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Fidcal

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Ok, I think I've figured out a major part of the problem with Blender.... it goes back to what Fidcal was saying about the lack of a tutorial. There are dozens... hundreds of tutorials out there for Blender. Plenty of information. This isn't the problem. What IS the problem is that the Blender foundation makes such radical changes to the software between minor version numbers (this is a HUGE no-no from a development perspective) that 99% of the available tutorials are completely useless because the instructions refer to menu options and processes that AREN'T THERE due to changes in the already cryptic interface. (This is why it's a huge no-no.)

 

Any tutorial for any version number in the 2.x range should be reasonably useful for any 2.x version of Blender. The problem is that while there are dozens of tutorials out there for that range, almost all of them are only useful for their specific version. I'm trying to work through texturing and uv mapping a simple shape. The tutorial I have is for 2.45. The menu options it refers to (switch the display to 'UV Face Mode') isn't there in 2.49. (I have to assume it's somewhere in the interface, but I have no idea where.... it's not where the tutorial says it is.)

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What IS the problem is that the Blender foundation makes such radical changes to the software between minor version numbers (this is a HUGE no-no from a development perspective) that 99% of the available tutorials are completely useless because the instructions refer to menu options and processes that AREN'T THERE due to changes in the already cryptic interface. (This is why it's a huge no-no.)
Yeah, they really go for tiny increments in version number. 2.25 came out 8 years ago and now we're on 2.5 alpha 2. Just make sure you have a tutorial for the correct version. 2.49 has a tonne on youtube and vimeo. Also the manual on their wiki will cover it.

 

The menu options it refers to (switch the display to 'UV Face Mode') isn't there in 2.49. (I have to assume it's somewhere in the interface, but I have no idea where.... it's not where the tutorial says it is.)

 

I might be wrong but I think they stripped that out ages ago. It probably got merged with edit mode. I vaguely remember the UV Face Mode, but it's been a while.

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some of those vimeo video's dont work on the blender tutorial site, but if you click on the vimeo logo in the video window it will take you to the vimeo site where there's another copy of the video and that one usually works, am guessing its a codebase problem in the object code on the tutorial site, as some sites setup object code to work for internet explorer. but dont add the extra bits to make them work in other browsers.

 

am using version 2.49 alpha b

 

the u/v option is on the top bar on the bottom menu interface on the far left there's an option drop down with what looks like a open grid/hash symbol on it the u/v option is fourth from bottom on that option menu.

 

if thats not it then go into edit mode and select the faces you want to unwrap, then press 'u' key to unwrap faces, as long as you've got faces selected in edit mode, not lines or vertices.

Edited by stumpy
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Yeah, they really go for tiny increments in version number. 2.25 came out 8 years ago and now we're on 2.5 alpha 2. Just make sure you have a tutorial for the correct version. 2.49 has a tonne on youtube and vimeo. Also the manual on their wiki will cover it.

 

 

 

I might be wrong but I think they stripped that out ages ago. It probably got merged with edit mode. I vaguely remember the UV Face Mode, but it's been a while.

 

Yeah, some googling let me know about uv face mode, but not really what replaced it...

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Agreed about changes being too version-upsetting. It's pretty frustrating that, for one example, format imports and exports are busted pretty much every time a new version comes out. This puts it on the community to keep revising existing scripts forever, while the rest of the community waits and waits, using some mix of two versions in the meantime. Right now there is a wait for proper ASE support, and with rich_is_bored working on a DarkRadiant ASE export script, it's even more vital.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for this thread! I've, as a mapper, been fantasizing of learning to model some objects for my maps, but on second thought.... maybe not.

 

Half a month for a chair does not sound reasonable, when to think what one could achieve in DarkRadiant in the same amount of time.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Yeah, I just whipped up a neat transformer yesterday. Maybe not as good as making it from a model, but if modelling requires a huge commitment, I will take the brushes-and-objects Frankenstein monster version as an alternative.

 

Now for a way to animate those dials...

Edited by Melan

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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That's an unfair comparison. I could model the chair in that tutorial in five minutes if not less than that. It's a matter of experience and when you have none it takes a little while to do things.

 

Correct. I just had to try blender anyways. Curiosity kills the cat, I suppose. Here is my result with zero inital experience and Arcturus' excellent tutorial. It took about 1 hour to do. It was not so bad as I others may have suggested here.

 

For convenience here is the link to Arcturus' tutorial:

http://www.fileshost...hp?id=F02584AD1

 

chairl.png

 

I understood nearly everything until point 55.

*Why edge select specifically those edges? What are these seams? Why is this phase done? Why can't I just select all the faces and say unwrap?

*"Press b" why? what does that do?

*If you look at the chair seating texture, you'll notice that it is weird. The topmost face shows the texture downwards and the lowest faces shows the texture upwards. This applies to all faces on the seat part, but all other faces look fine. How to fix this? Why did this happen? I followed the tutorial to the best of my ability, but I made the chair slightly different for my own fun. Maybe I overlooked something?

 

Maybe it is possible to learn this after all. It would be really nice to be able to make some simple custom objects for specific missions and not be limited by the stuff available in TDM.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Yes, I must emphasise again and again - it's the tutorial that matters. It's unfair to compare one hour's work with Arcturus' tutorial with my painful struggles over weeks without it. I found Blender itself difficult but then there was a lot to learn. I cannot comment on the program because I have nothing to compare it with. It has lots of good things; it also has some (for me) non-intuitive things. But the main thing that held me up was the tutorials. This burned me out (and others.) Once I had Arcturus tutorial I too produced a chair more quickly.

 

It seems likely that with good information that is customised for our use (because Blender does other stuff most tutorials are not aimed at the end result going into Doom3) that Blender is a useful and free tool. Try to imagine coming to Dark Mod for the first time without the A-Z Guide. ;) Apart from not knowing where to start (except for DoomEdit tutorials) absolutely everything you learn you'd have to find individually. And some stuff you wouldn't even know you had to find! With the A-Z you get the basics and then you can build on that.

 

However, I note from the above chair image it is still in Blender. And some of the texturing looks wrong. When you have correctly textured it and exported it and got it working in Dark Mod then add that to the total time. It was the scaling and texturing that was one of the main problems. I recall producing an earlier version of the chair and when I checked in Dark Mod it was 2 inches high and the texture was wrong. In fact I had problems at every step of the way.

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*Why edge select specifically those edges? What are these seams? Why is this phase done? Why can't I just select all the faces and say unwrap?

You can select everything and tell it to unwrap, but the result will be crap (just look at the UV editor to see what comes out of that). That's why you place seams, to help the unwrapping algorithm do its job. It's the first direction you need to give yourself, as human.

 

*"Press b" why? what does that do?

Be is switching to the "Selection Brush" tool, iirc. You can click and "paint" over the scene to select anything you're touching with the mouse cursor.

 

*If you look at the chair seating texture, you'll notice that it is weird. The topmost face shows the texture downwards and the lowest faces shows the texture upwards. This applies to all faces on the seat part, but all other faces look fine. How to fix this?

The face normals probably point inwards instead of outwards (there's a toggle in the F9 controls at the bottom right, iirc, "Show Normals" which you can use to visualize this). To fix this, either switch to edit mode, select the whole model and click "Mesh" > "Normals" > "Recalculate Outside" (Ctrl-N). If that doesn't work (this is likely to fail if your model is not forming a closed hull), then select the faces in question and select "Mesh" > "Normals" > "Flip" (Shortcut is W,0).

 

Why did this happen?

That depends on how your workflow went, maybe you rotated some stuff around, or did not use the extrusion tool, or selected the vertices in the "wrong" order when creating your faces.

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Why edge select specifically those edges? What are these seams? Why is this phase done? Why can't I just select all the faces and say unwrap?

 

Imagine you have a small cardboard box and the intention of unwrapping it so you can run it through your printer like a piece of paper.

 

You are going to need to separate the box along a few edges so it will lay flat.

 

Selecting edges and marking them as seams designates where to "tear the box" during the unwrap operation.

 

If you logically mark seams, there is no reason why you can't select the whole model and unwrap it. But I believe he did it this way to demonstrate that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Generally you want to unwrap a model with as few seams as possible so that the texture "seamlessly" flows around corners. The more seams you have the more opportunities you have for a texture to be misaligned.

 

"Press b" why? what does that do?

 

It toggles box select better known as a rectangular selection. You also have "c" for circle select where you can "paint" a selection and CTRL + LMB for lasso select.

 

If you look at the chair seating texture, you'll notice that it is weird. The topmost face shows the texture downwards and the lowest faces shows the texture upwards. This applies to all faces on the seat part, but all other faces look fine. How to fix this? Why did this happen? I followed the tutorial to the best of my ability, but I made the chair slightly different for my own fun. Maybe I overlooked something?

 

In step 62 the seat of the chair is unwrapped as one piece and shows up in the bottom left corner of the UV window. The unwrap operation tries to prevent selected faces from occupying the same UV space so that they all sample their texture from a different part of the image.

 

If that is not the desired outcome it is possible to move the corresponding vertices in the UV window so the top and bottom overlap and therefore they both will sample from the same part of the image.

 

Alternatively you can unwrap the top or bottom independently as two separate pieces.

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@everyone

Thanks for your comments.

 

@greebo

To fix this, either switch to edit mode, select the whole model and click "Mesh" > "Normals" > "Recalculate Outside" (Ctrl-N).

That worked and the textures are no longer weird.

chair.png

 

 

 

 

@rich

Imagine you have a small cardboard box and the intention of unwrapping it so you can run it through your printer like a piece of paper.

 

You are going to need to separate the box along a few edges so it will lay flat.

 

Selecting edges and marking them as seams designates where to "tear the box" during the unwrap operation.

 

If you logically mark seams, there is no reason why you can't select the whole model and unwrap it. But I believe he did it this way to demonstrate that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Good explanation, I think I got it now. :D

 

@Fidcal

Yes, I must emphasise again and again - it's the tutorial that matters. It's unfair to compare one hour's work with Arcturus' tutorial with my painful struggles over weeks without it.

Agreed. I must clarify that my intention was not to show off and compare my work to your previous efforts. I mostly wanted to test myself whether the very negative comments made by others in this thread are true. The tutorial also contains a understandable looking instructions how make the model to the correct size and how to get the model in the DR. Also the resulting model is an ASE and not LWO, which I understood is not good?

 

If a total newbie like me can make a simple chair with good instructions in 1 hour, I suppose it is not entirely impossible to think creating some kind of custom model for a certain mission in a reasonable time.

 

I would love to see this tutorial by Arcturus to be wikified for others to benefit. Like Fidcal said, good information should be easily accessible. It's much easier to start with this information and I am in total agreement that it would have been impossible for me to accomplish anything without this tutorial.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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But the grain of the wood is still lying in the wrong direction on the chair legs. No woodsman ever cuts a length of wood across the grain which is the weakest direction. That chair would break if sat upon. It would shear across the grain and the legs would break in half.

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Imagine you have a small cardboard box and the intention of unwrapping it so you can run it through your printer like a piece of paper.

 

This! These!

 

These are the kind of explanations that are so valuable to me. They give you the real fucking "why" of the "what".

 

Thanks.

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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That's an unfair comparison. I could model the chair in that tutorial in five minutes if not less than that. It's a matter of experience and when you have none it takes a little while to do things.

 

<rant>

 

The question tho is: Why does it need you/me to learn for 1 month to do the same in blender than it does in DR? Why o why can't i model a chair in DR and a piece of software converts to whatever-freaking-format blender needs? How hard can it be to take one description of faces+textures and create another description of faces+textures from it?

 

There is that ASE output script ( I think its even by you, sorry if I confuse you with someone :) and it works reasonable well for say a chair. Simple model it from brushes, caulk the unseen faces, export as ASE. So,why should I learn for a month to replicate this in blender?

 

Very very often it seems it is still expected that the user conforms to the computer model, not the other way round.

 

As someone important say: Easy things should be easy, hard things should be easy, and impossible things merely hard. But it seems the 3D modelling software (not just blender, it just confounds this with a messy interface) is still stuck in the "even the deadmost easiest things should be complicated" stage ..

 

</rantover>

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I would love to see this tutorial by Arcturus to be wikified for others to benefit.

 

I'm glad you find it usefull. If anyone wants to put it on Wiki please feel free to do so. 

 

<rant>

The question tho is: Why does it need you/me to learn for 1 month to do the same in blender than it does in DR?

</rantover>

 

I think Sotha has proven that you don't need a month to learn basics? Also, did you know how to to use caulk texture from the day one of using DR? :)

It's only a model...

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I think Sotha has proven that you don't need a month to learn basics? Also, did you know how to to use caulk texture from the day one of using DR? :)

 

I knew it before I even did know about DR ;)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Tels,

 

If you'll allow me to take this opportunity to "rant" my favorite rant:

 

All of this chaos is due to The Chaos of The (Capitalist) Market Place.

 

Short and encompassing (and maybe cryptic {so as to keep it short} but a google will take you to the texts, written ~150 years ago when the 2 genii were explaining it all).

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Just to clear up another misunderstanding. It didn't take me one month to learn the basics of Blender. I still haven't learnt the basics even beyond one month. If I'd learnt the basics I would have written an A-Z guide by now. :laugh:

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@Tels:

 

I didn't study modeling so I could make chairs with less polygons than I have fingers and toes. Brushes are more than adequate if that's the level of detail you are aiming for although I think the chair was kept simple for the sake of the tutorial.

 

But I hope people are striving for better than that if they're investing a month or more into learning a new skill. Otherwise then yes please, stick to DR and use the ASE export plugin I wrote.

 

I'm not really sure how to make modeling more intuitive than it is already. The technical aspect is entirely derived from the polygon and they are pretty damn simple. Voxels are an alternative but they aren't any less foreign compared to real life 3D objects. What's the most intuitive way to instruct a computer to make a polygon short of plotting points in space and connecting them?

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The technical aspect is entirely derived from the polygon...

 

Another of my questions to see if I'm right about things I sorta-semi-intuit... doesn't it all get broken down to triangles? I mean I see that is one of those things you can have the console show you about what the renderer is doing... And isn't that because trig is a deep set of math that has all of the beautifully established functions that must be so suited to rapid-fire calculations? IOW, the polys are not the atom here, but instead are the things that can be reduced themselves very quickly to an array of triangles?

 

I hope that makes a little sense at least and isn't so dead-obvious or dead-wrong that it can be answered and not hijack the conversation. Thanks.

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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