Footstep sounds and lock picking

[Melkesideck]

Hello all.

Is there a way to make it so the Ai does not only notice your footstep sounds as there are other Npcs walking by making their footstep sounds.

Seems strange that two or more NPC's walk by and as soon as the PC walk's by, the guards notice your footsteps only.

Also a thief would not wear really noisy footwear at least quieten down the PC's footsteps.

Lockpicking on the other hand is a different story, NPC's should hear your lockpicking and other Npc's on the other side of the door you are picking.

Tried this at home and you can hear the picking attempt on the other side of the door.

 

any suggestions.

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Melkesideck

[AluminumHaste]

This has been part of the core gameplay of the Thief games from the beginning and it never made sense even back then.
To change the soundscape so drastically from the original games was not something we were going to do. Yes it would make more sense for a thief to wear soft soled boots.

And for the lockpicking, I don't disagree, maybe have it audible to AI when you FAIL a pick sequence, but that would make a lot maps a lot harder.
Changing core gameplay like that now is probably not going to happen. If you're looking for more challenge, first make sure to set AI hearing and visual acuity to Hardcore, if you're already there, contrats, you're a master thief

[wesp5]

6 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

And for the lockpicking, I don't disagree, maybe have it audible to AI when you FAIL a pick sequence, but that would make a lot maps a lot harder.

I don't think anybody would be able to hear a lock being picked unless they would be very close standing still and listening, which the guards rarely do.

[thebigh]

Yeah, when I'm wearing sneakers tile floors are actually the quietest. Then carpeted floors, and wood is the loudest. I'm not sure why Garrett and Corbin and all the other master thieves insist on wearing tapdancing shoes wherever they go.

[Zerg Rush]

Worse on metallic grounds. Yes, a thief don't use normally military boots whith metal rivets on the sole, Not good, if you don't have moose arrows in this moment.

[OrbWeaver]

Reducing the player footsteps is not going to happen — not only is this core Thief-like gameplay, but the volume that the player hears is designed to allow the player to determine what surface they are walking on. If the footsteps were too quiet, it would be much harder to tell.

If you want the footsteps to be less noticeable to guards, you can accomplish this by adjusting the AI sensitivity slider (I believe you can still make them "Almost deaf" if you really want to).

Having player footsteps masked by multiple guards walking around is something I would support actually (there is a similar mechanic in Sniper Elite games where ambient sounds mask your gunshots), but would require more AI programming.

[Zerg Rush]

It's not about making the footsteps and lockpicking inaudible, but it might be enough to reduce the sound that it is audible enough for the player. Many times also the sound of opening or closing a door is so loud that it almost echoes in the building.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Zerg Rush

[wesp5]

38 minutes ago, Zerg Rush said:

Many times also the sound of opening or closing a door is so loud that it almost echoes in the building.

Speaking of the sound of opening a door, what annoys me much more is that the exact same sound is used for opening wooden chests! These should be different sounds.

Edited September 7, 2021 by wesp5

[AluminumHaste]

42 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Speaking of the sound of opening a door, what annoys me much more is that the exact same sound is used for opening wooden chests! These should be different sounds.

For sure.. .... Get recording, we're breathlessly awaiting all the door sound submissions.

[thebigh]

Note to self: change door sounds and chest sounds to something different and unique in my next level

[OrbWeaver]

I have noticed that some of the door opening sounds seem way too loud. One problem is that certain double-door prefabs (e.g. cabinets) actually play the same opening sound from both doors simultaneously, making the sound twice as loud as it should be.

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, AluminumHaste said:

For sure.. .... Get recording, we're breathlessly awaiting all the door sound submissions.

There is already a different chest opening sound in the game, but sadly the door one seems to be default and is used by most old missions. Is there no way to change the sound in the core mod?

[AluminumHaste]

Yes their is, the sound shaders can pick from a list of sounds, we do it for things like eating apple and bread, and footsteps I believe. Not entirely sure if that works for doors.

[Gin]

If there is something that needs to be changed with the footsteps, it's the sounds. At the moment they don't properly convey the noise level. A few I can name off the top of my head are: tile sounds quieter than stone, stone sounds like two bricks rubbing against each other, and wading through water sounds like swishing your hand through a filled sink. Tile is definitely the worst of the lot though. If  you compare with Thief, as soon as you hear the slappy tappy tile footstep you know "oh shit, this is loud," while the TDM tile footstep sounds like a dull tap that can even be hard to distinguish from stone sometimes.

[AluminumHaste]

Yes the sounds could use some refreshing, we're breathlessly awaiting some uploads. Please post a link to the sound once you're done recording them!

[Gin]

I'd probably try manipulating the sounds before recording new ones, and I'd attempt to do it myself, but I have no idea where the sound files are stored, and I'd need a list of footsteps showing their noise levels. I'm also no sound designer so if I can't make anything good out of it, I'll probably give up on my end because recording new sounds is out of my reach.

[AluminumHaste]

I would suggest you to start by opening up the dark mod folder, and looking in the root directory. The files labelled tdm_sound_* would probably be a good place to start.

PK4 files are just .ZIP files. You can either set your zip program to open them (this works with 7zip and PowerArchiver) or you can rename them to .zip and open them the normal way.

I have the equipment to do the sound recording myself, but not the time anymore. Working 6 days a week with 3 kids and a (VERY) needy wife means I have almost no time to myself anymore.

[OrbWeaver]

Manipulating already-compressed OGG files is a bad idea since it introduces generation loss (and unfortunately the original uncompressed files were not all retained for subsequent editing).

Although to be honest I really have no idea what you are talking about regarding the footsteps. Both stone and tile sound (to me) very similar to the original Thief stone and tile, and are clearly distinguishable in both tone and volume (although I suppose the tile could be made a bit louder to make it clear that it is a "loud" surface). I have no idea how the stone footsteps sound like "two bricks rubbing against each other" — are we even playing the same game?

I agree that the water sounds are rubbish though; it is clear that these were made by somebody swishing their hand around in a container of water, and do not sound anything like footsteps.

[Zerg Rush]

6 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

For sure.. .... Get recording, we're breathlessly awaiting all the door sound submissions.

As a thief it is only logical to open and close the doors slowly and as quietly as possible and not simply drop them into the lock with a cataclang.
And yes, the sound is common in doors, cabinets, boxes and desks, although this is the least, it is a sound that should be lower than it usually is. Perhaps to add difficulty to a mission, you can add the squeak of rusty hinges on an old door, which forces you to wait before an eventual guard is far enough away.

It is not necessary to record the sound, it is enough simply by listening to the corresponding sound file of any mission.

[Gin]

1 hour ago, OrbWeaver said:

Manipulating already-compressed OGG files is a bad idea since it introduces generation loss (and unfortunately the original uncompressed files were not all retained for subsequent editing).

Although to be honest I really have no idea what you are talking about regarding the footsteps. Both stone and tile sound (to me) very similar to the original Thief stone and tile, and are clearly distinguishable in both tone and volume (although I suppose the tile could be made a bit louder to make it clear that it is a "loud" surface). I have no idea how the stone footsteps sound like "two bricks rubbing against each other" — are we even playing the same game?

I agree that the water sounds are rubbish though; it is clear that these were made by somebody swishing their hand around in a container of water, and do not sound anything like footsteps.

If it really bothers you that they would be edited compressed sound files, then I won't bother.

I could ask you the same question. I have no idea how you could think TDM's stone and tile footsteps sound similar to Thief's at all. Thief's stone footsteps are a softer sound and have less of a strong impact feel than TDM's which is grainy and has a harder impact with no follow through with a sliding sound. Thief's tile footsteps have a higher pitch than TDM's, but also it has a little reverb onto it to give it that "loud echo" feel. It's less about the loudness of the sounds and more about the pitch and reverb that gives the tile the loud feeling it has in Thief. Maybe bricks rubbing together was the wrong word for it, but you can tell when you compare Thief's almost whisper like stone footsteps and TDM's stone stomping that it sounds off.

 

[kano]

2 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

I agree that the water sounds are rubbish though; it is clear that these were made by somebody swishing their hand around in a container of water, and do not sound anything like footsteps.

The funny thing is that the sounds the guards make while walking through puddles of water are perfectly acceptable and natural enough. I wonder why they didn't just use the same ones for the player...

[thebigh]

I suppose there has to be a distinction between shallow water and deeper water. You'd want swishing sounds when the player is wading, and splashing sounds when they're stamping around in puddles.

[OrbWeaver]

9 hours ago, Gin said:

I could ask you the same question. I have no idea how you could think TDM's stone and tile footsteps sound similar to Thief's at all. Thief's stone footsteps are a softer sound and have less of a strong impact feel than TDM's which is grainy and has a harder impact with no follow through with a sliding sound. Thief's tile footsteps have a higher pitch than TDM's, but also it has a little reverb onto it to give it that "loud echo" feel. It's less about the loudness of the sounds and more about the pitch and reverb that gives the tile the loud feeling it has in Thief. Maybe bricks rubbing together was the wrong word for it, but you can tell when you compare Thief's almost whisper like stone footsteps and TDM's stone stomping that it sounds off.

Well you're entitled to your opinion, but I still don't get it. Recording reverb inside a sound effect is an obsolete technique which pre-dates (and conflicts with) reverb generated by the game (EAX, EFX etc), which is why our sound effects do not have their own reverb. I suppose our stone footsteps are indeed a little "clumpier" than Thief's and the tile footsteps are less high-pitched, but it certainly doesn't sound "off" to me.

You're welcome to produce your own versions and then distribute this as a separate PK4 which people can download. I know at least one other forum member has done this in the past. If enough people like the alternatives better than the versions currently in the mod, they could even be integrated by default at some point.

[datiswous]

16 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Yes the sounds could use some refreshing, we're breathlessly awaiting some uploads. Please post a link to the sound once you're done recording them!

Can you recommend a tutorial about sound recording for this purpose?

[roygato]

4 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

I suppose our stone footsteps are indeed a little "clumpier" than Thief's and the tile footsteps are less high-pitched, but it certainly doesn't sound "off" to me.

If anything, the tile sounds in Thief are absurd, it's like you're wearing high-heels. Always bothered me a little bit, even if it's exaggerated for clarity.

Or what do I know, maybe everyone wears boots made out of literal wood, so it's as loud as humanely possible.

Edited September 8, 2021 by roygato