Headshots (and insta-kills by extension)

[Obsttorte]

22 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Think you could throw something together for this? It could almost be a helper like the bow attached aimer (which should be on by default), that players could turn off if they don't need it.

 

19 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

Yeah, I guess. I could probably utilize the blackjack animation and restrict it to the first few frames or so. I see that I get a prototype done which we can discuss further.

Thrown together, as you named it, so don't expect too much. But it gives an idea of what I've meant.

[AluminumHaste]

Yup, as a proof of concept works.

[AluminumHaste]

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Harder to KO in which way exactly?

I played the Fiasco at Fauchard Street mission yesterday, and, while I was easily able to knock out the first few helmeted guards, I wasn't at all able to knock out the guy standing in front of the Lendermann estate. I tried everything, side, back, front (although that would alert him immediately). As far as I could tell, he wasn't alerted at all, just guarding the mansion. No luck. I tried it 20 times, and then simply let him stand there.

As far as I'm concerned, TDM blackjacking is a matter of luck in most cases. It doesn't even conform to the general rules stated here: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay#Blackjacking

No, you can't.

No, you can't.

Even after 14 years of playing, the system is just not straight forward.

I made my peace with it by quicksaving a lot (I quicksaved 172 times in that mission), but, satisfiable is something else.

The archery, sword fighting and item handling are excellent in comparison.

I don't know, didn't really have any issues aside from my impatience as usual. AI difficulty set to Hardcore / Hardcore.

 

[Springheel]

7 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

@SpringheelYou are right, both rules you state are simple and logically consistent, but ...

You write about them beeing harder or easier to ko. But that is not the representation in game. This is nothing continuos reaching from un-ko-able to ko-able, but a binary system, in which the ai can either be knocked out or not. So as logical as those rules are, the current system simple isn't based on it.

 

That's incorrect.  TDM has 3 states related to KOing.  Can be KO'd from any direction --> Can be KO'd from behind --> Cannot be KO'd.  Where an AI falls on that spectrum depends on its headgear and its alert state.

 

Quote

Harder to KO in which way exactly?

See above. 

Quote

No, you can't.

Now you're making claims about your personal experience in specific missions.  I can't speak to those.  Mission authors can change the rules and people can think they're executing a KO correctly when they aren't (hitting a low ceiling or getting too close have been common issues in the past).  There also seems to be misconceptions about how the rules actually work. But I've never noticed anything to suggest that the system wasn't working correctly, despite the flaws of the current, physics-based system.

[Wellingtoncrab]

2 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

Thrown together, as you named it, so don't expect too much. But it gives an idea of what I've meant.

Looks quite promising I think! 

[Obsttorte]

2 hours ago, Springheel said:

TDM has 3 states related to KOing.  Can be KO'd from any direction --> Can be KO'd from behind --> Cannot be KO'd.

So it is a trinary system, than

Still, the rules sound way more continuos to me. But maybe it is just my perception or a misconcept of the formulation as a foreigner.

It's like stating that the more throttle you give, the stronger the car accelerates, just to find out that there is only

no throttle-->half throttle-->full throttle.

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

Looks quite promising I think! 

Indeed. But can you make it the other way around, like that the blackjack gets raised and not lowered? I know a lot of shooters where the weapon is lowered in exactly this way to show that you can't attack somebody!

[wesp5]

3 hours ago, Springheel said:

That's incorrect.  TDM has 3 states related to KOing.  Can be KO'd from any direction --> Can be KO'd from behind --> Cannot be KO'd.  Where an AI falls on that spectrum depends on its headgear and its alert state.

Where is this set? Because I am pretty sure "ko_alert_immune" "0" is a binary variable. If this is dependent on wearing a helmet it still is binary regarding to being alerted, only some enemies react differently which is even more confusing,,,

Edited July 2, 2022 by wesp5

[AluminumHaste]

ko_alert_immune would be an override to the system.

[Obsttorte]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

Indeed. But can you make it the other way around, like that the blackjack gets raised and not lowered? I know a lot of shooters where the weapon is lowered in exactly this way to show that you can't attack somebody!

I just reutilized an existing animation (creating modified versions via a text editor, as I haven't found the motivation to learn modeling/animating yet; well, it's been only a decade, so plenty of time left ). I could also use a different one or, if fleshed out, maybe someone with some modeling skills can come up with an animation.

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

Where is this set?

That's handled in the source code.

[AluminumHaste]

Could you use the first few animations from the blackjack attack to raise it up?

[Obsttorte]

1 hour ago, AluminumHaste said:

Could you use the first few animations from the blackjack attack to raise it up?

That's what I've tried first. The issue is that it only contains out of seven frames, of which the first half is barely visible and after that you even get clipping. I will take a look at the equip animation, maybe that's more fitting.

[chakkman]

On 7/2/2022 at 2:49 PM, AluminumHaste said:

I don't know, didn't really have any issues aside from my impatience as usual. AI difficulty set to Hardcore / Hardcore.

 

That's it, the guy at 2:53.

I don't know how you did it. I tried 20 times, and couldn't knock him out, which led me to thinking that he simply can't be kocked out.

I frankly, once again, don't know what I did wrong there. I tried from behind, from the side, more near him, more away from him. The whole shebang.

*shrug*

Watching the video, what you might do differently than me is that you seem to aim for the neck, and swing from further away. I usually aim for the head, as is written in the tutorial in the wiki. I actually thought you'd be too far away when you swung, but, it worked OK.

Edited July 3, 2022 by chakkman

[chakkman]

On 7/2/2022 at 2:58 PM, Springheel said:

That's incorrect.  TDM has 3 states related to KOing.  Can be KO'd from any direction --> Can be KO'd from behind --> Cannot be KO'd.  Where an AI falls on that spectrum depends on its headgear and its alert state.

Is this stated somewhere in the Wiki? It should, because, it's a pretty important information for people like me who wonder why their knockouts don't work.

Also, which AI exactly can only be knocked out from behind? As far as I experienced, all AI can be knocked out from any direction, even the helmeted ones (except for elite guards, which obviously can't be KO'd at all).

[AluminumHaste]

I would need a video of you playing to determine where you're going wrong.

[chakkman]

I think the main thing which is different is the distance, and that you lean forward in the last moment when blackjacking. Do you do that to minimize the risk of the guard hearing your foot steps when you're too close to him? 

[Springheel]

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Is this stated somewhere in the Wiki? It should, because, it's a pretty important information for people like me who wonder why their knockouts don't work.

Yes, it's on the wiki.  You literally quoted it on the previous page.
 

Quote

You can successfully knock out:

1. Unarmed civilian AI from any direction, any time.

2. Bare-headed guards from any direction when relaxed, or from behind when alert and/or their weapon is out.

3. Helmeted guards from behind when relaxed (helmeted guards cannot be knocked out when alert and/or when their weapon is out).

All armed AI are harder to knock out when the AI has drawn a weapon, because they are assumed to be alert and ready for you. Either they have searched for you or been warned by a friend that something is wrong.

 

 

[AluminumHaste]

47 minutes ago, chakkman said:

I think the main thing which is different is the distance, and that you lean forward in the last moment when blackjacking. Do you do that to minimize the risk of the guard hearing your foot steps when you're too close to him? 

Basically yeah.

[chakkman]

48 minutes ago, Springheel said:

Yes, it's on the wiki.  You literally quoted it on the previous page.

I thought you meant that there is a difference between helmeted/unhelmeted guards in terms of being able to knock out from behind/side/front.

Quote

That's incorrect.  TDM has 3 states related to KOing.  Can be KO'd from any direction --> Can be KO'd from behind --> Cannot be KO'd. Where an AI falls on that spectrum depends on its headgear and its alert state.

I guess you mean that it's a combination of headgear and alert state.

Well, it seems like this is indeed a much more complicated topic than with any other weapon in TDM.  My guess is that you guys really wanted to give the blackjackers a penalty, because you obviously considered it to be too easy otherwise. That's the only reason I could imagine for such an ovre complicated system, which surely will put off a lot of people who don't read the Wiki and watch videos on how to knock out a guard.

Edited July 3, 2022 by chakkman

[AluminumHaste]

Or play the training mission.

It's not overly complicated at all.

And if by "a lot" of people you mean a handful out of the 10s of thousands of downloads the mod gets, then that's fine. It's not for everyone that's for sure.,

[Springheel]

There are 2 issues here that should be kept separate.

1.  The in-game experience of the blackjacking system.  It can be frustrating because of issues that are difficult for the player to understand/control.  This includes getting too close the AI, not aiming correctly, or hitting an overhead obstacle--I would bet these 3 account for 99% of complaints.  This issue would be solved by implementing the nonphysical solution that is on the bugtracker.

2.  The design of the blackjacking system.  While there is a bit of a learning curve, I think the system is logically consistent and good for gameplay.

 

This thread has a tendency to conflate issue 1 with issue 2.  I doubt there would be many complaints about #2 if #1 wasn't a problem.

[New Horizon]

21 hours ago, chakkman said:

I thought you meant that there is a difference between helmeted/unhelmeted guards in terms of being able to knock out from behind/side/front.

I guess you mean that it's a combination of headgear and alert state.

Well, it seems like this is indeed a much more complicated topic than with any other weapon in TDM.  My guess is that you guys really wanted to give the blackjackers a penalty, because you obviously considered it to be too easy otherwise. That's the only reason I could imagine for such an ovre complicated system, which surely will put off a lot of people who don't read the Wiki and watch videos on how to knock out a guard.

It's really not that complicated:

No helmet:  The AI can be blackjacked from any direction when not alert, upon alert only from behind.

Helmets:  Only from behind until alerted and after alert can not be blackjacked

[chakkman]

54 minutes ago, New Horizon said:

Helmets:  Only from behind until alerted and after alert can not be blackjacked

I blackjacked helmeted guards from the side.

Actually, for some strange reason, it even works better from the side.

Edited July 4, 2022 by chakkman

[AluminumHaste]

Only from behind....kind of. You can still hit the sweet spot when at the side.

[Oktokolo]

On 7/3/2022 at 6:33 PM, chakkman said:

I usually aim for the head, as is written in the tutorial in the wiki. I actually thought you'd be too far away when you swung, but, it worked OK.

Yeah, the key is to be right at the distance where you would think "nah, thats too far" and aiming just low enough that you get anxious about not hitting the head. After a hundred missions or so it is muscle memory and most often just works. Sometimes it will still fail - but the obligatory quicksave will be muscle memory too, so you can just quickload and repeat.

And you can ignore all the complex alert state stuff - just quickload when someone draws a weapon and blackjack lured guards on their way back to their post or route, not when they are coming towards you (listen for their barks as there seems to be no visual indication for the pre-weapon-draw knockout immunity of helmeted guards).