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tg-like leaning and jumping


Luthien
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Here are some preliminary results in an attempt to get the feeling of Thief Gold's leaning and jumping physics in Tdm. I've determined these settings by posting stickers to my screen in tg and tdm while leaning and jumping with the nose pressed at a wall.

 

-- snip --

seta pm_jumpheight 34

seta pm_lean_forward_stretch "8.2"

seta pm_lean_forward_time "411.0"

seta pm_lean_forward_angle "4.1"

seta pm_lean_stretch "17.6"

seta pm_lean_time "411.0"

seta pm_lean_angle "4.1"

-- snip --

 

(I have that in tdp_tuning.cfg, called from autoexec.cfg with "exec tdp_tuning.cfg".)

 

Notes:

 

* Currently (2.01) pm_jumphight has to be set on the console every time; it does not work from any .cfg file.

* The lean settings shouldn't hurt any existing missions in any way, but the reduced jump height might break some missions.

* I've just assumed that pm_lean_forward_angle is the same as the plain pm_lean_angle in the original; I'm still thinking about a way to actually measure it. pm_lean_forward_stretch is pretty accurate, though.

* I estimated pm_lean_time by counting how many times tg allows you to lean and revert back to neutral in 15 seconds (14 times), and the same in tdm with the setting 384 (15 times). Actually, the default of 400ms is probably good enough, and I'm not sure if my measurement is precise anyway.

* I didn't bother to measure pm_lean_forward_time but just copied pm_lean_time. I'll do that later.

 

If I ever manage to get tdm compile and run on my Debian system I'll also take a closer look at the leaning mechanics that have some problems and room for improvement:

 

* If the pm_lean_*time is below 384, the view freezes in the leaning position.

* At the moment, the view tilting is out of sync with the streching, i.e. the final tilt angle is reached before the leaning animation has completes. That is slightly annoying, but really just a cosmetic issue.

* It's not possible to smoothly smitch between leaning direction. E.g., to lean left and then forward, the model first reverts to neutral position, then to forward leaning position. In the original game it switches from left to forward directly without going to the neutral position. As a side effect, tg never ignores a leaning keystroke while tdm requires a tiny break between leaning actions which makes you "feel" the interface more and somewhat breaks immersion into the game.

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Wow! I will analize it. With SCIENCE!

 

Err.. Just be careful not to break yourself.

 

I once had a mexican student who was always very eager to analize all the samples. For science, of course...

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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I used pretty much the same method when I tweaked the lean years ago, not that I perfectly replicated it of course but then again that didn't appear to be the desire either. Have people really been unhappy with our leaning system all these years? I can't recall any complaints.

 

The leaning always was good enough to me. No complaints whatsoever. Never felt the need to see it improved.

 

It would be nice to see a video of the old and new leans compared, though.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Something I would rather like to see regarding the leaning is that the lightgem should remain unaltered when leaning. I mean the lean is supposed to be this sneaky option to look around the corner unseen and our shadowreceiving lightgem evaluation pyramid should not be altered when doing so, in my oppinion.

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Something I would rather like to see regarding the leaning is that the lightgem should remain unaltered when leaning. I mean the lean is supposed to be this sneaky option to look around the corner unseen and our shadowreceiving lightgem evaluation pyramid should not be altered when doing so, in my oppinion.

 

The pyramid model moves only slightly to simulate the head sticking out. It's only ever an issue if you lean into light. The only reason this didn't happen in the original games is because there was only 1 light trace to the players feet. The new dark engine has an optional setting that can be turned on that takes a light trace from the top sphere of Garrett as well, the top sphere also happens to move just like ours and will moderately affect the lightgem. It's a little more tricky, but I've never had it present any major AI awareness issues.

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And I felt it was natural, as if you stick your head out into light you'd be blatantly obvious. You'd be even more obvious backlit when you stick your head out around a straight wall edge, but this doesn't deal with being backlit or shadowing lights at all.

 

I feel it would also remove game-play if you didn't want to be aware of lighting conditions before you lean.

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Can you post comparison screenshots for the lean? :)

 

Unpatched leaning (left)

post-33234-0-31012900-1394559079_thumb.jpg

 

Patched leaning in tdm (left)

post-33234-0-66681800-1394558969_thumb.jpg

 

Thief Gold (right)

post-33234-0-50118700-1394559125_thumb.jpg

 

Have people really been unhappy with our leaning system all these years? I can't recall any complaints.

 

The leaning always was good enough to me. No complaints whatsoever. Never felt the need to see it improved.

 

Actually, I just get motion sick from the leaning animation built into tdm 2.01. It tilts the view too much, I cannot use it the way it is. Other than that the 15 degrees tilt angle seem unnatural to me because that is not what you experience when you tilt your head in real life because the brain know where "up" is. It's really a matter of taste, but for me, everything that makes tdm resemble tdp more closely is good. :)

 

It would be nice to see a video of the old and new leans compared, though.

Oh, just put the lines above in foo.cfg and run "exec foo.cfg" from the console to see it live in the game.

Edited by Luthien
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Something I would rather like to see regarding the leaning is that the lightgem should remain unaltered when leaning...

 

The pyramid model moves only slightly to simulate the head sticking out. It's only ever an issue if you lean into light. The only reason this didn't happen in the original games is because there was only 1 light trace to the players feet.

 

Actually, I think the real problem is not the lightgem but that awareness of the AI raises too quickly when leaning. There should be a good chance that the AI does not become aware of you if the exposure to the AIs field of vision is very short.

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Actually, I think the real problem is not the lightgem but that awareness of the AI raises too quickly when leaning. There should be a good chance that the AI does not become aware of you if the exposure to the AIs field of vision is very short.

 

That should already be happening in 2.01 though. There were several fixes for the AI to delay reacting too quickly. The only way I could see the AI raising awareness quickly to a lean is if the player leaned directly into full brightness, and the AI was only a few feet away. If they're reacting wildly in any other circumstances then something would have to be wrong.

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Does that depend on the AI vision option? I really have very little experience with tdm yet, but my experience is that (with AI vision at hardcore level) AIs immediately come running at me if I glance around a corner for a slipt second into the AIs field of vision, or If I open a door and there is a guard at the other end of the room looking 89 degrees away from me. Also, I find it nigh impossible to blackjack someone from behind, even in pitch black, but on a metal floor.

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I really have very little experience with tdm yet, but my experience is that (with AI vision at hardcore level) AIs immediately come running at me if I glance around a corner for a slipt second into the AIs field of vision, or If I open a door and there is a guard at the other end of the room looking 89 degrees away from me. Also, I find it nigh impossible to blackjack someone from behind, even in pitch black, but on a metal floor.

 

Yes, if you have your AI Vision setting set to Hardcore, then they will have super quick vision.

 

Metal floors are the loudest solid surface (only water is louder, IIRC), so you will have a difficult time sneaking up on AI without them hearing.

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The floor shouldn't matter if I don't move.

 

Then why did you mention the type of floor?

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Not really, but anyway, I think at hardcore level there's something that makes AIs aware of you almost instantly if you're directly behind them, and it's very difficut to be close enough to bonk the AI on the head but not close enough to enter that "zone of awareness". I've tried that with a patrolling guard, crouching in a pitch black corner. The guard looks about 120 degrees away from me (waiting for a couple of seconds before moving on), and it's impossible to take it down from that angle although it's unaware for me. Then, when he starts to walk away, theres a tiny window in which the guard doesn't notice your attack but is still in reach of the blackjack.

 

Then why did you mention the type of floor?

For completeness in case it does matter, which was my impression.

Edited by Luthien
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Not really, but anyway, I think at hardcore level there's something that makes AIs aware of you almost instantly if you're directly behind them,

 

Not unless there's some kind of bug at work. AI can only see in the direction they're looking (with some peripheral vision) regardless of the vision setting. And if you're in pitch darkness it wouldn't matter if they could see out the back of their heads--you'd be invisible.

 

So either you're making noise, you're touching them, or you're experiencing some kind of bug. Any chance of posting a video?

 

edit: what kind of AI is this? Does it have a helmet? Does it have its weapon out? You're aware of the rules for blackjacking?

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay#Blackjacking

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Not unless there's some kind of bug at work. AI can only see in the direction they're looking (with some peripheral vision) regardless of the vision setting.

That surprises me a bit because there was an interview with the Tdp developers in a German retro gaming magazine in January, and it had an image explaining the AI vision system in Tdp, and I assumed it would be similar. According to the image, the AI has five distinct conical fields of vision:

 

* A 15 degree cone with a very long range (that projects off the image borders, so I cannot say how long exactly).

* A 32 degree cone with range, say 61 (millimeters on the picture).

* An about 95 degree cone with range 28.

* A 180 degree cone with range 22.

* An about 165 degree cone with range of -7 (i.e. behind the AI). In other words, according to the image the AI is supposed to notice you if you get too close behind it. Well, I think that never worked in the original games, but anyway.

 

Actually, the numbers are not precise because the cones were visualised in an in-game-image; probably they had some option in the engine to colour-code the cones.

 

So either you're making noise, you're touching them, or you're experiencing some kind of bug. Any chance of posting a video?

No, but I'll provide more information later.

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That surprises me a bit because there was an interview with the Tdp developers in a German retro gaming magazine in January, and it had an image explaining the AI vision system in Tdp, and I assumed it would be similar. According to the image, the AI has five distinct conical fields of vision:

 

* A 15 degree cone with a very long range (that projects off the image borders, so I cannot say how long exactly).

* A 32 degree cone with range, say 61 (millimeters on the picture).

* An about 95 degree cone with range 28.

* A 180 degree cone with range 22.

* An about 165 degree cone with range of -7 (i.e. behind the AI). In other words, according to the image the AI is supposed to notice you if you get too close behind it. Well, I think that never worked in the original games, but anyway.

 

Actually, the numbers are not precise because the cones were visualised in an in-game-image; probably they had some option in the engine to colour-code the cones.

 

 

No, but I'll provide more information later.

 

Yep, we're aware of that article. We pretty much read anything we could find early in development.

 

The different cones are activated depending on whether or not the player is within the cone volume. It saved them a few CPU cycles, at a time when every cycle counted. When you have numerous AI in the same scene, an extra cycle could make or break performance.

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I play with hardcore vision setting and I can blackjack easily, it just took some practice. I was even blackjacking guards in WS3 in the sewer and that involved successfully moving in water.

 

AFAIK, vision only represents how the vision works, and not the sounds (footsteps), but I may be wrong.

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