer with selected gigagooga sound samples Beta testers: @Cambridge Spy @Zerg Rush @Amadeus @Acolytesix @Lzocast @wesp5 @nbohr1more @Kerry000 @ate0ate @Wellingtoncrab @prjames Additional thanks: @Dragofer, @nbohr1moreand @peter_spyfor technical help @Springheel for the modules and tutorials @kingsalfor allowing @Kerry000to abuse his manbeast everyone else on Discord and the TDM forums who offered assistance Requirements and notes: This mission requires TDM 2.09. Earlier versions will probably work but you might see one or two missing models. You may experience some FPS drops in some areas with lower-end hardware. Mid-range and above should be fine. If you have issues, I highly recommend you use shadow maps instead of stencil (settings -> advanced -> shadows implementation). It makes a big difference. For 'Hard' and 'Expert' the light gem sensitivity has been increased by '1' (meaning easier for AI to detect you). Screenshots:

We will look at some of this stuff, but SPOILER tags, please!!!

I'd like to better understand what you want. The design of dragging bodies is to hold frob (key down) to drag and release frob (key up) to let go. That way it's impossible to walk away while unintentionally dragging a body. Plus, it's quick to grab and move several body limbs in rapid succession. This is thought to provide a better experience, especially for new players. Towards the beginning of this thread, I created a "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior" cvar. https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22198-feature-proposal-frob-to-use-world-item/&do=findComment&comment=487580 "tdm_frobhold_drag_body_behavior", default:"1" Which drag body behavior? 1 --- on frob key up, drop body (limb). 0 --- on second frob, drop body (limb), TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. That cvar was removed shortly afterwards, because it was said that it wasn't needed. With that cvar set to 0, a second frob would be required to let go of the body. Is that the behavior that you want? If so, I can add that cvar back. Also, I saw elsewhere that you want the ability to revert back to the old way. If you mean that all of the controls match TDM 2.11, that can be done with "tdm_frobhold_delay 0" and there will be a menu setting to disable it as well.

This may make sense in that the performance impact of the volumetric effect can scale with how much of the effect is filling the screen. We shipped with a “performance mode” but had to setup the entities by hand to do it (so it’s not perfect). If you change the LOD detail settings to “Low” or “Lowest” this will disable certain lights, particles and such that can be very heavy to render. You can try these settings and see if you notice an improvement. If not sending us some pictures of heavy areas (with spoiler tags please) will be helpful with tuning these “performance modes” in subsequent patches. Thanks for playing!

Hi, I need to know what the code is to use Spoiler Tags. I am using my tablet and I don't have the options to use anything, like spoiler tags, quote tags, text changes etc. Thanks

Not to be a nag, but I was thinking about the columns problem. If you go to the view source tab in the wiki article: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Fan_Missions_for_The_Dark_Mod&action=edit The raw table data is accessible directly: |- !align=left|{{TDM-FM|written|Written in Stone}} |Bikerdude, Amadeus, Dragofer |{{Forumlink|https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21265-written-in-stone-beta-210-only-20220128/}} |2022-01-28 |338 |Yes |Yes |CCC 22, Elixir |City Missions |Undead, Horror Themes |- Each pipe character represents one of the columns.

Terrific! The beta test thread is up: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22238-beta-testing-the-spider-and-the-finch/

It's only vaporware because you consider it vaporware. Who knows what the owner of the IP or the code is going to do with it, in future times. Most IP or copyright holder won't know what the future holds either. Anyway, it's proprietray code, and not open source, so, that's that really.

Comparing copyright laws to Islamic regimes is a bit of a stretch. I'm also not quite sure about your point. These laws are there for a good reason.

After a long time and a lot of delays, I'm extremely happy and relieved to announce the release date for my first map; Lords & Legacy, on Friday the 30th of August, 2013! Lords & Legacy v.2.1 Resume: Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/Lj8UJ#0 Notes: Build time: 2013/03/30 - 2013/08/30 To install, simply put the .pk4 file in your fm folder and install from the in-game mission menu. It is a large mission with optional objectives, so make sure to save often. The ropes in the beginning have a 'slick' surface, to simulate being 'slack lines'. They are difficult, but once you get a hang of the slide they can be fun. A couple of the large areas can be a bit rough on performance, and can be improved by adjusting the LOD slider in video options. A few of visportals open only when you get close. This is to keep the frames smooth inside the respective building, due to early inexperienced design. If you find any bugs which affect the gameplay experience, then you're very welcome to post them here, but please use the spoiler tags. Big thanks to 'Obsttorte', 'Springheel', 'Greyman', 'Bikerdude', 'Sotha' and rest of 'The Dark Mod Team'for all the help, guides and tricks. Also thanks to the other TDM users who provided fantastic support and feedback during the build. Thank you for beta-testing: 'Bikerdude', 'TylerVocal', 'Simplen00b', 'nbohr1more', 'Briareos H.' Special thanks to: 'Danus', 'Dsx' & 'Stanleh' for testing, help and support. v.2.0.1 changelog: Bugs: -The "Master Thief" challenge was impossible to do for a while, due to incorrect values. Fixed. -Getting seen by "The Killer" now also fails the "Ghost" challenge. -The 3 cardplaying guards no longer float mid air, as their chairs are now nailed to the floor. -Fixed the sound of the furnace continuing after the flames were extinguished. -Fixed weird glittering on the power cables around the map. -Fixed some moonlight popping in and out. -Fixed openable windows in Commons, clipping into the frame. -Fixed a book dropping through a desk. -Fixed visportals closing too close in Lancel's Tower, slight hit on performance though. -Added more monsterclip to Service Tower and Robert's Tower's entrance. -Improved a few vis_portals with func_portals. -Replaced curbs in Slums and Commons with some more detailed versions and changed textures. And a lot more little unecessary tweaks. Gameplay: -Added new challenge: (Jack White) - Do not knock-out anyone. -Reduced the amount of starting gear, depending on difficulty. -Added cubemaps to most windows on the map. -Redid most func_statics in Commmons Quarter to reduce tris and increase performance. Draw count is still somewhat high. -Removed all transparent windows as they didn't have actual gameplay value, just a performance drain in exchange for glitchy visuals. -Lancel's safe can no longer be picked. Find the key! -Added a couple minor cosmetic details in the sewers. -Moved a coinpurse from a wealthy commoner's sleeping butt to his nightside table. Also adjusted his furniture so thieves can better move around. -Changed sounds for several doors across the map. Once again, a big thanks to 'Bikerdude' for taking the time help out and locate room for improvement! v.2.0 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed various textures and surfaces and a few minor tweaks. -Tweaked some sounds to be in line with TDM 2.0 changes. -Fixed 2 certain AIs being too sensitive rather than drunk. (Thanks to AluminumHaste!) -Tweaked LOD on some objects, to prevent windows "popping" in and out. Gameplay: -Added more monsterclip to the towers, so the AI can now run up and down stairs. Only the stairs in the small tower has issues still. -Added more monsterclip in the city so the guards can follow you up all stairs. -Added a few minor details. -Windows in the city now dims sound, resulting in less aggro from guards and more convincing soundscape. -Reduced 'draw calls' in all the large areas, increasing performance. The map is still heavy at certain areas. Another big thanks to 'Bikerdude' and 'Greyman', for taking time out of their own schedules to help optimize the map's draw count and other significant adjustements! v.1.0.3 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed 4 black chairs in one of the towers -Fixed a floating painting -Fixed several clipping objects v.1.0.2 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed zfighting in the library's bookshelves -Fixed a black window in one of the towers -Fixed several typos in readables Gameplay: v.1.0.1 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed an issue with the main objectives not being in "sync". -Fixed console spam from a script Gameplay: -Adjusted required loot for each difficulty from "3000, 4000 and 5000" to "2500, 3500 and 4500".

Actually, Nvidia has had image models for generating photorealistic faces for years now. They have gotten better over the years. https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/generating-photorealistic-fake-celebrities-with-artificial-intelligence/ Applying 2D text-to-image algorithms to modern games seems unlikely, with the exception of making lots of textures and maybe 2D portraits for UI/character creation, but there are many other algorithms being worked on. Maybe a similar approach could be used to replace procedural generation techniques. Like making a cave/dungeon in Skyrim, or that thing Tels was working on a decade ago. Rather than making a raster image, it could make geometry, place textures, and design a whole city. Bring on the negative societal implications of bots invading art, I'm all for it. But one thing to watch out for is the copyright question. These image models can be trained on a superset of copyrighted images or a smaller focused subset (to mimic an artist's style) and produce images that could lead to novel legal questions and expensive copyright lawsuits. This is not a problem for people making memes and shitposting online, but it could be a massive problem for game developers, big or indie. Save a few bucks on art, get sued into oblivion. Maybe we'll see Business Software Alliance style shakedowns of game developers? "Where'd you get these sprites, EH?" Sounds like vozka has made some textures with it? These can be scaled up from small 512x512 sizes to higher resolution with a separate upscaling algorithm, that's what people have been doing to make stuff presentable along with touchups in Photoshop/GIMP. Whether the results are any good is another story, maybe vozka should post their results.

I agree with what you're saying. My biggest problem with this ethics debate is that there seems to be a lot of insincerity and moving the goalposts by people whose argument is simply "I don't like this" hidden behind various rationalizations. Like people claiming that Stable Diffusion is a collage machine or something comparable to photobashing. Or admitting that it's not the case but claiming that it can still reproduce images that were in its training dataset (therefore violating copyright), ignoring that the one study that showed this effect was done on an old unreleased version of Stable Diffusion which suffered from overtraining because certain images were present in 100+ copies in its dataset, and even in this special situation it took about 1.7 million attempts to create one duplicity, never reproducing it on any of the versions released for public use. I also dislike how they're attacking Stable Diffusion the most - the one tool that's actually free for everyone to use and that effectively democratizes the technology. Luddites at least did not protest against the machines themselves, but against not having the ownership of the machines and the right to use it for their own gain. They're just picking an easy target. I don't believe there's any current legal reason to restrict training on public data. But there are undoubtedly going to be legal battles because some people believe that the process of training a neural network is sufficiently different from an artist learning to imitate an existing style that it warrants new legal frameworks to be created. I can see their point to some degree. While the learning process in principle is kind of similar to how a real person learns, the efficiency at which it works is so different that will undoubtedly create significant changes in society, and significant changes in society might warrant new legislature even it seems unfair. The issue is I don't see a way to do such legislature that could be realistically implemented. Accepting reality, moving forward and trying to deal with the individual consequences seems like the least bad solution at this moment.

The whole point of this thread is that ChatGPT and related generative AI technologies have the potential to "change the game" of game making. If the TDM community seems dead to you, remember that is only because there are very few people in the world with the skill set or resources to make fan mission, or even to contribute productively to discussing them. A lot more people like stealth games than have the time or talent to make them, much less learn how to make them. If new technology can lower the threshold for them to participate or even create an entirely new population of participants, that could be revolutionary for us. But the first step of that process is recognizing what this new technology is, what it's capable of, and where it fits within the pre-existing human social/economic/legal ecosystem. How else are FM creators and potential creators to know whether it is worth investing their precious time investigating this tech and integrating it into their processes? Hence the discussion so far. Something that I don't think has been brought up about this is that if anyone wishes to publish works while forbidding their use for creating any sort of derivative work, there are legal mechanisms right now that allow you to do that: You just need to keep your work under lock and key and make every person you allow to see it sign a legally binding confidentiality and non-compete agreement. This is extra effort and will generally require you to make proportionate concessions to the other party to make the agreement both legally valid and economically enticing, but it can be done. In fact it is done. Frequently. What you can't do is nail your work to the church door for all to freely see, or give it to every merchant to sell on the open market, and then retroactively decide you want to reserve additional rights for yourself! Can you imagine if the world actually worked like that? I cannot imagine a more fertile ground for corporate oppression. Imagine if Disney had the right to ban anyone who had ever seen Snow White from ever working in animation! Imagine if Activision could ban anyone who had ever played a Call of Duty from developing a competing modern military shooter. The only angle to this argument I think has a shred of validity is that maybe we can and should hold industrial actors to different ethical and legal standards from actual human beings. However I don't think that finger in the dike would hold back the storm surge for very long. Crowd sourcing is a thing, and there are plenty of people who would be happy to donate their C/GPU time and internet connections for AI research. In terms of legal strategies against generative AI, the copyright angle is the weakest of sauces. Even if the courts are taken in by the fallacious claims of the plaintiffs (which would not surprise me), their rulings will be just as unenforceable in practice as the music and film industries' fruitless wars against piracy. Worse in fact, because with generative AI there could be an actual arms race between uncovering and concealing evidence of illegal copying.

Music copyright is a mess, hopefully the courts don't draw inspiration from those cases.

The copyright angle is going to be decided by the courts. But if you can't prove that some AI output actually remixed your work, you have no claim. Even where you can, it will be pointed out that "style" is not copyrightable and humans also use references. Then there are some legal precedents like Google Book Search and TurnItIn that could be favorable to Stability AI in its big lawsuit. When you see the cobblestones Arcturus generated above, is it possible to trace any specific infringement, other than the image used as input? Doesn't seem like it would be.

One angle no one has presented in this discussion yet, is copyright. I mean it sucks ass and is probably unconstitutional in it's current perpetual form where someone across the world can break your stuff after taking your money. But that is beside the point; the way these AI routines operate, is by creating derivative works from someone else's work. Well it's not *quite* the same thing, because it takes little snippets from everyone and mish-mashes them together into something new. Or put a different way, if I was a skilled mapper, I'm not sure how happy I would be about sections of my work winding up in another "machine-generated" map comprised of work of other humans without my permission or giving proper credit. I guess this opens Pandora's box to the idea that humanity could achieve more if everyone worked together, which is something that I don't actually disagree with. I however also don't think humanity would cease to create new things if machines began rampantly "sampling and remixing" all of our output, because creativity and sharing is just part of human nature.

Welcome to the Dark Mod forums MarsManon! Thank you very much for the kind words about SLL, it's always nice to hear We all worked real hard on bringing Grayman's map to life and I'm glad you enjoyed it