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I'm new to this forum and just came across this post about Islam. I've studied Islamic philosophy on and off for several years now, and I sometimes teach Islamic philosophers such as al-Ghazali in my philosophy courses. I've learned a great deal from them. The same goes for the Koran. Kurshok, you have much to learn. It appears you are yet another victim of U.S. and Israeli propaganda. Read your history, study philosophy, and most of all, take a look in the mirror. Adios.

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For what it's worth... I was in Peace Corps in the 1990s, and lived on a small Pacific Ocean island in Micronesia. In order to survive, the people of Micronesia live very close and very connected

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Allow me to contradict some of you. The push for renewable energy and the reduction of our ecological/carbon footprint is necessary from a geopolitical POV as well. Where does oil and natural gas

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On 8/1/2020 at 11:34 PM, Go Gaza said:

I'm new to this forum and just came across this post about Islam. I've studied Islamic philosophy on and off for several years now, and I sometimes teach Islamic philosophers such as al-Ghazali in my philosophy courses. I've learned a great deal from them. The same goes for the Koran. Kurshok, you have much to learn. It appears you are yet another victim of U.S. and Israeli propaganda. Read your history, study philosophy, and most of all, take a look in the mirror. Adios.

You're full of shit, Go Gaza. I supported Islam for years without taking a look at the Quran or reading history about that sick cunt Muhammad. Then, I actually learned about Islamic practices, history, culture, beliefs, and how you treat atheists, apostates, and pagans. Your cult is fucking disgusting, and I'm glad China is taking the necessary steps to dismantle your cult from their country, and that Israel is purging the fake nation of Palestine, a Jordanian backwater, from existence.

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"I spend years studying Koran and Islamic scholars blah blah blah" You spent years studying a fucked-up book of fairy tales and the nonsense made up by a bloodthirsty, demented monster of a man, a pervert who victimized a child and drank animal urine from the penis. A guy responsible for the first Islamic terrorist attacks, the pig Muhammad. Those "scholars" were trying to twist themselves into knots to squeeze gold out of a lump of shit Quran, a book of slavery, hatred, and murder. I listen to ex-Muslims, who risk their lives to escape Islamic shitholes to be free to believe and practice what they want in the free world, like Ridvan Aydemir and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who face constant harassment and threats from Mohammedan pieces of shit.

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11 hours ago, Kurshok said:

You're full of shit, Go Gaza. I supported Islam for years without taking a look at the Quran or reading history about that sick cunt Muhammad. Then, I actually learned about Islamic practices, history, culture, beliefs, and how you treat atheists, apostates, and pagans. Your cult is fucking disgusting, and I'm glad China is taking the necessary steps to dismantle your cult from their country, and that Israel is purging the fake nation of Palestine, a Jordanian backwater, from existence.

Whoa, there. Calm down. Each religion has its dark past and has (or had) their fanatics, but this definitely should not make you condone mass murder. You are entitled to your opinion, but there definitely is a line. And not all practicioners of Islam are mass murderers, just as not all Christians took part in the crusades. I agree insofar as to say that religious fanatics are idiots that use their religion as an excuse to do horrible thins, but as I said: This does not make each practicioner a horrible person and it does not mean that any regime should persecute and/or kill practicioners of a belief.

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I find this incredibly vulgar. Whatever your views may be, there's no excuse to deliver them with such obscenity. I understand we have lax forum rules that permitted Kurshok to start this thread on equally inflammatory premises, as we rarely come into situations where we need such rules, but at this point any civil space on the web should draw the line.

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@DragoferAgreed.

@Kurshok"Argumenting" in such a way only disqualifies yourself and your opinion. You cannot really expect anyone to take you serious when behaving like that. Although at this point I am not even sure that this plays any role to you. :(

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Fine. I agree that I may be somewhat vulgar in my wording, but the points I make stand. By common standards of the non-Muslim world, Muhammad was a horrible person, and Islamic political maneuvering to try and cover up his behavior or outlaw criticism of his deeds both IRL and online has no place in areas with free speech.

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Okay everybody, I would like to make an apology for some of what I said. Although many of Islam' beliefs are archaic and inhumane, not every muslim is a devout follower of the exact horrible stuff Muhammad came up with. There are multiple sects, and individuals who disagree with the texts. Islam will never destroy democracy, and we shouldn't turn our eyes away from torture of muslims in China due to anger over attacks against us by Middle Eastern muslims. Although China has a right to defend themselves from extremists, they went too far when they began torturing people and killing people in their reeducation camps. I don't support the Chinese Camps, although making it so people have to declare loyalty to the state over their religion has some merit, but torture and murder is wrong.

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I am glad to hear that you showed some sense in this regard. I agree with you, that extremists are to be condemned (regardless of the religion they think they are repesenting), but this does not really have to do with the religion itself, but with the people who take it as an excuse to behave like animals. Btw. secular extremism (which I would call the dictatorship and persecution in China) is no better than religious extremism, but is often times viewed as more rational, even if it isn't.

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On 8/23/2020 at 5:16 PM, Destined said:

I am glad to hear that you showed some sense in this regard. I agree with you, that extremists are to be condemned (regardless of the religion they think they are repesenting), but this does not really have to do with the religion itself, but with the people who take it as an excuse to behave like animals. Btw. secular extremism (which I would call the dictatorship and persecution in China) is no better than religious extremism, but is often times viewed as more rational, even if it isn't.

Well, although I disagree with China murdering and torturing people and forcibly aborting and killing newborns, Islam is still equally evil in my eyes. I just refuse to lower myself to that bastard Muhammad's level. I sympathize with ex-Muslims and victims of Islamic oppression, and I feel that although China goes too far with death camps and slavery and murder, something needs to be done to address the elephant in the room of Islamic political entities pushing for censorship of criticism of Muhammad, who was an evil man.

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On 8/4/2020 at 9:54 AM, Destined said:

Each religion has its dark past and has (or had) their fanatics, but this definitely should not make you condone mass murder. 

Surely not. It's still the religion in whose name the vast amount of terroristic acts are being comitted in the world, it's still the religion in whose name tens of thousands of people cheered on the streets about 9/11, and it's still the religion in whose name dictatorships commit horrible crimes against humanity.

On a positive note, it seems to get better with time. Even seems as if some islamic countries even seek peace with Israel now, even though I'm not sure if that isn't to fight the big player Iran. The different islamic religious groups seems to be hating each other's guts for the most part anyway.

It'll be a long way still.

Edited by chakkman
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1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Surely not. It's still the religion in whose name the vast amount of terroristic acts are being comitted in the world, it's still the religion in whose name tens of thousands of people cheered on the streets about 9/11, and it's still the religion in whose name dictatorships commit horrible crimes against humanity.

On a positive note, it seems to get better with time. Even seems as if some islamic countries even seek peace with Israel now, even though I'm not sure if that isn't to fight the big player Iran. The different islamic religious groups seems to be hating each other's guts for the most part anyway.

It'll be a long way still.

Well, had Christians had the means to do similar things in times they were oppressed, they would probably have done it. Terrorositic acts are a way to intimidate a much larger and powerful foe. Still, I hope (although not truly believe) that someday the various religions will be able to coexist in peace. But as you said it is a common cause to rally people behind one and a way to divide "us" from "them", so it is very unlikely.

Regarding time and different groups of the same belief hating on each other, it is also nothing new. There were whole civil wars and persecutions about, who has the "right" idea of Christianity (Catholics vs Protestants) and even before that who has the right leader as the list of Antipopes shows. The main difference, in my opinion, is that that there are more efficient ways to kill each other than was the case during the crusades. And I am quite glad that the Christian church has evolved far enough to not pursue people of other beliefs, but I am actually not sure what the Catholic church's current opinion on most sciences is, but as far as I know the current pope is relativley liberal (as far as you can be as pope, I suppose). The First Communion of my niece got me to think about my own stance on Cathilicism, but I have not yet found the time to actually inform myself about the church's most current opinions on, well, everything. Maybe I should do that and finally decide if want to stay with it or rather distance myself...

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1 hour ago, Destined said:

Well, had Christians had the means to do similar things in times they were oppressed, they would probably have done it.

You already lost me in the first sentence. Muslims aren't oppressed, and, especially, that's no excuse for walking into a school bus with a suicide vest. 

I don't understand why you argue with Christians now as well. Christians did horrible things, yes. When humanity wasn't civilized.  Which is the big difference. Even with many islamic socities not being civilized, there's still the internet, and influence from the outside. And, even people who are recruited in civilized socities.

There's really no excuse for islamic terror, nor is there a excuse for tens if not hundreds of thousands of people from the common population to cheer and celebrate on the streets when there are terroristic acts which kill thousands of innocent lives, including women and children. That's not civilized, that's barbaric. And I don't know any other religion in modern times which is connected with similar stuff.

It's funny how people always argue that Islam or the Koran doesn't have anything to do with it, or that it's the wrong kind of interpretation of the religion, while noone would ever say that right-wing terror doesn't have anything to do with right-wing mindset. Strange difference in judgment of two things which are obviously born out of the same thing: Ideologies.

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13 hours ago, chakkman said:

You already lost me in the first sentence. Muslims aren't oppressed, and, especially, that's no excuse for walking into a school bus with a suicide vest.

Well, Chinese Muslims may disagree, but I get your point. The problem is, even if they are not oppressed, they are told that they are. And that this is a way (if not the only way) for them to strike back. I don't want to find excuses for terrorist attacks (far from it), but I think that the people cheering are not evil or something like that. They are simply manipulated into thinking that what they are doing is right. In this case religion is the means by which they were manipulated, but this does not make the religion itself bad. It is the people that utilise the reilgion to further their own agenda that are bad. Just as any dictator uses the media and misinformation tot further his.

And regarding civilised vs barbaric: Many Islamic countries are not as civilised as you might think. Hell, even in "modern western" countries, like Spain, there are areas that even do not have running water. So, even though the world in general is pretty advanced, this does not apply to every country. Consequently, some people can depict the rich western people as a common enemy against which they want to rebel.

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17 hours ago, chakkman said:

When humanity wasn't civilized.  Which is the big difference. Even with many islamic socities not being civilized, there's still the internet, and influence from the outside. And, even people who are recruited in civilized socities.

It's easy to forget that humanity isn't a monolithic civilisation.

Have you ever thought about how bizarre it would be to take modern technology like airliners or even battery-powered flashlights back into the stone age? Then you realise that you don't even need time travel for that: there are literally societies living right now who are still in the stone age. Remote tribes in jungles or on islands who are still chucking flint-tipped spears at each other as if the past few millennia simply never happened.

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3 hours ago, Destined said:

I don't want to find excuses for terrorist attacks (far from it), but I think that the people cheering are not evil or something like that. They are simply manipulated into thinking that what they are doing is right.

Killing innocent people in the name of god? Come on. There's no excuse for it. 

It's just shocking that there's so many in the common population of the respective countries which cheer about slaughters. No matter how brainwashed you are, there is absolutely no rational reason to cheer for muder, if you have any humanity left in you. 

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44 minutes ago, chakkman said:

Killing innocent people in the name of god? Come on. There's no excuse for it.

From a rational viewpoint, I totally agree. For me the only reason I could imagine to harm or kill someone is self defense. However, these people do not think rationally. Not saying that they are stupid, they just not consider the murder of infidels a bad thing.

46 minutes ago, chakkman said:

It's just shocking that there's so many in the common population of the respective countries which cheer about slaughters. No matter how brainwashed you are, there is absolutely no rational reason to cheer for muder, if you have any humanity left in you. 

Well, a rather cynical view on history suggests, that cheering for murder is as human as can be. Take a look to Rome, where people were slaughtered in the arena, or the Middle Ages, where the hanging of criminals was a public event that large crowds joined and enjoyed. Or look at a random action movie in modern times. I know the latter is not real, but the enjoyment of violence is and apparently always was. As long as you can view the person getting killed as an enemy, most humans have no problem with condoning and even cheer for violence and murder.

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Saw an interesting documentary the other day which is a bit about this topic, Paradogma. Not about Islam, but about different view points, freedom of speech, etc.

It's the second part of a series of three. The Uncertainty Has Settled (focussing more on various views of climate change) and Return To Eden (focussing on controlling nature and people) are the other parts that are also really worth a look.

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On 9/17/2020 at 6:29 PM, Destined said:

Well, a rather cynical view on history suggests, that cheering for murder is as human as can be. Take a look to Rome, where people were slaughtered in the arena, or the Middle Ages, where the hanging of criminals was a public event that large crowds joined and enjoyed. Or look at a random action movie in modern times. I know the latter is not real, but the enjoyment of violence is and apparently always was. As long as you can view the person getting killed as an enemy, most humans have no problem with condoning and even cheer for violence and murder.

As I wrote, we're not living in the stone age anymore.

Sorry to be a bit provocative, but, basically, what you say is that many islamic societies still live in the stone age. ;) Which is kind of the point of my former posts.

You try to find reasons, excuses. Of course you can do that. You can also try to find excuses and reasons for serial killers like Ted Bundy. Regardless of that he's killed many people, and would have continued to do so if he wouldn't have been executed, no matter how many reasons we think we can find for his killings.

Actually, killing for religious motives is far worse for me. It's absolutely against everything which is written in the bible, in the Koran, in any religious writing that you will find. It shows the problem with many people though: The potential to get radicalized. Very obvious also with the way people can get mobilized by articles in newspapers or stories in the TV news as well.

BTW, it always surprises me how much sympathy some people online express for islamistic terrorists. It's basically the same motives as the nazis which drives them: Extreme religious zealousness. Based on obsolete ideas on morality. They even have the same bogeymen, for the most part.

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You are right, we do not live in the Stone Age anymore. And yes, many islamistic societies live in very poor countries (not really Stone Age, but anyway), so yeah, this is what I was saying. Not theat they are completely undeveloped and barbaric as you made them out, but in many cases not very educated, which makes them easier to manipulate.

And yes, I do try to find reasons (not really excuses, at least not as I see it), because I think of myself as a reasonable person and try to understand how others tick. This is, in my opinion, the only way (if there is one at all) to change people's views. If you simply tell them "What you do is wrong / You are wrong", you would just confirm their view of you as their opponent. This way, it is not possible to have a dialogue. Granted, there are people whom you cannot change, I am very well aware of that, but not every person cheering for murder is a sociopathic murderer himself, so the Ted Bundy comparison is also not really fitting. Killing every murderer (convicted or not) is also not the best solution. I would find it better to study people like that, get to know what is wrong with them and try to find ways to notice similar errors in other people's behaviour as soon as possible to prevent them killing others. This would be far better than finding and killing each mass murderer after he killed a couple of people. I know that this is quite idealistic, but it better than the simple "eye for an eye".

For me killing for religious motives is not worse than killing for any other reason (as said before). Bombing a country and killing its citicens in order to get your hands on natural ressources is just as condemnable as killing people, because they believe in the "wrong" god. This contradicts conventions of civilised countries just as much as killing in the name of religion contradicts the teachings of the books they are based on.
But I agree that it simply boils down to the question of how easily people are radicalised and it is much easier to radicalise people who have a bad life (or think that they have), which applies to people in poor countries easier than richt countries. So, it makes sense that this currently happens much more frequently in poor countries than in rich ones.

Finally, if you think that I have any sympathy for terrorists (regardless of their creed, be it islamistic, far left, far right, communistic, fascistic, you name it), you got me completely wrong. I condemn everything they do! I just try not to throw people who live in the same countries and have the same religion and even (in part) the people condoning what they do into the same pot as the terroists themselves. Nazi Germany is a good example for that: Not everyone who lived there was a hardcore Nazi and bought into the whole racial superiority crap. Some people just wanted to live their lifes and if that meant to cheer on the Führer, when he visited the town, then they did that. It had nothing to do with conviction, but with not standing out and in that way avoid getting problems and lead a normal life.

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I would actually suggest listening to Ridvan Aydemir or David Wood, two prominent ex-Muslims, one atheist and one Christian, who nonetheless are good friends and take turns criticizing the hell out of Islam. The point is that Islam's entire basis is the Quran, which is to be taken literally, despite being Scientifically inaccurate and horrifically abusive towards women, kafir, LGBT, and apostates. Something needs to be done to curb Islamic political power in the world.

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@Destined I respect your opinion, but, I guess we simply have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't really see it as a feasible solution to try to "teach" people who consider people living in the western societies as "non-believers" who have to be taught.

Anyway, there's a big bandwidth, of course, and, not every muslim is a radical (I hope I also made that clear in my posts). The thing is, just, that I don't think you really can split the religion, and the extreme fundamentalistic interpretation. That's all that I want to say. If there is a politically motivated act of terror, it will be linked with the political motivation. If there is a islamistic act of terror, it should be linked to the religion. As simple as that. That doesn't mean that every muslim is a terrorist, it means that there is a potential to radicalize people, just like with any ideology out there. That, combined with the fact that many islamic societies are not on the level of civilization of the western countries yields a violent potential. That's something we should be aware of. And, in the case of countries like the one where I live, there also should be awareness that we import this potential on a daily base.

BTW, and this is my personal opinion: I didn't shed a single tear when bin Laden was finally killed. I considered it a good thing. Especially as you can't catch such people in another way. One less threat for thousands of innocent people in the world. A good day for me, nothing more nothing less. If there's the choice between killing a bad guy, and innocent lives being taken for crazy world views, then the choice is clear for me.

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3 hours ago, chakkman said:

BTW, and this is my personal opinion: I didn't shed a single tear when bin Laden was finally killed. I considered it a good thing. Especially as you can't catch such people in another way. One less threat for thousands of innocent people in the world. A good day for me, nothing more nothing less. If there's the choice between killing a bad guy, and innocent lives being taken for crazy world views, then the choice is clear for me.

I used to think so but then I understood that this strictly a business affair. They created Bin Laden's success. But the mujaheddin were dispensable from the start. Bin Laden probably has 20 more vengeful sons who will be just as good as him if not better. Violence begets violence. Terrorist attacks will and must continue. Nobody can't stop this anymore.

Sadly humanity keeps finding new ways of bringing more misery onto itself. Every new civilization does everything to destroy all evidence of the last one. Regardless if these people wage jihad or seek new petrodollar and gas businesses under the pretense of democracy. Oh there's a dictator in Belarus you say? We are deeply concerned. Thoughts and prayers. Not enough oil and gas to bomb you - too bad. 

They all have blood on their hands.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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It gets worse. A man was arrested at. the historical Speaker's Corner in London for "speaking against Sharia" or something along the lines of criticizing Muhammad and the Quran. Speaker's Corner is a historical place of Freedom of Speech in the world, with many famous people having had speeches there. Now pro-Sharia rats like Mohammad Hijab and Ali Dawah have basically scared the British limp-wrist pussy government into giving up their democratic freedom of speech to appease theocratic loony nutcases into not blowing themselves up or going on stabbing sprees. Something needs to change, people need to be ready to gather en masse and simply shout "FUCK MUHAMMAD! WE WILL NOT GIVE UP OUR FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND BELIEF". Again, not all muslims are terrorists, but they need to get it through their heads that nobody is immune to criticism in democracies with freedom of speech, especially not a man who was a murderer, a torturer, a rapist, a sex slave owner, and a pedophile. 

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On another topic, I do have a moderate muslim friend who is a girl who doesn't wear a veil, whose mother is Christian and who I actually like a lot. I don't see her as a terrorist or a bad person, although I am confused as to why she chooses to stay in Islam and go to Saudi Arabia to visit her Dad's side of the family, but I guess that she's willing to compromise and wear a veil whilst there in order to see her family safely. She said Islam just "made more sense than Christianity" and even if I don't agree, I guess I respect her enough not to push the issue. I guess there really is a movement of moderate Islam being formed in America.

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