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The Worst TDM Missions


Shadowhide
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Maybe he doesn't like the genre. Maybe he's just a graphics whore and even a good (but ugly) mission wouldn't be fun. It's not Crysis dude, it's a slow action contemplative game. People who really like Crysis probably will never like TDM and vice versa. Sure Crysis is beautiful but I have no interest in it myself, I'd rather play T1 with it's aweful graphics.

actually,he played and enjoyed T1/2 and some FMs.Graphics have no matter,design and gameplay does

maybe T1 graphics (models,textures) are aweful,but level design is really great unlike some TDM fms

2) There are many many many tiny little crappy Thief 2 FMs out there too and no one warns you before you download them, too!

yeah,but nobody recommend them as best FMs

Best community has best resilient troll too? Theoretical question!

Maybe a future ModDB award for 2012?

You're gonna burn alright.

I think you should point your friend at the Top missions thread instead

the problem is people recommending bad missions

Proceed with caution!

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"it even looks worse than T2 fms,small and boring".

actually,he played and enjoyed T1/2 and some FMs.Graphics have no matter,design and gameplay does

maybe T1 graphics (models,textures) are aweful,but level design is really great unlike some TDM fms

 

yeah,but nobody recommend them as best FMs

 

the problem is people recommending bad missions

So which is it, he didn't like the map because it was ugly or not. You said in one post he didn't like ONE FM because IT was ugly and small so he wrote off TDM completely, and yet in another post you say he doesn't mind ugly graphics at all. (You also said in the first post I quoted he was not a fan of the series, yet in this new post you said he played them and enjoyed them quite a bit (so is he a fan or not? He doesn't have to be foaming at the mouth to be a 'fan')

 

But still it comes back to the one point you just don't seem to grasp. That that ONE mission ISN'T TDM. That's one mission made by one person WITH TDM RESOURCES. It's also a fairly early one (ie: less experienced mapper)

 

And you blame other people for not recommending good maps, yet YOU are the one who recommended TDM to him, but failed to explain or recommend WHAT the mod is. And which maps he should play.

 

 

I dont think the Fms are to blame, but the fact that its made out of D3.

 

Its really hard for me to feel immersed into the missions, when i play i don't feel like, i am a thief stealing from a rich nobles mansion.

 

 

Really, what has that got to do with Doom3 at all? I don't see any resemblance in ANY of the FM's to Doom3 at all. Maybe I don't feel like 'Garrett', but honestly I never did, I just liked the gameplay.

How is the gameplay of TDM REALLY any different than T2? OK, the bow might arc a little different, you have different controls (ie ~ is a console key and we can't use it to put weaps away like in T2), there are dynamic shadows you can hide in...

Sure maybe timing and stuff is off by milliseconds or whatever, but REALLY how is it any different than thief gameplay.

 

I honestly think you just have a mental block against liking TDM gameplay as much as T2. It might not be 100% the same but it's not different enough to just be a completely different experience.

 

We're talking strictly gameplay here. That IS TDM.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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How is the gameplay of TDM REALLY any different than T2? OK, the bow might arc a little different, you have different controls (ie ~ is a console key and we can't use it to put weaps away like in T2)

 

Actually you can set your keybinds to use ~ to put away weapons...in fact I thought it was now like that by default.

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How is the gameplay of TDM REALLY any different than T2?

 

for me , there are only a few missions which feels like thief (1/2). For example:

Tears of St. Lucia

Builder's Influence

The Caduceus of St. Alban

I played the other ones only for 5 minutes. When there is no thief feeling i never had end a mission.

But i played thief 1 and 2 several times ( thief 1 about 10 times, i think that was the best game of the series), so my expectations are very specific to that.

But i think also other missions are still very good if someone dont only search for "thieflike" missions or even never played thief. Most of the people who playes T3 first sai that this is the best part ( and i completly disagree with that).

It is, as always, a point of view of different persons.

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Thief (1,2,DS) is a complete game made by a dedicated professional studio creating a story driven compaign with a near-perfect protagonist characterization, so there's no match with a single FM out of context. This is simply obvious but it's not about the gameplay (technically TDM has a better gameplay than Thief): it's about the whole Garrett-centric context!

But TDM is growing strong and the future campaign will be a milestone, rest assured.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Yeah, but that proves my point.

 

If certain missions DO feel thiefy to you, then how does TDM NOT feel thiefy because it's in Doom3 ENGINE.

 

It's not like Thievery. When played thievery I still felt like I was a clunky space marine due to the movement. To me the movement was tuned at all to feel different. TDM doesn't feel like the Doom3 guy at all.

And it's not like the texturing even in ugly maps with our worst textures looks Doom3 ish at all.

 

The Mod has been modded enough that no real resemblance to Doom3 exists, unless someone uses Doom3 assets.

 

But most of a mission not feeling thief probable has more to do with atmosphere created by the mapper than anything. Thief used ambient music heavily, and really well. If a map doesn't have that it is a major 'breaking point' in having that same feeling.

 

-----------

This whole discussion is about that point. The FM's aren't TDM. They are built with it. If an author fails to capture the Thief feeling, it's not because it can't be done.

 

But I still feel quite thiefy in every map I've played. It has to do with equipment, what my expectations going in are, etc...

 

I think we have an over abundance of people who are just so picky they won't even allow themselves to enjoy the experience, too many preconceived notions of 'playing Doom3', 'it's not thief' ,etc.... Where as Thief FM's almost always feel 'thiefy' because there are no preconceived notions to buck.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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And I share the same opinion!

TDM must NOT overfitt "Thief model expectations", it would be lethal for mapper creativity! TDM can go further than cloning Thief! And the campaign can do the magic.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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then how does TDM NOT feel thiefy because it's in Doom3 ENGINE.

NO ! only idiots will refuse to play TDM because it based on D3 engine

it feels Thiefy,it plays like Thief,but when you expecting awesome missions based on newer engine and getting this,you obviously be frustrated in mod in general

Proceed with caution!

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Knighton Manor is a beauty (->multiple entrances), you can't judge from a cellars/dungeons corridor, man! What do you expect from a cellars corridor? Maybe more moss on the walls, but it's correct.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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or take a look at this

skybox looks better than actual geometry

what a shame

The geometry is simple, not "bad". It's not a shame.

Same for some T2 maps (and original game maps too actually) looking to TDS ones (small but really well crafted).

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Shadowhide, you make no sense whatsoever.

 

You complain endlessly about Knighton Manor, which has average visuals, yet your own mission had some of the worst, most boxy geometry I've seen yet in TDM. One of the missions you list as your favourites is Patently Dangerous, which has visuals that are even weaker than Knighton Manor.

 

You complain that the "skybox looks better than actual geometry" one minute and then say "Graphics have no matter" the next. You're hard to take seriously at the best of times, and contradicting yourself doesn't help.

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Shadowhide, you make no sense whatsoever.

 

You complain endlessly about Knighton Manor, which has average visuals, yet your own mission had some of the worst, most boxy geometry I've seen yet in TDM. One of the missions you list as your favourites is Patently Dangerous, which has visuals that are even weaker than Knighton Manor.

 

You complain that the "skybox looks better than actual geometry" one minute and then say "Graphics have no matter" the next. You're hard to take seriously at the best of times, and contradicting yourself doesn't help.

Patently Dangerous looks and plays way better than Knighton manor,Springhat.Also Patently Dangerous have exiting and creepy storyline

-

You dont even get it

Skybox shouldn't look better than actual geometry.That is not right

Proceed with caution!

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Patently Dangerous looks and plays way better than Knighton manor

 

You're seriously going to argue that PD looks better than Knighton's?

 

Please explain how the PD images on the left are visually better or more complex than the Knighton ones on the right?

 

compare1.jpg

 

compare2.jpg

 

(for the record, I quite enjoyed PD, but I think the visuals are it's weakest element)

 

 

You dont even get it

 

At least five other people have ranked Knighton Manor as one of their Top 5 favourite missions, so I'm not sure I'm the one "not getting it".

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cant you see it yourself ?

PD have better lightning

1 batch of screenshots have same amount of detail (no details at all),but PD is textured and lighted way better than KM

as for 2 batch of screenshots - PD is way better detailed,lighted and textured than KN

Also you should keep in mind that PD was first Demagogue's mission,when KN was third sotha's mission

And PD was released year before KN

Proceed with caution!

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Also you should keep in mind that PD was first Demagogue's mission,when KN was third sotha's mission

And PD was released year before KN

 

Neither of those facts has any bearing at all on your claim that one looks better than the other.

 

PD is textured and lighted way better than KM

 

In what way?

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At least five other people have ranked Knighton Manor as one of their Top 5 favourite missions, so I'm not sure I'm the one "not getting it".

it means they have a bad taste

In what way?

sorry,my english is very poor,and im dont understand what you asking about

Proceed with caution!

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sorry,my english is very poor,and im dont understand what you asking about

 

Hello you two fighters :)

 

I think Springheel wants that you take some screens to prove your opinion, Shadowhide. Like he did it with the geometry (archway and house).

 

Don't kill each other, please ! ;)

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Not quite. To say the texturing and/or lighting is "better" doesn't tell me anything. How is it better?

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^ I think that is probably why people don't take your crits well Shadowhide.

 

You are great at saying this maps sucks, Skyrim suxors... But you never back it up. Sure in Skyrim you say 'all dungeons look the same'. But still, that doesn't say much. When I go in a dungeon I can tell it's a certain type (ice cave, tomb, rock cave, etc...) but that doesn't make them all look alike. Sorry, it just plain doesn't.

 

That's like saying all beaches look alike because they have sand and palm trees. And if you think they do then it's obvious you can never be taken seriously.

 

(don't turn it into a skyrim thread, it's just an example)

 

Did one mission not have enough lights? Too dark to see? Too bright to believe you could hide in shadow? No tense moments where you have to run from one shadow to the next through light where a guard might see you? No guards to see you if you stand in light? Too much color in lights? Not enough color in lights? Too many areas with no lights at all and too many areas with way too many?

Those are the types of things that make or break good lighting. Same goes for sounds, AI, etc... Just like a good book an FM has to use these things to pull and push you, make you feel safe, then in danger. And if you are going to complain at least give a slightly thought out and respectful comment on it, then people will understand you, and authors can learn from it to improve an updated version or a new map.

 

Otherwise you are just complaining to be a suxor.

-------------

 

To expand on the screenshots above..

 

Sure, that tunnel in Knighton doesn't look that great. That's my opinion. It's pretty clean, plain, nothing exciting. Maybe even boring. But so is the tunnel in Patently.

 

However:

 

1- I enjoyed both missions and can forgive them for not being Crysis.

2-Sotha made Knightington in what a month? So for having a fun mission made that quick with less than stellar graphics, not a bad compromise. Especially since he was trying to help boost the number of FM's to play more than trying to spend all his free time to make you alone happy.

3-PD's tunnel was meh too... But the rest of the map kicked ass. So I forgive it.

 

The outside shot of PD might look more interesting, because you are looking at several buildings and a windy street. KM you are looking at the front of a building. But to say the lighting in any of those pics varies by much is a stretch. They look very similar to me.

 

So you'll have to critique better than that.

-------------

 

I also think it's nothing more than a bit funny that when you compare a shot of a DR FM you pick a 'bad' one from an early FM and when you show a T2 pick you pick a nice one from a well received and popular late one. I had been mapping and playing T2 for years before Rocksburg came along. I was tired of doing it by then. I had already seen many mind blowing maps made by then. Not to put Rocksburg down at all, but by the time that came out it was no longer any surprise to people that the modding community had made T2 look so good.

 

Aside from that I feel it's a pretty simplistic attic shot that doesn't even prove the point you are trying to make about how good you want a mission to look. I could pick something from 7th crystal, cosas, CL that look way better. I could also show you a pick of blackheart that would blow them all away.

 

But by the time Rocksburg came out people had been making great FM's for years for T2. We're still in what, the 2nd year of FM's? I think maybe it's just been two years.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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It's a Thief 2 Mission called Night in Rocksburg. It's in the url for the image. ;)

 

Is it using custom textures or is that standard metal age textures?

 

 

it means they have a bad taste

 

 

Pertaining to Knighton Manor? I found that FM to be one of the better executed ones out of the whole batch and admired the gear puzzle in the basement.

 

 

Shadowhide, you make no sense whatsoever.

 

You complain endlessly about Knighton Manor, which has average visuals, yet your own mission had some of the worst, most boxy geometry I've seen yet in TDM.

 

I played winter harvest for 5 minutes and then exited back to the main menu.

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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I played winter harvest for 5 minutes and then exited back to the main menu.

 

I think what you can learn from this is multi fold SH,

 

When you made the mission you rushed it out, you didn't beta test, and when people complained I believe you got defensive.

 

If you had taken your time and got testing done you could have corrected the problems and when most people played they might have appreciated/enjoyed it more.

 

Then people offered to help you didn't they? But you gave up.

 

So you obviously don't understand what it really takes to produce a good map, but you complain with no good explanations.

 

Maybe next time you start to complain you should open up DR and try to map instead. Put that energy towards something useful.

 

What gets me is we know you can do good stuff, you did the convo map to help out, etc... And that is really appreciated by everyone. If you'd just spend more time working on that stuff then it would help everyone make better maps, and help draw in new people because they can see it being done easily.

 

But complaining about old maps that will probably never be revised just isn't any help at all.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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