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I get that and full disclosure: I did not read the full thread, it's just too much! I was absent in recent months, so I missed all of this. That makes a lot of sense. Although, to solve this, one could communicate via audio cue ("uh uh") that no use-type-interaction is available for that entity. Anyway, there is an incredibly easy way to solve the inconsistency while staying true to the original control scheme and that is to simply swap shouldering and grabber. Entity type Short Press Long Press ...Release Button Junk Grabber Nothing Nothing Food Grabber Eat Nothing Loot Pick-up Nothing Nothing Bodies Grabber Shoulder Nothing Lights Grabber Exstinguish Nothing Tools Inventory Nothing Nothing This way, every interaction that was originally "frob + use" (shouldering, eat, exstinguish) will the become long-press-frob. So, the long-press simply becomes a shorthand for special action, nice and clean. While I do love the hold-type-grabber to death, I'd be willing to sacrifice it for a consistent control-scheme. (@stgatilov @Daft Mugi) Right now, we have this weird mixture of hold-type- and toggle-type-grabber that I guarantee you, will confuse new players (and streamers). I say, either fully embrace the lovely new hold-type-grabber (which I am still all for) or drop it completely.

Again, this could be fixed by reversing short frob and long frob for bodies. Is it really that much of a problem to hold frob 200 ms longer to shoulder a body?

It is quite litigated in the thread already whether it is particularly important or common in games for a context sensitive input be "consistent" or whether this inherently means something is intuitive - so I won't repeat my thoughts on it. I will say It seemed like it was quite difficult to get this change as it is into the game, so while I think anything can be improved I am not sure anyone wants to go through another 10 pages, polls, etc. So I hope I don’t sound short or dismissive, it’s really not my intention, it’s just been a very long thread. I will say if an object is frob highlighted, ie subject to an interaction prompt, if frobbing it then does not do anything or provide any feedback the game immediately feels very strange and broken. I do not think it is good a idea to have objects which can only be interacted with via long press. The current design is around primary interactions being on short press and the secondary more situational actions being on hold, while also retaining compatibility with all legacy interactions. There is some disagreement as far as what is a "primary" interaction, but I find it pretty intuitive in practice as it is today. There are some exceptions that did not work out in testing. I will the example of candles/lanterns - having extinguish as the primary interaction makes a lot of sense, but in practice didn't work very well. The game is full of extinguished candles, empty candle holders, etc that are now simple physics objects that require a long press to pickup and have no primary interaction - see issue above. You also have to handle lanterns differently, which can be toggled off/on. You could code in the TDS method which is extinguish a lit candle on frob, then it becomes a physics object (“junk” in the parlance of your table) so the primary interaction should then be grabber. There seemed in general to be a lot of concern about keeping the code clean. Being able to grab moveable inventory objects on hold without having to do the current dance of bringing them into inventory first and then “dropping” them - like keys and tools - could be a nice addition. Many loot objects are not moveables so these might be a bit of issue?

I like that we can extinguish candles and light on/off lanterns with a long frob. A lot. It feels very natural. Congratulations for the idea and execution. From an usability point of view I disagree with the default 200ms but since members here are confident players will always get the desired result consider me and oddball. Thanks for having provided a cvar for me to change the timing. I don't like the fact that the toying with bodies or body limbs mechanic has been rendered unusable. People that don't use this mechanic to its full extent won't understand the reasons: take a limb and painfully carry the body to another room, hide a body carefully in the most peculiar place and position, recreate a crime or comic scene... Only TDM provides this fun, for those seeking it. The potential of the mechanic is gone for both existing and new players: too much long frob / key press to bother. Don't try to convince me of the opposite. Please make a cvar for snatcher to shoulder and unshoulder bodies on long frob, just like with candles. This is, in my opinion, the wisest of the solutions. Many thanks in advance.

We didn't make the holidays (such a busy time of year) so here's a New Year's gift, an unusual little mission. Window of Opportunity Recover an item for a regretful trader out in a wilderness setting, and discover more! Available within the in-game mission downloader or: Download: http://www.thedarkmo...ndetails/?id=79 Alternative: https://drive.google...WTMzQXZtMVFBSG8 Some unorthodox gameplay on regular/ghost difficulties. (Arachnophobes might prefer short mode...) Please expect to need your lantern in regular and ghost modes! Short ("easy") mode is a smaller map, so if you are looking for areas others reference below, or 100% of the loot, you'll need to play on another mode. I wanted to create my first mission before I became influenced by too many others' ideas, and limited myself to what has been done before. As such, this mission is not set in a city/town, and has some features that are likely to be provocative. There's a section some really like, which others don't, either way I kept it short to not last too long. That being said, I hope you do find it fun! :-) Special thanks to those who provided valuable testing and feedback: Goldwell, Kyyrma, plotzzz, 161803398874989, PPoe & Bikerdude (who also contributed a sound). (Please remember spoiler tags to not expose things meant to be discovered by playing.) Like so: [spoiler]secrets[/spoiler] If you are having trouble finding the main objective, here's what to pay attention to in the mission for hints: There is a spot it's possible to get stuck on the ground in the corner by the cliff/rockfall where there's a rope laying on the ground, please take care if you poke around there!

Another reason for long-press frob for special action: 2.11 already has one, multiloot. Quick-press frob to loot. Long-press frob to multiloot.

I like your idea, but I have not bound Frob to the mouse, so you mean single frob vs double frob, yes?

So what happens if you frob something while carrying a body? Isn't the body dropped then and the solution suggested to avoid this was to only do the shouldering/unshouldering with long frob? What if I want to take a key or something else from a body and accidentally frob the body itself? It will be shouldered at once which I don't think is the optimal solution.

This pinned thread's purpose is to collect links to all the discussion threads for new features to be added in 2.12: [2.12] Multi-addons support [2.12] Auto-search bodies [2.12] Turrets Allow mantling while carrying a body New lean for 2.12 Frob to use world items [2.12] Viewpos on player HUD and screenshots English Subtitles for AI Barks Subtitle Enhancements [2.12] Improved Interaction Culling and a related bug report thread HERE As well as older feature collection threads: [2.10] Feature discussion threads [2.11] Feature discussion threads

Beta 11 Fix finished-on state auto-update was unreliable Slighty improve scanner title/author detect Tags are now named some whatever regular-version-looking thing to force GitHub to put the newest at the top

I guess it is time to decide: either we can rely on frob outline always enabled, if we should drop the idea and think about refactoring the old material-based system. We need public opinion on this matter. There are three presets right now, and each preset gets a separate vote independently. Comparing presets against each other is not the main goal of this poll, so please do not decrease/increase some votes only because your like another preset more/less. Before voting, please make sure that: You have the latest dev build installed (e.g. previous dev build had a problem with bloom, which is fixed in the latest one). You have played a fair amount of time with each of the outlines enabled. Don't judge by screenshots or after merely enabling it for a minute on a test map. UPDATE: In order enable preset 1, open game console and execute "r_frobOutlinePreset 1". You should see a very thin but very bright outline around frobbed objects then. To enable preset 2, execute "r_frobOutlinePreset 2" (this one should be wider and softer), and the same for preset 3 (which is the widest one).

What happens if you frob something while carrying a body? Will the body be dropped at the same time? If so I suggest to go with that chakkman wrote and revert the setup: short frob pulls a body and extinguishes a light and long frob takes the body and the light and also drops both while short frobing works on everything else at the same time.

I did play Thief and FMs, but I don't play it any more, except for major things like Black Parade. The clunky movement and antiquated Dromed editor is what discouraged me from interacting with it over the years. I regularly play and sometimes make content for TDM, because it has much better movement model than Thief. I know that most missions don't use it well, but if you construct your geometry (gaps, ledges, distances) using power of two measurements, movement and mantling feels fast and snappy. There's no need for regression in that regard, in my opinion, there's a need for assets and missions made with the movement model in mind, to showcase its strengths properly. Even if TDM originally intended to "simulate the stealth gameplay of Thief, many things will be familiar to veteran Thief players" the actual mod history was a bit different. The team came up with a mission platform that has its own identity when it comes to mechanics. The way assets were made might have been a huge mistake, but that didn't prevent the platform from growing. Since you like anecdotal evidence, noone other Skacky once said that TDM movement model was super clunky, after playing The Painter's Wife. It was really hard to convince him that if a mapper places geometry this poorly, and isn't aware what spatial measurements play to the strengths of a movement model, no movement model will save his mission. And there is no fixing of this problem on the engine side, although it's not the first time when TDM team tries to address the asset problem with engine changes, which I suspect will ultimately lead to even more problems down the line. In game development, things like core mechanics and player tools are locked-down first, in one of the pre-production phases, because all the levels will be constructed around them. Making changes in core mechanics in a project this mature is very risky, I assume you don't plan on going through all playable spaces in all released TDM FMs to check for errors. Instead of making incremental changes in fundamental mechanics, I'd encourage you to create a fork, or some kind of major version bump candidate, like 3.0, where all things could be revamped: movement, player tools, UI, new frob mechanics, perhaps with UI contextual icons, new training map to incorporate all that, etc. Once all new elements fall into place and create something new, with a map or maps to back it up as relevant changes, it will be easier to convince existing player/author base that it was worth it. I assume the existing fanbase is already fragmented, as a result of all those heated discussions around the topic. But with multiple versions available for download, the transition to hypothetical "TDM 3.0" should be easier. It could be similar to UE2 and UE3, and you could also use this as an occasion to draw the line for backwards compatibility. I know there are old systems and variables kept in place just in order not to break existing missions. This way you could e.g. redo the LOD system, implement lights using math functions instead of textures, etc.

No, I remembered the old system, but I also was using my patch so I suspected at first I messed something up before I remembered that the handling of bodies and lights are so counter intuitive right now. I could easily add my own patch solution to make extinguishing lights short frob again, but I would rather see a consistent version of it in the core game! To provide some background information, I had just finished both the Cyberpunk DLC and The Outer Worlds DLCs, both of which use short-use and long-use systems too so my mindset somehow was expecting something more consistent ;).

Must say: I like the new hold-to-frob system. A bit confusing at first but far more intuitive and welcoming once you learn it. When I noticed normal frobbing keeps picking up bodies instead of dragging them I thought the FM overrode the behavior with a script, then I remembered this change being mentioned. However I believe I also found a bug that was surely introduced by it: You can now pick up and mantle the bodies of dead mice. Picking them up normally like a physical object makes sense, but now you mantle them with both hands and can't use anything else as if carrying a human AI's body... pretty sure the player could just put a dead mouse in their pocket it's not that large and heavy On my map I just placed an atdm:env_ragdoll_rat somewhere and happened to frob it: With the new default (normal delay) it triggered the mantling I'm describing on single click.

There's a bug I've been noticing for a long time, but for some reason it didn't click with me to mention it till someone else just mentioned seeing the same thing and I realized I'm not the only one. The contents of some chests and small containers like drawers will sometimes not become frobable when you open that container: You may need to close the door and open it again, after which you can frob any scrolls / keys / etc inside. Most likely something is happening with target_setfrobable getting triggered at the wrong time. Even when they are frobable, tiny items in small containers will sometimes only highlight from a very specific position and angle: I've had cases where I needed to lean forward and look at a coin just right and it would only highlight when my crosshair was on that one pixel. I'm sorry I didn't think to note down a FM and viewpos where to test it; If you need I'll keep that mind for when I play the next one. This doesn't happen a lot any might be hard to catch, but often enough as to be noticeable... in most recent FM's it seems to occur at least once in some drawer or lockbox.

It's enabled by default in 2.12. Most players will keep it, I guess. On second thought I think we better not. The text on frob servers three purposes: Get to know the name of AI (if any) without the need of shouldering. Get to know the status (KO/Dead) of AI without the need of shouldering. Get to know if something is in the grabber, but this is minor, and it could only be considered a feature if all objects had a proper name. The player triggers the text with his/her actions. If we do it on highlight then it is us who is triggering it, and the player may or may not want it displayed at that moment. Back on topic, Yeah, this is something I noticed too. I like this idea very much. I think it could work. Also, a new arg for mappers: on_death_tongue_out.

I believe TDM takes a minimalistic approach to he HUD, which I think is a good idea since we prefer realism and focusing on the environment rather than having icons and indicators everywhere. Something like modifying the frob helper crosshair when looking at a body could work though, eg: Empty circle when AI is dead or the normal white dot when alive. It works that way by default yeah, it's what I was referring to: If you pick up a body the text confirms it, will say "person" or "person's body" accordingly. It does require picking up and moving the AI: A solution might be the text appearing just by highlighting the body, still relies on the HUD confirming it but that would be like checking the AI's pulse so it works.

You can look at the andersarken mask pedestal in an attic in The Painter's Wife. It has multiple ways of placing the mask on the pedestal: - Use the mask on the pedestal - Frob the pedestal while the mask is selected - Possibly also holding the mask near the pedestal (this is based on stim/response). Might not be implemented in this example, though. Seeking Lady Leicester also has similar setups wherever you can use the torc.

Approach the body and frob it, available in the TDM Modpack & the Unofficial Patch for some time now. (Not really useful in 2.12 with default settings)

I would rather have an icon show the status of the body when it is frob-highlighted. So a skull icon or an healthy face with closed eyes icon, for example.

One clearly defined entity that can only be used with frob on another clearly defined entity?

I think that was directed at me, as I usually argue for the new control scheme (albeit with some modifications). I liked that post because it contained some valid points of criticism: Especially the first point frequently happened to me. Yes, the new frob-to-loot feature is there to help, but I still sometimes accidentally shouldered a body.