Things That Aren't Fun...

[aidakeeley]

There have obviously been many excellent improvements in TDM compared to Thief, so this is not meant as a criticism of TDM in particular but maybe a further list of things that hopefully can be improved somehow.

[aidakeeley]

Having effectively no guaranteed visual clues as to which items will be frobbable. I believe I came across a candle that looked like 100s of other candles I've seen that I was not able to frob and extinguish recently. Kind of irritating to tell the truth. Which leads me to my second thing-I-don't-love...

 

Possibly what happened above was that I just couldn't get the damned thing to frob because there was so much other frobbable (but unmoveable) stuff around it that I couldn't get it highlighted. How to frob the slightest thing in a polyglob(?) of frobbables?! I'm actually getting pretty good at plucking those arrows from quivers now, but still...

Also related to all of this (may be just a variation/reiteration of the first theme here)? Scanning bookshelves full hoping to catch the one that highlights and knowing full well it's easy to miss, and knowing even more full well there is probably nothing there... It'd be nice to have some consensus on what a readable book might look like, even if the difference is so slight it still takes a pretty good scanning of bookshelves, just not as much as now. Maybe this is already a convention, but I'd really appreciate it if it was moreso.

 

...

 

More to come, maybe, from me.

 

And maybe others have certain pet-peeves/ideas?

Edited May 3, 2010 by aidakeeley

[jaxa]

Scanning bookshelves full hoping to catch the one that highlights and knowing full well it's easy to miss, and knowing even more full well there is probably nothing there...

 

Have any missions even had the secret door book switch trope yet? I remember seeing a couple of pots in a bookshelf obscuring traditional switches.

 

Myself, I haven't had any noticeable trouble with frobbing but I feel that carrying objects could be improved. It's easy to bump into stuff and create a huge racket when turning around, so you have to use the scroll wheel to "reel it in" so that you're hugging the object. You may need to back away slowly as part of that as well. And crates. Moving crates around seems a bit slow and there's a larger mass to them which causes their movement to lag behind your cursor. Contrast this to Thief 2 where moving a crate is instant and trivial. I also don't remember seeing any missions where stackable crates allowed you to get to an exciting area yet, but it could become an annoyance in the future.

 

So what kind of visual clues for frobbing are you talking about? The glitter effect from TDS? Increased sensitivity or range for frobbing? Less sensitivity because of lots of objects? More sensitivity for objects not near other frobbables, less sensitivity for large close groups of frobbables? Do you have problems getting items out of chests?

Edited May 3, 2010 by jaxa

[aidakeeley]

Many quote-unquotes to follow.

 

So what kind of visual clues for frobbing are you talking about?

 

Well, in the "case" of books... I'd love it if the convention adopted was reliant on the improved graphics. Much like the readable notes, where you can actually read them as they lay there, it'd be great to have "actual" books where you can read the spine. Fer instance. Something like that.

 

The glitter effect from TDS?

 

Maybe, but not necessarily that you can "unrealistically" tell from across the room. It's just that some times the lights in a room may be so shiny that the frob indication is effectively lost -- especially with books in shelves. At least I feel I have to "worry" about it. The thing with bookshelves being tedious to be sure you are scanning well enough to get a proper frob indicator has always been there and now with the lovely lighting of TDM it makes me even less confident that I'm going to see it as I go scanning along. A glittering or somesuch less subtle indicator when appropriately close enough would be good. But, nah, I didn't really like the glitter from 50 feet thing...

 

Do you have problems getting items out of chests

 

Oh yeah, this kind of thing. As with the arrows in quivers on huge ragdolls, this can be frustrating. I don't know exactly what can be done, but maybe something as radical as a pop up of those things that overlap to choose from -- pretty radically different than tradition, I guess, and may be something that'll send purists round the bend, but I don't believe it should freak anyone out (I just believe it will freak some people out -- "the very idea! how very dare you!" )

 

...

 

I think your idea about not having the moveables clink and clank by snapping to center of the screen is already a beyond consideration and being worked on to improve it. If one of the creators can verify. Or I'll report back if they don't with where I saw that (or an apology for imagining it).

[Melan]

As I see it, the problem with bookcases is not frob highlight, but visual complexity. In a Thief mission, identitfying a frobbable bookshelf switch was a matter of finding an object in a texture field (which could be hard enough). In TDM, it is a matter of finding one object among several others, which replaces observation with tedium. It is particularly frustrating if I know there is a switch in a relatively small space but can't find it for the life of me. I think these devices should be used much more sparingly now, and be accompanied by strong visual and readable clues (e.g. a scroll should point you at least towards a general area, then the switch object should stick out of its environment). But much like the minuscule "library switches" of Thief 2 (from Casing the Joint/Masks), they are better avoided and replaced with much cooler alternatives - like physically dismantling a shelf to uncover a secret entrance, or removing a loose brick to access a hidden keyhole. But this is not a mod issue; it is a question of intuitive vs. non-intuitive game design, and thus up to the level builders.

 

I like frob highlight and crate physics myself; they are part of the gameplay and a good challenge in "managing" your environment. This is not entirely realistic as aidakeeley has pointed out, but something for something - I have more problems with an environment where only a select few entities are dynamic and the rest can't be manipulated. Better endure some frob-hunting if you also have the option of getting a pot off that shelf and hurling it across the floor to distract an AI.

 

If there is a gameplay problem I would especially like to see addressed, it is the unnaturally quick AI reaction times: if one goes on full alert, they are in immediate attack mode with others converging at you from all directions at record speed. It is more sensible to give them that crucial, long "What the hell?! Oh shit!" moment and a lessened alert transmission capability. I don't know how it really works in code, however, so I don't know how practical the suggestions are. There are probably higher priorities.

 

The rest of my ideas for improvement are more resource-related (more AI voicesets with more varied barks and mechanical gizmos/textures above all), and will probably be up to the wider community to address. I personally plan to create some textures when I have the time.

[Fidcal]

Readable book spines is perfectly possible now but a lot of work. And then the player would feel obliged to read them all just in case.....

 

Some of these go with the territory and might not be ideally solveable. For instance, in Thief I always felt obliged to slash every banner I saw just in case. We don't have that in Dark Mod (but someone might set it up possibly) but in Dark Mod you really have to inspect every painting to see if it can be stolen. And this is like the bookshelves. I feel obliged to scan along every shelf which in a big library is a lot! The answer I think is to give a cursory search and trust that the FM maker will leave a clue if there is something to find. I don't mind if a clue specifies roughly the bookcase and at least you know there is something to find. And yes, jaxa, there is at least one book lever and I think two actually, in Dark Mod FMs. One related annoyance is that we don't have enough variety in bookshelves so they mostly look the same.

 

I have trouble seeing keys on belts but nobody else does so must be me I guess. I feel compelled to blind frob every AI I see.

 

The TDS loot glint was definitely opposed by the TDM team so that won't happen. It is true that some of the frob highlights in TDM are not too clear and this is especially true in bright light. I often turn off my lantern when checking for frobbables.

 

The problem with chests is the player box size and crouch height. My personal belief is that the player box should have been narrower front to back so you can get nearer to things. This would add extra interest in that you could turn sideways to edge through narrower gaps just as you would in real life. Another possibility is for players to make the chest collision model narrower so you can get nearer. The crouch height is fixable using the toggle I described elsewhere so I can lean over a chest better than most players even when crouched. The crouch height was always a major annoyance for me. Pickpocketing a guard while looking up to his arse was not my idea of fun. Lockpicking a door handle way above ditto.

 

Handling carried objects is definitely a case of practice and experience. I have seen over months and months how natural and easy it gets. The added flexibility is way beyond the mere symbolic junk of Thief. And stacking crates is much better. You don't need to make big steps with TDM crates but just stack them way high and mantle up and that should cover most situations. Of course if it needs to go very high then you can't carry up a crate while mantling so that would need some ingenuity - probably throwing up a crate.

 

Problems that are more difficult in game than in real life. I believe each task should be similar in difficulty to RL. So it makes sense that it is difficult to swordfight with 3 guards at once but it should not be difficult to get on/off a ladder. We are far better than Thief in this respect where just climbing on a bed might need 10 tries and might not even work. (in this respect, spotting loot and other frobables probably would need some thought anyway so maybe the frob highlight indistinctiveness is good in that respect.)

 

Another example of the above is when the player cannot walk through gaps they should be able to in RL. A post that is close to a wall that you go to walk behind and can't when obviously in RL you could. The worst case is furniture: tables and chairs that are so close you need to treat them like an army training excercise. Mappers should always test and move things so it is easy to move around where you would expect to. (this annoyance also relates the player box size one.)

 

An area where you think "how do the AI get in and out of here?" I don't mean a ladder only access as we can pretend they can climb but I mean climb in a window and there are a couple of rooms but no other door. Presumably the person living there always climbs in the window. Ooops.

 

Modern bathrooms. Boring. Generally speaking I think they are crap. And I mean any bathroom that emulates the modern layout. I guess I'm mainly thinking of Thief where they have some really modern fittings but mostly bathrooms are the least interesting for me. Hey! here's a good idea for a contest: Best Believable Bog contest.

[bad marine ass]

For me it would be combat. I definitely appreciate the lot of work put into having melee combat, especially since no one had managed a successful attempt at doing this before (though I recall there were a few attempts at having the attack-block melee combat). Still, I prefer TDP and TMA's combat system, since it felt more toe-to-toe and required quick reflexes; TDM's combat seems to be more of your turn-my turn-your turn-my turn, and the AI running into your face at times can be a bit jarring and disengaging from the experience.

[raymeld]

For me it would be combat. I definitely appreciate the lot of work put into having melee combat, especially since no one had managed a successful attempt at doing this before (though I recall there were a few attempts at having the attack-block melee combat). Still, I prefer TDP and TMA's combat system, since it felt more toe-to-toe and required quick reflexes; TDM's combat seems to be more of your turn-my turn-your turn-my turn, and the AI running into your face at times can be a bit jarring and disengaging from the experience.

 

 

Which is why I prefer an arrow to the throat from the shadows !

[jaxa]

For instance, in Thief I always felt obliged to slash every banner I saw just in case.

 

This is definitely on my wish list. I carried this behavior over to TDM until I realized it was completely impossible.

 

An area where you think "how do the AI get in and out of here?" I don't mean a ladder only access as we can pretend they can climb but I mean climb in a window and there are a couple of rooms but no other door. Presumably the person living there always climbs in the window. Ooops.

At least the AIs can use elevators. Maybe someone will add ladder and rope climbing but that seems like it would take a lot of (AI) coding and animation. Fails to read.

 

This is a problem I've thought about but I don't think I've experienced myself. Has anyone knocked over loot in such a way that it fell behind a bookcase or under a bed, and was impossible to retrieve? If memory serves me correctly, I knocked a goblet or something under a bed, and got it back by throwing another object at it. The tradeoff seems acceptable though. It's a rare way to lose loot. Mappers may want to make certain obvious loot stationary so that it's completely idiot proof and other objects just bounce off of it.

Edited May 3, 2010 by jaxa

[LEGION]

Fidcal: I too have the habit to blindfrob AI´s. It seems keys are only highlighted if you center them and not the AI. But even centered they are hard to spot. If an AI does have 2 keys, I never saw the second, so I always make a double-blindfrob.

 

So far I had no problems with the highlight-system. Like Fidcal, i always deactivate the lantern while searching for sth. But this secret bookcase-levers I don´t saw until now, but I haven´t played all the FMs yet.

 

As for frobbing itself: well, I like it very much to have everything frobable. (is it 'frobable' or 'frobbable'?) I don´t like the far frob-distance. (object and doors) I want to get close to objects to frob them. And I don´t like the noise when frobbing objects. It´s hard, really hard to know what distance and angle you must have for not making noise if you wanna 'inspect' an object. Isn´t it possible to remove the 'first noise'-effect?

And like Fidcal, I don´t like the crouch-position too. I have now the habit to climb of opened chests to look inside. As we speak of it, Fidcal, what did you talked about crouch-height-toggle? I will look myself in the console for that...

 

And slashing banners: In Thief I always blindfrobbed (again this blindfrob) banners. Don´t want to slash those nice things. (And some guards will notice! In Ramirez they did.) And I hope it will be possible in DarkMod. It´s like position your hand behind the banner and touching for something.

 

And as Melan said: The AI is a little bit fast in alert-mode. In example they´re able to see very far and run like Hell to me. You can test this in 'No Honor Among Thieves' in the city mission. They should walk normally and investigate but not be in fighting mode.

 

The Melee-system is very good. With the difficulties it should work for everyone.

 

So, the most thing that should be improved IMO is the frob-system.

As for the amount of frobbable objects: it could be a difficulty-setting: the higher it is, the more objects are frobable. (I want to see frobbable chairs, it´s so cool to bump into them! )

[stumpy]

I dont like the great key hunt, or the great loot hunt, where the loot objective is set to find all the loot in the map, but you cant find it because its dropped somewhere impossible to get, or in an update just before release the loot available in the map is less than the loot you need to finish.

 

 

There's a problem with some of the frobable objects you can put in game, usually ends up as being a problem with the collision object assigned to them being corrupt. The hanging geese model I had in lord dufford's wouldn't load damp said the collision model was corrupt, so I had to create a collision model for it and add it to the files that came with the map.

Edited May 3, 2010 by stumpy

[Springheel]

Well, in the "case" of books... I'd love it if the convention adopted was reliant on the improved graphics.

 

There's no way to enforce these conventions, however. If a mapper chooses to do something different, you just have to live with it, and try to guess whether other mappers will do the same thing. I've found objects in one map that were junk objects, but the exact same object in another map was loot. I never bothered to pick it up because I assumed it would be junk as well.

 

I actually made slashable banners for TDM a while ago, but I didn't really like the effect all that much. I have on my list of Things To Do a frobbable banner that you can slide aside; just haven't gotten to it yet.

 

as Melan said: The AI is a little bit fast in alert-mode.

 

Yes, this is a perfectly valid complaint. I've been pushing for modifications to the alert system for a while, but the AI alert code is pretty complex and I don't think anyone is that excited about diving back into it.

[Fidcal]

... I don´t like the noise when frobbing objects.

 

I believe you are talking about carryables scraping a surface when picked up? If so, it is definitely practice until it becomes instinctive to raise your eyeline slightly above the object then frob and it lifts up to the screen centre. For instance, yesterday I was lifting up plates and stuff in a kitchen or diner in Honor without a sound just because through habit I now naturally do this. Imagine how long a baby learns to walk but eventually it requires no thought. Believe me, perservere with this because it was months and months before I improved (though I wasn't particularly trying.) At one time we had a test map with a table full of junk to test sound alert levels. We needed to get a good balance between it not being too difficult but also possible to throw a goblet etc to divert an AI. So that was good practice. Maybe we could release that test map - it's only a couple of plain rooms.

 

Fidcal, what did you talked about crouch-height-toggle?

Here's the post...

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/10497-chests-footlockers-non-solid-bug-fix/page__view__findpost__p__206480

 

Especially read the notes so you remember when you can't mantle or get under something to switch to low crouch again.

[Bikerdude]

The TDS loot glint was definitely opposed by the TDM team so that won't happen. It is true that some of the frob highlights in TDM are not too clear and this is especially true in bright light. I often turn off my lantern when checking for frobbables.

 

Would it possible to add a lumous partical effect to objects..?

[bad marine ass]

I believe you are talking about carryables scraping a surface when picked up? If so, it is definitely practice until it becomes instinctive to raise your eyeline slightly above the object then frob and it lifts up to the screen centre.

 

Looks like I need to practise too, as it's a bit hard to get used to this. Just as an idea though, would it be possible so that picking up an object does not cause the object to be positioned in that fixed distance away from you? Instead, "using" (picking up) the object simply picks it up in its current position.

[Fidcal]

There are various problems with that. For instance, the frob distance is variable so you might frob a chair from 8 feet away. Supposing that worked and the chair is floating 8 feet away. Then you reel it in with the zoom. Can you reel it out again to 8 feet? if so, what about other objects that you frobbed from 2 feet. Can they be zoomed out to 8 feet? 10 feet? What about manoeuvring around with an object so far away? Even more difficult. I think there were other problems associated with this idea. I know we kicked around every idea we could think of when developing.

 

No, the current system works but it needs practice. The team is unlikely to try to 'fix' something that works. We did a lot of internal trials and testing and tweaking over years of development and this is very stable. It is just practice and then you will wonder what the problem was. Judge your distance from the object and look up so the object is in the centre of the screen but very slightly below the centre. Frob it. The object stays put at the screen centre or may rise up one inch clear of the surface and other objects nearby to the centre of the screen. If you practice then you will find it quite natural to lift things clear without scraping. You will also need to consider if you are looking down (in which case allow for the angle) and to learn to judge distance if the object is in the middle of other objects. The flexibility and control you will get is way beyond the mere 'icon' you get in Thief so it increases gameplay but needs more practice.

[aidakeeley]

Nice to see all the contributions.

 

I hope this isn't irritating any of the developers, it's certainly not meant to, of course; and the fact that you all are really busy working on other things is understood by all, I would imagine. Definitely not meant to increase any stress.

 

I see and concur with exactly what Springheel and others have said about the "conventions" fixes having to be adopted by the FM mappers rather than a "fix" to TDM. So, this thread is not entirely about please pleas to the modders; it's also about kind of please pleading to the FM mappers as well

 

I also understand and appreciate Fidcal's explanation of the difficulties in working out a better solution to the manipulation center-snap thing. It makes good sense especially as far as depth goes. Maybe some slight variance can be worked out with regards to the other dimensions? Maybe not. To tell the truth I have become much better at it with practice (and I think this manipulation thing is awesome anyway, see Melan's ideas for incorporating-the-manipulation-into-puzzle-solving-type-of-thing).

 

As a matter of fact most of the ideas/issues raised here are excellent.

 

Another one I'd throw support towards as it seems quite workable is the player having a anthropomorphic shape in collision-space. Would love to be able to squeeze sideways through otherwise impassable gaps!

[bad marine ass]

I hope this isn't irritating any of the developers, it's certainly not meant to, of course; and the fact that you all are really busy working on other things is understood by all, I would imagine. Definitely not meant to increase any stress.

 

Hear! Hear! I can't code if my life depended on it. For all that's been said, I'm still mighty impressed by the effort put into TDM - this is not meant to be patronizing in any way.

[Fidcal]

It is highly unlikely that the player size will change now because it might break existing maps if you could reach areas that you should not. Certain values and properties were fixed before TDM launched: maximum mantle height, minimum crouch, long jump distance, etc. Ideally the player collision shape might imo be a tall pyramid with its top cropped off then turned upside down and flattened front to back to approximate the human shape. Thus you could navigate narrow gaps between low objects (up to the height of your knees say a low stool next to a bucket) but have to turn sideways to squeeze between two tall pillars the same distance apart.

 

A related annoyance for me is that (to me) objects seem too far away even when you pressed up to them. For example, if you press up to a table in RL and look down you see the table below you. In Dark Mod you see the floor. I think this is because although the eyes are stuck on the front, if they rotated around themselves when you turn it would look odd so instead I think they rotate about a head centre. But in RL your head tilts forward to look down. I have offset this somewhat by decreasing my g_fov and this gives a more intimate effect at the expense of a wider view.

[aidakeeley]

It is highly unlikely that the player size will change now because it might break existing maps...

 

Aw, that's too bad. Not to be rude but it's such a good idea it might still be worth it to try. Quite a few FMs (T1 and T2s and even a couple of TDMs) have the oops-you-ain't-supposed-to-be-able-to-get-theres anyhow . Plus not to be rude but there aren't hundreds of TDM FMs yet and it is still beta, no?

 

It wouldn't otherwise destroy or damage or even affect all those other things you mentioned (maximum mantle height, minimum crouch, long jump distance, etc), would it? And, I don't know, but I am guessing it wouldn't even be hard to adjust the model as it's (still guessing) just a set of numbers representing the model in a code Object? Sorry if I'm way off there and it's a real 3-D model/entity-type thing.

Edited May 4, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Berny]

I don't like the sound when you (clear/dislight/ I don't know the right word for it) a candle. It sounds like when you through water at it, but in fact you blow at it.

 

All the other things are fine There could be a more variaty in AI actions and more conversation, but that's no big deal

 

 

[Melan]

It is simply not a good idea to make far-reaching changes to core gameplay elements unless there is a really good reason. I would be bothered as a level builder if it suddenly turned out that carefully considered design issues were circumvented because some people on a message board liked it better that way. Of course, there is always a fine line between justified and arbitrary redesigns, but if people could live with Thief's interface and mechanics, they should be prepared to live with TDM's, and accept that the mod team has made their decisions for a good reason. I am sure there will be some customised mods similar to the T3 Minimalist Project, but I think the core should stay reasonably intact over the years.

[Berny]

In my mind the gameplay changes compared to T2 are great! Combat, climbing, ect. It's different yes, but in it's own way not worse than the other thief games

 

It's not a better looking copy of T1-3 - it's a separate game with separate possibilities. 

 

 

[Springheel]

I don't like the sound when you (clear/dislight/ I don't know the right word for it) a candle. It sounds like when you through water at it, but in fact you blow at it.

 

This will be addressed in 1.02.

[Berny]

everytime when I find a very small little ect thing in the game which I don't like you tell me that it's gonna be changed

 

^^

 

I love this mod!