Headshots (and insta-kills by extension)

[datiswous]

They should search for the source (arrow, but they don't know yet) and if they find it go in hiding and say things like: look out somebody is shooting at us!

[wesp5]

12 hours ago, Wallace said:

Headshots need to be a thing even in combat. Shooting a guard in the face should result in immediate death no matter how alerted he is. Allowing non-combat headshots, only for them to be impossible if the same guard is alerted is forcing the games no-combat design philosophy rather than implying it.

That's exactly what I fixed in my patch, the same as I did with blackjacking and magical-alerted-ko-immunity. In my opinion these technical tricks are not needed anymore, compared to Thief, because it is hard enough to headshot a guard rushing towards you or blackjacking somebody who has his sword drawn anyway.

Edited June 28, 2022 by wesp5

[chakkman]

12 hours ago, snatcher said:

I fundamentally agree, @Wallace, and given the inconsistency, head-shots shouldn't exist in this game (in the current form).

Which shows again that your criticism is related to the mission, not to the mod in general. Headshots are consistent in the mod (because they kill any living being, but don't kill the undead), but, obviously, not consistent in missions. 

By the way, thinking about your points, I thought yesterday that a 50-50 chance of arrows breaking when you pull them out of killed enemies heads might be a good idea. I really can't imagine that you can pull arrows out of human heads without breaking them, or not being able to pull them out at all most of the time. Only when they entered through soft tissue, which can happen, of course. But, I'm no expert in that regard obviously.

Edited June 28, 2022 by chakkman

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, chakkman said:

Headshots are consistent in the mod...

They are not dependent on alert state? Then maybe I am misremembering things...

[chakkman]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

They are not dependent on alert state? 

If they are, then that would be weird indeed. I already find blackjacking depending on alert state weird. It doesn't matter how alert you are, if someone beats you with a baseball bat, you will be dizzy or unconscious. Or dead.

[Springheel]

Damage to AI is increased if the AI is not alerted, and this includes headshots.

I think that's a pretty common feature of games involving stealth.  The justification is that an alerted AI will react quicker, perhaps dodging at the last minute to turn an otherwise lethal hit into a glancing blow.

[chakkman]

With their backs turned? (Talking about blackjacking an alerted guard.)

Also, which other stealth games have this kind of alert behavior implemented? I can't think of a single one.

Edited June 28, 2022 by chakkman

[Springheel]

15 minutes ago, chakkman said:

With their backs turned? (Talking about blackjacking an alerted guard.)

Also, which other stealth games have this kind of alert behavior implemented? I can't think of a single one.

 

Yes, you are far more likely to hear and react to someone behind you if you are in a heightened state of alert.

Thief itself had that mechanic, but off the top of my head I can think of 7 Days to Die, and Valheim, for sure, and they're not even primarily stealth games.  Pretty sure Far Cry has stealth damage as well. 

 

[chakkman]

24 minutes ago, Springheel said:

Thief itself had that mechanic

Hm, you're right. Wonder why I never noticed. Probably because I never alert the AI like that.  (It takes a lot in the original Thief's to get the AI to full alert state anyway.)

Edited June 28, 2022 by chakkman

[Gin]

Flash bombs did make alerted guards vulnerable to blackjacks in Thief. I'm not sure if TDM does that or not.

[Obsttorte]

You could blackjack alerted guards in Thief as long as they couldn't see you. However, as they don't spot you when in full darkness, you could take out half a dozen of them quiet easely by jumping to attract them and then blackjacking them while leaned forward once they approached you. Probably not what the devs had in mind

[OrbWeaver]

I heard that the devs actually admitted that was a bug. It did make the game ridiculously easy. The idea of flashbombs is that they are tool for escaping in an emergency, not a method for knocking out dozens of guards in one go.

[wesp5]

16 hours ago, Springheel said:

Yes, you are far more likely to hear and react to someone behind you if you are in a heightened state of alert.

But this is not as it plays out in TDM. They already have better hearing and vision when alerted I assume, but a blackjack hit on the back of the head should do the same damage, as should do an arrow right into the face! They couldn't dodge either of them, or if they could, the game should reflect that and not do some immunity or number magic. And yes, many games do similar things, but I always dislike them! Another typical example is that zoomed shots do more damage than unzoomed ones or headshots are only lethal when zoomed, see Deus Ex...

Edited June 29, 2022 by wesp5

[AluminumHaste]

On 6/27/2022 at 4:43 PM, Gin said:

I think if headshots should be changed in any way, it would be to increase the penalty for missing one. At the moment, hitting or narrowly missing a guard makes them aimlessly search. It would be more interesting to have them search in the direction the arrow came from in those cases.

Even with hardcore AI difficulty, they can't tell what direction they were hit from when I shoot from about 10 feet away.

Usually the player shoots at a guard in a dark area. The only thing the AI knows is that something flew by his head and is now alert.
Arrows move FAST, and in the dark, you won't know where it came from.

If they get hit, then yeah they might know the general direction, but in your case, you're 10 feet away, so you're ALREADY in the guards general search area, so no change is required in that situation.

[AluminumHaste]

32 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

But this is not as it plays out in TDM. They already have better hearing and vision when alerted I assume, but a blackjack hit on the back of the head should do the same damage, as should do an arrow right into the face! They couldn't dodge either of them, or if they could, the game should reflect that and not do some immunity or number magic. And yes, many games do similar things, but I always dislike them! Another typical example is that zoomed shots do more damage than unzoomed ones or headshots are only lethal when zoomed, see Deus Ex...

One of the things that was easily exploited in the thief games was alerting a bunch of guards, and have them chase you into a shadow. You could then KO them by blackjacking them in the back of the head.

Maybe that's realistic, but it trivializes the threat of the guards.

It's a tradeoff of gameplay>realism.

[AluminumHaste]

6 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

You could blackjack alerted guards in Thief as long as they couldn't see you. However, as they don't spot you when in full darkness, you could take out half a dozen of them quiet easely by jumping to attract them and then blackjacking them while leaned forward once they approached you. Probably not what the devs had in mind

You can KO them in full combat in darkness.

EDIT: Apparently not even in full darkness either:

 

[AluminumHaste]

20 hours ago, chakkman said:

With their backs turned? (Talking about blackjacking an alerted guard.)

Also, which other stealth games have this kind of alert behavior implemented? I can't think of a single one.

Uhh the original thief games? Did any of you actually play the games?

It takes 1 overhand sword swing to kill a guard when they are unalerted.
It takes at least 2 overhand sword swings to kill an alert/combat guard.

It takes 1 arrow to the head to kill an unalerted guard.
It takes 4 arrows to the head to kill a combat/alerted guard.

[chakkman]

Yeah, we already had that now.  And, yeah, I actually played the games.

[Obsttorte]

1 hour ago, AluminumHaste said:

Did any of you actually play the games?

Probably ... twenty years ago

I played them one and a half year ago again, but only because I had no internet for some weeks and without that you don't get any modern game installed. At least not if you have bought it.

[Springheel]

Quote

But this is not as it plays out in TDM. They already have better hearing and vision when alerted I assume, but a blackjack hit on the back of the head should do the same damage, as should do an arrow right into the face! They couldn't dodge either of them, or if they could, the game should reflect that and not do some immunity or number magic

I'm not sure what claim you're making--that in real life, someone couldn't dodge at the last second to turn a potentially lethal hit into a nonlethal one, or that TDM AI should have some animation to indicate that this is happening. 

The first one is rather obviously incorrect, so I assume it's the second one.  In which case...ok?  It would be great if every tiny detail of reality were included, but we're talking about a game where AI spin around 360 without lifting their feet off the ground and where arrows disappear after hitting someone. 

 

[AluminumHaste]

Yes, some suspension of disbelief is required, like in any game.

Not sure this point is worth arguing.

 

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, Springheel said:

The first one is rather obviously incorrect, so I assume it's the second one.

Even if the first one is "obviously incorrect", there is no way you can't ever ko somebody alerted for the rest of the mission. But why am I talking? I already changed that in my patch and you will never change it in the core game anyway ;).

Edited June 29, 2022 by wesp5

[chakkman]

2 hours ago, Springheel said:

I'm not sure what claim you're making--that in real life, someone couldn't dodge at the last second to turn a potentially lethal hit into a nonlethal one, or that TDM AI should have some animation to indicate that this is happening. 

I don't think someone can dodge an arrow shot at him from short distance, alert or not. It's just too quickly happening. Same with a blackjack from behind. The moment you hear the draft (if that's what you're suggesting), you're already hit.

I get that TDM wants to do it like Thief, but, I don't think there's really a believable explanation for that AI behavior. Well... there doesn't have to be. It's a game, and, games often have gameplay decisions, which don't have to be realistic.  I don't think being able to turn around 360° when climbing a ladder is that realistic either.

Edited June 29, 2022 by chakkman

[AluminumHaste]

I guess you haven't climbed many ladders then. Letting go of one hand you can basically look all around you, up and down.

Used to paint/clean houses as a teen, never had issues looking all around when I was on a ladder.

[AluminumHaste]

Even out of shape Skallagrim was able to dodge the arrows, when he wasn't trying to cut it with the sword. He even mentions it in the video. He actually deflects a few with his sword at 3:20