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  1. The fisheries have had a bad year. Unemployed roam the streets and crowd the pubs. The merchants sleep with one eye open and keep a tight grip on their property amid the unrest. A thief, even a skilled thief like myself, has a hard time finding good, worthwhile work. I began looking for more... unusual tasks. I set my eyes on Thornton Hall, remote and cut off from the outside world. These outlying manors are difficult to find, let alone reach, but they're bound to hold precious trinkets and family heirlooms untouched by anyone. Not few are said to be haunted by one dreadful apparition or another. But it's common for the lords themselves to spread these rumours, to keep unwanted visitors away. This mission is in two parts. Once youre done with the first, on to the next. Download Dropbox- river3In-game downloaderClick continue at the bottom of the login screen if you use the Dropbox link but don't have a login, then place the mission archive in the fms folder of your Dark Mod installation. Changelog, v3, December 14th, 2016: Changelog, v2.5, November 23rd, 2016: Changelog, v2, October 27th, 2016: Notes In response to a question about the relation of this mission to One Step Too Far: This mission started its life as a standalone mission for a Halloween contest, so it takes place in a different setting and begins with its own story. There is, however, a strong link thatll become apparent during the mission. From a mapping perspective it contains areas and ideas that I had originally intended for Of Brambles and Thorns, which is the bonafide sequel, but realised that they wouldn't have space there anymore. So this could be described as being neither sequel nor prequel, but certainly a part of the series that began with One Step Too Far. Solutions Part 1 Part 2 Credits - Inspiration, Story: The Terrible Old Man by H.P. Lovecraft, a short story which leaves much to the imagination. - Inspiration, Setting: Right Up There in the Mountains by Troutpack, a fan mission for Thief 2 which left its mark. - Betatesters Round 1: Abusimplea, ankai, Ryan101, Oldjim, bikerdude - Betatesters Round 2: nbohr1more, bikerdude, crowbars82, jaxa, dunedain19 - Custom voice work: AndrosTheOxen, bikerdude, Goldwell - Custom models: Atheran, epifire, Dragofer - Custom paintings: Airship Ballet - Custom AI path setup: Sotha - Custom ambient tracks: gigagooga, spady, bottle_rocket_fx, dobroide, Dragofer, augustsandberg, bosk1, 01sound - Custom sound effects: kyyrma, cgeffex, speedenza, cabro, joelaudio, robinhood76, klankbeeld, benjaminharveydesign, vate - Bikerdude for not allowing me to stray from the highest standards and perfing troublesome spots - John Atkinson Grimshaw, Ivan Aivazovsyk and William Bradford for paintings used in the briefings and loading screens
  2. Hi Everyone I am trying to sort out my fms collection is there any place where i can find list of all contest and its participants ??
  3. Yeah, I guess I didn't consider making a new entity for future mappers to implement in their future maps when I responded to you (sorry!), but that is not a bad idea. The changes should be done in a way where it wouldn't affect older FMs, and it would be a fair chunk of work. I actually have a few breakable lights in my WIP, although they are kinda glitchy and far from perfect.
  4. This kind of mechanic would break a ton of existing FMs. Some (I dare say even most) mappers often choose electric lamps so that they can't be extinguished or turned off, forcing the player to time their movements through the light. There are of course switchable electric lights, but that is up to the author on how they want to implement those. It would definitely be fun to see an FM implement this Splinter Cell-style mechanic, where the mapper has designed their map to function in such a way, but to add this as a core feature would break the gameplay of countless maps
  5. TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/

     

  6. Is it always like that ? You ask question. Second later You are finding answer to it, sorry for mess on forum BTW I am very confused about fm versions. In mission download section for example version is v4 and inside pk4 readme file version 1.1. In download section link to mission forum site would be also very helpful I have downloaded fms from Dark Mod and ModDB some of them are of course doubled so i try to compare them it would be very helpful to keep correct version in description so evreyone can keep track of it, and yes i know dark mod updates them but i like to have offline archive.
  7. Ah, pity I wasn't reading the forums back in February. I'm fond of that game, along with Bugbear's other early title, Rally Trophy. I was never too good at FlatOut, but it was always a hoot to play.
  8. When talking about a possible libre version of TDM (https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22346-libre-version-of-tdm/) it seems we believe all media/gamedata included in TDM is licensed CC-BY-NC-SA. I am not familiar with how the process of adding new media/gamedata works today; I have seen files uploaded to the bugtracker which developers then commit to SVN, but I don't know if there are other ways. It may be a good idea to implement a process that when new components (media/gamedata included in TDM) are added, the contributor is asked to be explicit about the license (a choice which may defaults to their previous preference, for usability). It won't fix the past, but it may help in the future. This will make it easy for contributors to add future data under a more permissive license if they choose. Libre media can be added and its license can be tracked, rather than assumed to be CC-BY-NC-SA. I suggest looking at how Wikimedia Commons has implemented this: the contributor state the source and license at the time the data is uploaded. This can be done either by providing urls or by saying "It's my work and I choose this licsense". The first step could be to add a way to keep track of each filepath in SVN, author, license, sources. Start by setting the value for each file's license to "(default/legacy CC-BY-NC-SA)". Possible implementations for a user interface for new additions are: * Use our own wiki, which runs Mediawiki (same as Wikimedia Commons). I see several benefits of this, but we also need a way to accept uploads of batches, not just single files. * Look at how other open source projects have solved this. There may be more appropriate solutions available. ... but I'll leave the implementation open. Suggestions are very welcome! If the author of each file already in SVN can be tracked, then it may be possible that the author is willing to give a blanket permission for all their past files in one statement, and all their files in SVN can be updated in one commit. A productive contributor willing to release some of their work under a more permissive license could make a big change. If Dark Radiant would support letting mappers search media/gamedata by license (does it already?), it would make it easier for mappers to create a completely libre mission, which would help facilitate a TDM-libre release. If I understand things correctly. This post does not address all details and it may contain misunderstandings or assumptions, but it's a start. Also relevant: * Is there a compiled and maintained list of recommended or deprecated resources for mappers to use? * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20311-external-art-assets-licensing/
  9. In principle I like the idea of community campaign building. But the official campaign itself never really captured my imagination, not to mention it'd be hard for people to have an idea of where it's going, much less making it cohere. I scripted a Dark Mod campaign meant to introduce the districts, factions, and lore that does capture my imagination. But I'm not in any real position to ask people to build for it, and also there's still the problem that people may have different visions for it that may not cohere well. As for the "connecting mission", that might be interesting... But I'd reframe it a little, not that it has to be connecting per se, but you know, a hero or even another character from some FM in an adjacent setting alongside (or before or after) an existing FM, kind of like what Rozencranz and Guildenstern did for Hamlet, if you know about that. I think it's better to have it more open ended how an author wants to build off an existing FM than only connecting two FMs per se. That might be a really interesting theme to see play out.
  10. I think it's ok to include shadow maps features as long as fms don't become depended on it. Meaning you can't play it properly with stencil shadows enabled.
  11. "AI Speech Synthesis for FMs" by u/that1sluttycelebrity
  12. Only Thief 2 has that feature, but it can be enabled via scripting on Thief 1 and Thief 1 FMs. Personally, if I want the notifications, I add it to a Thief 1 FM after checking that it doesn't have objective-complete notifications. Otherwise, you might get double notifications. dbmods/objective-notify.dml DML1 #script "squirrel" // Enable objective-complete notifications ObjProp -2099 "Scripts" { "Script 3" VictoryCheckAux } To enable them on Between These Dark Walls, add the above file as "thief/FMs/darkwalls/dbmods/objective_notify.dml". The mission needs to be restarted from the beginning for the DML to take effect. By default, TFix (Full, not Lite) installs it globally for Thief 1 and Thief 1 FMs in the "thief/OSM/gamesys.dml" file. I don't recommend that, because it can conflict with FMs. EDIT I forgot to include the requirement of the "sq_scripts/victory.nut" script, which comes with TFix (Full, not Lite). So, either the "victory.nut" file needs to be put the FM's "sq_scripts" directory, or it needs to be included in the global script path, such as "thief/OSM/sq_scripts/victory.nut".
  13. I've been having this issue in my own fms, where the first time I enter a new area, the ambient sound will start out loud for a second, and then go down to the intended volume, instead of transitioning properly. This only seems to happen in my own fms, so maybe it's some setting I overlooked. I made a small test map: test_area_sounds.map There are three areas in the test map. The second area has an ambient volume of -17 db, while the others have 0 db. The problem is noticeable to me right when the map loads and the first ambient starts playing, but it's even more noticeable when crossing to the second area, where the sound starts loud, and then goes way down and stays there. After I've entered all areas for the first time, then all is good, the sounds transition fine. As in, the volume goes down and then up to reveal the new ambient sound.
  14. Let's re-do this. Story always has the preference, even if the player is or goes far away from the source. The moment a story line is triggered the whole set is displayed in sequence not matter what (subs keep their slots). If there are no slots available, a bark goes away. If more than three story subtitle require a slot, then we are f***d the oldest story sub goes away. Non-story subs cannot be displayed if the player was far away when they started: we cannot have subs popping in and out of existence in a split sec. However, the moment a sub makes it in because the player was nearby the source, it stays, even if the player goes away. If we miss some non-story subs in the queue because ongoing subs didn't end yet, so be it. Non-story subs must have a way shorter distance than story subs.
  15. Whoopsie @MirceaKitsune First thoughts: The moment a sub makes it in, it stays. We cannot have subs popping in and out of existence in a split sec. If we miss some in the queue, so be it. Non-story subs must have a way shorter distance over story subs. Story must prevail. If there ever is a need for a slot, a non-story sub gives place to story (this is the only exception to point one).
  16. Complaint From Players The player must pick up candles before extinguishing them, and then the player must remember to drop the candle. The player must drag a body before shouldering it (picking it up), and the player must remember to frob again to stop dragging the body. The player finds this annoying or easy to make mistakes. For players who ghost, some of them have the goal of returning objects back to their original positions. With the current "pick up, use item, and drop" system, the item might not return easily or at all to its original position. For example, a candlestick might bounce off its holder. (See player quotes at the bottom.) Bug Tracker https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6316 Problems to Solve How can the "pick up" step be eliminated so that the player can directly use or interact with the item where it is in the game world? How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking be eliminated when the player wants to directly use an item? How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up? How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them? Solution Design Goals Make TDM easier for new players while also improving it for longtime players. Reduce tedious steps for common frob interactions. Make it intuitive so that menu settings are unnecessary. Do not introduce bugs or break the game. Terms frob -- the frob button action happens instantly. hold frob -- the frob button is held for 200ms before the action happens. (This can be changed via cvar: 200ms by default.) Proposed Solution Note: Some issues have been struckthrough to show changes since the patch has been updated. Change how frobbing works for bodies, candles, and lanterns. For bodies: Frob to shoulder (pick up) a body. Second frob to drop shouldered body, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc. Hold frob (key down) to start drag, continue to hold frob (key down) to drag body, and then release frob (key up) to stop dragging body. Also, a body can be dragged immediately by holding frob and moving the mouse. For candles/lanterns: Frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns. Hold frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop. Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop. Hold frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns. For food: Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop. Hold frob to eat food. For other items: No change. New cvar "tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"200" The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or extinguish. Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Solution Benefits Bodies: New players will have less to learn to get started moving knocked out guards. With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players have played several missions before realizing that they could shoulder a body instead of dragging it long distances. Frob to shoulder body matches Thief, so longtime Thief players will find it familiar. Second frob drops a shouldered body. Players still have the ability to both shoulder and drag bodies. Compatible with the new auto-search bodies feature. Dragging feels more natural -- just grab, hold, and drop with a single button press. There is no longer the need to press the button twice. Also, it's no longer possible to walk away from a body while unintentionally dragging it. Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Candles: New players will have less to learn to get started extinguishing candles. With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players didn't know they could extinguish candles by picking them up and using them. Instead, they resorted to throwing them to extinguish them or hiding them. Hold frob to extinguish a candle feels like "pinching" it out. Once a candle is picked up, players still have the ability to manipulate and use them the same way they are used to in TDM v2.11 and earlier. For players who ghost and have the goal of putting objects back to their original positions, they'll have an easier time and not have to deal with candles popping off their holders when trying to place them back carefully. Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior. Solution Issues Bodies: Frob does not drop a shouldered body, so that might be unexpected for new players. This is also different than Thief where a second frob will drop a body. "Use Inv. Item" or "Drop Inv. Item" drops the body. This is the same as TDM v2.11 and earlier. This is the price to pay for being able to frob (open/close) doors while shouldering a body. Patch was updated to drop body on second frob, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc. Candles: Picking up a candle or lantern requires a slight delay, because the player must hold the frob button. The player might unintentionally extinguish a candle while moving it if they hold down frob. The player will need to learn that holding frob will extinguish the candle. The player can change the delay period via the "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar. Also, when the cvar is set to a delay of 0, the behavior matches TDM v2.11 and earlier, meaning the player would have to first "Frob/Interact" to pick up the candle and then press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish it. Some players might unintentionally extinguish a candle when they are trying to move it or pick it up. They need to make sure to hold frob to initiate moving the candle. When a candle is unlit, it will highlight but do nothing on frob. That might confuse players. However, the player will likely learn after extinguishing several candles that an unlit candle still highlights. It makes sense that an already-extinguished candle cannot be extinguished on frob. The official "Training Mission" might need to have its instructions updated to correctly guide the player through candle manipulation training. Updating the training mission to include the hold frob to extinguish would probably be helpful. Similar Solutions In Fallout 4, frob uses an item and long-press frob picks it up. Goldwell's mission, "Accountant 2: New In Town", has candles that extinguish on frob without the need of picking them up first. Snatcher's TDM Modpack includes a "Blow / Ignite" item that allows the player to blow out candles Wesp5's Unofficial Patch provides a way to directly extinguish movable candles by frobbing. Demonstration Videos Note: The last two videos don't quite demonstrate the latest patch anymore. But the gist is the same. This feature proposal is best experienced in game, but some demonstration videos are better than nothing. The following videos show either a clear improvement or that the player is not slowed down with the change in controls. For example, "long-press" sounds long, but it really isn't. Video: Body Shouldering and Dragging The purpose of this video is to show that frob to shoulder a body is fast and long-press frob to drag a body is fast enough and accurate. Video: Long-Press Frob to Pick Up Candle The purpose of this video is to show how the long-press frob to pick up a candle isn't really much slower than regular frob. Video: Frob to Extinguish The purpose of this video -- if a bit contrived -- is to show the efficiency and precision of this proposed feature. The task in the video was for the player to as quickly and accurately as possible extinguish candles and put them back in their original positions. On the left, TDM v2.11 is shown. The player has to highlight each candle, press "Frob/Interact" to pick up, press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish, make sure the candle is back in place, and finally press "Frob/Interact" to drop the candle. The result shows mistakes and candles getting misplaced. On the right, the proposed feature is shown. The player frobs to extinguish the candles. The result shows no mistakes and candles are kept in their original positions. Special Thanks @Wellingtoncrab was instrumental in improving this feature during its early stages. We had many discussions covering varying scenarios, pros, and cons, and how it would affect the gameplay and player experience. Originally, I had a completely different solution that added a special "use modifier" keybinding. He suggested the frob to use and long-press frob to pick up mechanics. I coded it up, gave it a try, and found it to be too good. Without his feedback and patience, this feature wouldn't be as good as it is. Thank you, @Wellingtoncrab! And, of note, @Wellingtoncrab hasn't been able to try it in game yet, because I'm using Linux and can't compile a Windows build for him. So, if this feature isn't good, that's my fault. Code Patch I'll post the code patch in another post below this one so that folks who compile TDM themselves can give this proposal a try in game. And, if you do, I look forward to your feedback! Player Complaints TTLG (2023-01-10) Player 1: TDM Forums (2021-03-13) Player 2: Player 3: TDM Forums (2023-06-17) Player 4: TDM Discord (2021-05-18) Player 5: TDM Discord (2023-02-14) Player 6: Player 7: Player 8:
  17. Assets in FMs always overwrite assets in the TDM installation, regardless of whether either of the files are within or outside a .pk4.
  18. See it as a first step for you to get familiar with the process. You can present the Patch as: fms z_unofficial_patch_wesp5.pk4 tdmup-logo.jpg tdmup-readme.txt Yes, incompatibilities remain but at least players can give the Patch a try without marrying it too much. Alphabetically. Last pk4 wins. It's the same raw or in pk4.
  19. Yes. It's a case by case exercise. We have the tools and we have the knowledge. We just need the will to do it. A pk4 is just a zip with a pk4 extension. If you pack the Unofficial Patch (except the "fms" folder) players can easily install it and remove it. Give it a try, pack it and give it a name, in example: z_unofficial_patch_wesp5.pk4 Test it.
  20. @snatcher I understand that when you feel your work doesn't live up to your goals that you don't want it out in the wild advertising your own perceived shortcomings but that leads to a troubling dilemma of authors who are never satisfied with their work offering fleeting access to their in-progress designs then rescinding them or allowing them to be lost. When I was a member of Doom3world forums, I would often see members do interesting experiments and sometimes that work would languish until someone new would examine it and pickup the torch. This seemed like a perfectly viable system until Doom3world was killed by spambots and countless projects and conceptual works were lost. I guess what I am trying to say is that mods don't need to be perfect to be valuable. If they contain some grain of a useable feature they might be adapted by mission authors in custom scenarios. They might offer instructive details that others trying to achieve the same results can examine. It would be great if known compelling works were kept somewhere safe other than via forum attachments and temporary file sharing sites. I suppose we used to collect such things in our internal SVN for safe keeping but even that isn't always viable. If folks would rather not post beta or incomplete mods to TDM's Moddb page, perhaps they would consider creating their own Moddb page or allow them to be added to my page for safe keeping. Please don't look at this as some sort of pressure campaign or anything. I fully understand anyone not willing to put their name next to something they aren't fully happy with. As a general proviso, ( if possible \ permitted ) I just want to prevent the loss of some valuable investigations and formative works. The end of Doom3world was a digital apocalypse similar to the death of photobucket. It is one of my greatest fears that TDM will become a digital memory with only the skeletons of old forum threads at the wayback archive site.
  21. Congrats on the release! Remember to check ThiefGuild as well as the DarkFate forums (via Google Translate) for additional feedback.
  22. Ambient atmospheres are in my opinion one of the best parts of the Dark Mod experience, not just for getting a mission to have the right feel but also for inspiration and to have them playing in the background when creating maps. The more the merrier, so here's a thread to collect all the links to ambient music and environmental sounds that could have a spot in TDM's setting. Ambients from the TDM forums Gast's Eerie Lullabies Magnanimous Merry's Miscellanea Orbweaver's Dark Ambients Spadey's Ambients Radioteque's Ambients Kyyrma's Composing Ambient Tracks for Dummies - Kyyrma shows how ambient soundtracks can be made from a set of sounds. Also contains some of his finished ambients. Request for more interior sounds - this thread is a very productive community session where members came up with a large and good selection of new ambients. Uncle Peti's Sound Den Dragofer's Ambients - post #6 in this thread SeriousToni's Ambients - posts #8, 12, 15 and 19 in this thread Ambients from the TTLG forums Custom resources list Gigagooga's Ambients 1 - possibly the largest pack of ambient musics and nature sounds, all of them high quality. Gigagooga's Ambients 2 - this pack puts more weight on shorter swells/hits/pads to be layered on top of a subtle ambient. Gigagooga's Ambients 3 Yandros' ambient loop Sephy's Ambients - a large collection of ambient pieces, including many shorter ones which will be valuable for anyone wanting to try a layered ambience approach like in the Thief OMs and Full Moon Fever. Internet databases www.freesound.org - some of the better composers in my opinion are ERH and BrandonNyte. www.purple-planet.com - a large selection of all kinds of ambient and musical soundtracks to be used freely. www.darkwinter.com - an internet label that publishes a lot of dark ambient music under a Creative Commons license. www.endlessascent.com - sister website of Darkwinter for non-dark ambients. Youtube Asatru Dark - also has very nice reference images for outdoor stone memorials, statue arrangements etc. #4 Void by Raffaele du Marteau & #6 Dreaming of Nowhere by Raffaele du Marteau - possibly the most forlorn pieces I've found on the internet. Alacazam - a prolific Creative Commons ambients composer . Cryo Chamber - for-profit label for dark ambient music with a large selection on offer. Going by their Youtube comments they're fine with people using their soundtracks for games etc., although you'd probably need to buy the soundtracks first. Dark Ambient Mixed Session - as much ambient as something to have in the background while mapping.
  23. Just curious, based on this discussion: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/19239-soft-r-gamma/?p=427350
  24. Contributions downloads are at http://fidcal.com/DarkMod/index.htm Note that there is no dedicated beautiful sortable webpage list. I don't have time and also this means less delays. Just browse the folders and click on readmes and images and grab any zips. If anyone submits anything I can just upload it in a few minutes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you wish to offer coding, modelling, or any other kind of help got to the I want to help forum for discussion. If you have any extensive assets you wish to discuss also you can go to the I want to help forum. If you simply want to share an FM, prefab(s), textures, whatever then post details in this thread (there are other websites for FMs too.) Generally these need to be zipped up with a description.txt plain text file and optionally an image, and uploaded somewhere I can get them such as a fileshare website like rapidshare. Any problem with that and if you have ftp I can arrange a direct upload to a private temporary folder on my website. All submissions to this thread should be accompanied by a short description summary to go on the download page and optionally a picture(s). Such submissions will be placed on my website download page (wip) at fidcal.com. Anything suspect for any reason I reserve the right to delete. I accept no liability for downtime or even no-continuance of the download section or even the entire website for any reason. Downloaders: I accept no liability if you download anything you'd rather not: download at your own risk. Oh yes, and I am not responsible for global warming, economic depression, you name it; I'm not responsible. From there, any mappers can download what they want. The Dark Mod Team may or may not assess some items for inclusion in future Dark Mod updates. FMs may be assessed for inclusion on the Dark Mod website. Anyone feel free to mirror the download folder. Any suggestions post in this thread too.
  25. I did play Thief and FMs, but I don't play it any more, except for major things like Black Parade. The clunky movement and antiquated Dromed editor is what discouraged me from interacting with it over the years. I regularly play and sometimes make content for TDM, because it has much better movement model than Thief. I know that most missions don't use it well, but if you construct your geometry (gaps, ledges, distances) using power of two measurements, movement and mantling feels fast and snappy. There's no need for regression in that regard, in my opinion, there's a need for assets and missions made with the movement model in mind, to showcase its strengths properly. Even if TDM originally intended to "simulate the stealth gameplay of Thief, many things will be familiar to veteran Thief players" the actual mod history was a bit different. The team came up with a mission platform that has its own identity when it comes to mechanics. The way assets were made might have been a huge mistake, but that didn't prevent the platform from growing. Since you like anecdotal evidence, noone other Skacky once said that TDM movement model was super clunky, after playing The Painter's Wife. It was really hard to convince him that if a mapper places geometry this poorly, and isn't aware what spatial measurements play to the strengths of a movement model, no movement model will save his mission. And there is no fixing of this problem on the engine side, although it's not the first time when TDM team tries to address the asset problem with engine changes, which I suspect will ultimately lead to even more problems down the line. In game development, things like core mechanics and player tools are locked-down first, in one of the pre-production phases, because all the levels will be constructed around them. Making changes in core mechanics in a project this mature is very risky, I assume you don't plan on going through all playable spaces in all released TDM FMs to check for errors. Instead of making incremental changes in fundamental mechanics, I'd encourage you to create a fork, or some kind of major version bump candidate, like 3.0, where all things could be revamped: movement, player tools, UI, new frob mechanics, perhaps with UI contextual icons, new training map to incorporate all that, etc. Once all new elements fall into place and create something new, with a map or maps to back it up as relevant changes, it will be easier to convince existing player/author base that it was worth it. I assume the existing fanbase is already fragmented, as a result of all those heated discussions around the topic. But with multiple versions available for download, the transition to hypothetical "TDM 3.0" should be easier. It could be similar to UE2 and UE3, and you could also use this as an occasion to draw the line for backwards compatibility. I know there are old systems and variables kept in place just in order not to break existing missions. This way you could e.g. redo the LOD system, implement lights using math functions instead of textures, etc.
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