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lost_soul
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I've had this friend for the past twenty-one years. His name is David. I haven't talked to him much over the past nine years or so. We never got in a fight or anything like that, we just went separate ways. Now I hear his father is about to die from lung cancer. I remember his father well... he is a nice guy.

 

So, I spoke to David's mom the other day. She told me that David called one of his "best friends" when he found out about his father's situation. Apparently this "best friend" replied with the following:

 

"Well, your dad WAS a smoker wasn't he? He did it to himself." That is a pretty terrible thing to say to a friend.

 

I should probably give David a call. It is nice to try and help people when bad things like this happen and I would appreciate it if I were in his place.

 

This whole ordeal makes me wonder even more about what happens to us when we die though. I am not a religious person or anything like that. I do not believe in a "heaven" or a "hell" for the following reason. If I had to spend the rest of eternity doing anything, it would eventually get boring. That is to say, if I could have whatever I wanted or do whatever I wanted forever, it would eventually become "hell". Understand?

 

My personal hope and belief is that when I die, I will just cease to exist. I won't know I'm dead, and I won't be transported to some afterlife to spend an eternity awake and conscious of my surroundings.

 

What do you guys think happens to us when we eventually die?

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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"Well, your dad WAS a smoker wasn't he? He did it to himself." That is a pretty terrible thing to say to a friend.

 

Well , the statement IS the truth: smoking DOES increase the probability of lung cancer and this fact is widely known among the populace. However, some more diplomacy would have been appreciated in this, very sensitive, case. I, however, cannot blame the friend, since I am known to blurt similarily.

 

I should probably give David a call. It is nice to try and help people when bad things like this happen and I would appreciate it if I were in his place.

 

Certainly. Most likely a good move.

 

This whole ordeal makes me wonder even more about what happens to us when we die though. I am not a religious person or anything like that. I do not believe in a "heaven" or a "hell" for the following reason. If I had to spend the rest of eternity doing anything, it would eventually get boring. That is to say, if I could have whatever I wanted or do whatever I wanted forever, it would eventually become "hell". Understand?

 

Yes I understand fully. Humans like change and variation. Anything that gets repeated into eternity will be eventually hell. At least boring as hell.

 

My personal hope and belief is that when I die, I will just cease to exist. I won't know I'm dead, and I won't be transported to some afterlife to spend an eternity awake and conscious of my surroundings.

 

What do you guys think happens to us when we eventually die?

 

I have no hopes or preferences what occurs after death. It is a grand mystery and I think it makes the End a bit more interesting when you cannot fully know what is coming.

 

Death in the scientific light

When death comes all brain activity will cease. The organization of this brain matter makes us really who we are. This is proven by studies on people who have suffered brain damage or alterations: their personalities and behaviors may change. Therefore, when this nerve tissue is gone and destroyed by the lack of oxygen, so are we. At least in our current form. That must be fact: we cannot rise up somewhere else as our "normal" selves.

 

Death and soul?

What cannot be know is whether living beings contain some kind of soul which moves on. Well, at least it must be weightess, odorless, colorless, etc, etc. The lack of any kind of physical properties makes it a bit more difficult to believe in the existance of such entities. However, my approach may be too Newtonian, maybe the soul could be a quantum physical object?

 

Conclusion

At any rate: death means certainly the end of our corporeal form, personality, knowledge and characteristic behavior: the things which make us who we are here. Whether or not there is something else, it cannot possibly be known, but it is very much fun (but useless) to consider the options. Whatever the case is, this mystery makes dying quite interesting and it would be fun to see that I was completely wrong when I wake up in the paradise full of hot angels and chocolate cookies and best wines and endless stream of Fun Things. But if I do wake up, I cannot know anything about who I was previously or what I knew: that data will be utterly lost upon death.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Funny that you mention that. My mother used to smoke like crazy when she worked. Then about eight years ago, she had an aneurysm. It didn't kill her: she is mostly fine now, but she doesn't smoke any more. As a matter of fact, the aneurysm probably extended her life because it took so many months for her to recover that she doesn't care to smoke any more. Hopefully she doesn't end up with cancer.

 

Sadly, I have another friend who I tell to quit smoking, but she doesn't listen. Her dad died about four years ago at a young age due to cancer.

Edited by lost_soul

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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Funny that you mention that. My mother used to smoke like crazy when she worked. Then about eight years ago, she had an aneurysm. It didn't kill her: she is mostly fine now, but she doesn't smoke any more. As a matter of fact, the aneurysm probably extended her life because it took so many months for her to recover that she doesn't care to smoke any more. Hopefully she doesn't end up with cancer.

 

Sadly, I have another friend who I tell to quit smoking, but she doesn't listen. Her dad died about four years ago at a young age due to cancer.

So true, paradoxes of life!

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Well , the statement IS the truth: smoking DOES increase the probability of lung cancer and this fact is widely known among the populace.

 

It does, but not to 100%. People can smoke all their lives and not get lung cancer, whilst others get lung cancer who have never touched a cigarette. So while it is true that smoking is highly likely to have been a factor, it cannot be stated as absolute fact.

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It does, but not to 100%. People can smoke all their lives and not get lung cancer, whilst others get lung cancer who have never touched a cigarette. So while it is true that smoking is highly likely to have been a factor, it cannot be stated as absolute fact.

 

Agreed, but it certainly decreases the pity and surprise factors when a smoker -who has been warned of cancer with every pack he buys- develops cancer. That is why saying that the smoker did it himself is not totally unreasonable. But I agree that the statement should be "he probably did it to himself."

 

But semantics aside, more death-thoughts, please. I find the topic quite interesting. What do You think?

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Sry but I feel no pity for someone who gets cancer and they are a smoker. My mom is a fucking chain smoker man and she hasn't got cancer yet. I think she's been smoking since she's 17 or earlier she got hooked at a young age and she won't quit.

 

I already told her that I won't be there for her when the shit hits the fan cuz she's doing it to herself. If anything does happen to her because of her chain smoking ways she not only screws herself but her family as well if something happens to her.

 

I knew this one guy who had a beautiful wife, house, and car but died to lung cancer. Was a smoker. He also had a nice job I believe.

 

Everyone has their vices at some part of their life, and smoking for some is their vice. For me thankfully I never picked up the habit. I tried it once and it tasted worse than shit so no thanks.

 

I'll tell you who to feel pity for. The kid's that go to St. Jude's hospital everyday diagnosed with cancer. Your friend's dad got to live a full life, more than can be said for millions of people in this planet.

 

Moral of the story, don't smoke, and try not to be around those that do. Also we got too many people in this planet in the future, so if more people die for smoking more power to me.

 

Hate to put it that way but it's true. May he rest in piece wherever he ended up now.

 

Oh and as far as helping people, this is a life lesson I learned in a long time. Never, EVER help anyone if they don't ask for help. Some people are just arrogant or un appreciative of help, or hell they just don't want it.

 

Some people would rather be homeless than get help from others, that's just how people can be.

 

The exception to helping people would be life and death situations.

Edited by Unstoppable
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What do you guys think happens to us when we eventually die?

 

As much as I might prefer it to be otherwise, there's no valid evidence that anything happens to us after we die. Though as Christopher Hitchens says (as another lifelong smoker dying of cancer) "I like surprises."

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I'll never NEVER understand why "return to the soil" is so terrible for so many humans.

 

For me, the terrible thing would be live all my life and cannot grow enough to accept that fact!

An entire life spared escaping in fear from an obvious - sad, but obvious - reality: what a monstruosity! ph34r.gif

 

BTW Christmas is about a birth (God or not is about that), so let's put some spirit in this little life we have! laugh.gif

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Hey LS

 

On a different and maybe inflammatory note and I say this from experience. If the guy wasnt worth the aggro of talking to before now, then just send him a card.

 

In the past I have foolishly got back in contact with people only for the dust to settle and realize they are still an waste of space...

 

just my 2 cents.

Edited by Bikerdude
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If you're truly concerned for him, then talk to him definitely. Like other people have said, the statement that he did it to himself is a little too simple in my opinion. Noone wants to die a slow and agonizing death. Put their families through hell and then leave them. He's probably been sick for a long time, and getting a death sentence might be a terrible thing, but depending on the amount of suffering it might also be a relief. And feeling a relief like that will probably lead to a great amount of guilt. At least the suffering will end, and they have the chance to get their things in order and say their goodbyes. While your friends situation certainly is a sad one, a lot of people lose their loved ones suddenly and unexpectedly without getting the chance to say farewell and get things off their hearts. Though this reality might be incredibly difficult to accept, once you do you might be able to see it as a "blessing". And I don't mean to be an ass when I say that, it's just something to think about.

 

I believe that death means the end of an individual that will exist just once in all eternity. Something unique is gone and will never return. But that does not mean there is not something else to experience beyond. It's just not you in that sense anymore. Once born you will always have existed, but life is breathing and you can't hold your breath forever. You will pass, and when you do you can't come back. Everyone is a unique collage of dna, history, environmental conditionings etc. It can't happen like that again. So we should obviously take better care of eachother despite all our differences, after all once one of us is lost... it is over. An individual soul for each of us is not something I subscribe to, it just clutching at the hope we'll somehow get a second chance. We get those second chances in life, not in death- be sure to take them. But I do believe in a spirital unifying state to return when the time comes.

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

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That statement by the friend was pretty harsh, but true, and what this story is missing are the talks about health and the father's smoking and attitude about it during the friend's visits, etc. There's easily a possibility of anger in the friend at the father for grieving the son, and seeing this coming from who knows how far away. We don't know any of that, if it ever happened. If the best friend had little history regarding the father and is just lacking empathy, that's going to take some working on.

 

For example: I got sick of watching a friend's mother waste away by choice, watching television all day, eating fat-loaded foods while decrying sugar as evil, laying in her chair like 300+ lbs. of soft-serve piled up. And when her diabetes led to neuropathy, and my friend and his father had to heft her out of her low chair, and in and out of the bathroom so she could relieve herself and be bathed, I had no sympathy for her, and mentioned once in awhile in the years before it ever got that bad that the two healthier men needed to do something now to prevent what was sure to come. Hearing my friend tell of her moaning and wishing to die week after week, and how he wished he could escape into alcohol but his own heart couldn't take it, while he and his father did all the physical work to allow her to continue on her path, and only screaming at her as the course of correction, my anger and coldness came to include him, because the sympathy and empathy I had in the first year of this hadn't amounted to anything constructive. Ironically, but not too surprisingly, the father died first two years ago, and she's alive in a home. They lost the house they were in for nearly 40 years, to city planning, and they moved out of state.

 

My father had diabetes and died from all the organ damage at 41 years. And while I understand how hard it is to make major lifestyle changes, especially when it's all boring and bland and takes up a lot of time from what one enjoys and loves to do, it's the only way to not be culpable for the grief and pain to come. I speak, of course, ignoring all the things that can happen to an individual and group in life.

 

 

There may be more to the story, and trying to be the better friend is not a good approach. Be a friend, not competition. Leave the "best friend" out of it. Seriously.

A skunk was badgered--the results were strong.

I hope that something better comes along.

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I don't know what advice to give about your friend because every friendship is different, and if you were close at one time then I can't imagine he would be *upset* at you for expressing concern now. I tend to take the glass-half-full view of friends reconnecting after many years... Once you've lived a while, you begin to realize there are only so many people you can get to know in your short time in life, so it makes you start appreciating the links you've made and gives you motivation to rebuild old bridges. That's the view I take of it. Of course it's happening a lot these days for a lot of people because of Facebook.

 

As for the meaning of death... One metaphysical standard that most religions, philosophies, and science actually *share* is a concept of transcendence. While it's easy for people to say our consciousness is our brain, a lot of people don't think into it farther than that, but the rabbit hole goes much deeper than that. The great insight is that consciousness, and the reality it brings to life, is constituted, something we find ourselves perpetually and inescapably "in"... making both the "outside reality" itself and the cogs and gears that constitute it always *beyond* the life-world we actually find ourselves in. Our world is full of things like trees and dogs and blue sky... nothing like the world of sub-atomic particles moving at near the speed of light and who knows what else below the level of quarks and leptons. And somehow these things also bring to life the light of consciousness itself, but we can't get to that either. We can never reach beyond consciousness to get at reality itself (even the most careful observation never reaches beyond what can be experienced, cf the crisis with string theory; it's a real possibility we never do find out for sure just which reality we're "really" in... There may be no fact of the matter!), but we can catch glimpses of the strange twilight region between reality and consciousness at the boundaries of our experience, the outer edges, for example glitches like our blind spot or certain optical illusions, etc, that reveal a touch-point between our inner world and a transcendent "beyond" world. One of the most important boundaries is of course death itself, the final limit of consciousness when we reflect on what the absolute dissolution between the life-world and its transcendent constitution means. Heidegger went so far as to say reflecting on death is the *essential* boundary that brings to light the ultimate constitution of Being-There altogether; you can't fully grasp being-there in reality until you reflect deeply on the boundary of death as its essential constitution. This and similar kinds of thinking make me think that the real meaning of death is more like a horizon in consciousness itself than a destination, something you can infinitely approach but never arrive. It isn't something that happens "in time" because it defines the boundary of time itself (reminiscent of Big Bang cosmology in that way.) One aspect that gives one pause, though; is that the universe is, after all, a very big place with a lot of time on its hands. Exactly because we can never get "outside" ourselves to see ourselves descend into nothingness or reemerge from it, we're always at the mercy of just finding ourselves in a reality, in an experience, as it happens. If sometime in the vast future (though it could be just a blink from our perspective) we suddenly find experience before ourselves again (is it really still us? what am I anyway? but I can't mistake seeing this before me), or consider the scientific parallel to Nietzsche's eternal recurrence (or recurring or infinite parallel universes) ... All preconceptions fall before an experience itself. Since I really love being conscious, I would of course not complain, depending on just what kind of reality one wakes up to. At any rate, if I had a vote I would ask to be conscious again, or for it to continue somehow.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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That it may be too, but it's also a living reality always before language. I don't think anyone can seriously deny that. The fact you can only talk about it through language, and how close can language get to it, is another one of the interesting things about it -- although of course we experience it even when we're not talking about it all the time, most of the time even; and that's the part you want to focus on, not the words about it anyway. That was actually some of my point. You're always at the mercy of it showing itself as it is, and you can't assume it will be what you presume it should be just by the theory or definition.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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That it may be too, but it's also a living reality always before language. I don't think anyone can seriously deny that. The fact you can only talk about it through language, and how close can language get to it, is another one of the interesting things about it -- although of course we experience it even when we're not talking about it all the time, most of the time even; and that's the part you want to focus on, not the words about it anyway. That was actually some of my point. You're always at the mercy of it showing itself as it is, and you can't assume it will be what you presume it should be just by the theory or definition.

You remind me Einstein talking about Quantum Mechanic reality interpretation laugh.gif

He never NEVER accepted that (I don't think anyone can seriously deny....that the moon is here when you do not observe) 'cause he was a realist.....but maybe he was a realist 'cause such vision is really unsettling for most people: this surely I can't deny, it's unsettling and kind of disturbing! :D

 

 

IMHO the problem is really tought, and every step we take in "consciousness explanation" must be very cautious.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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No, I'm not dogmatic. If there were a good reason to think we don't experience consciousness and everything actually is dark all the time, like there are good reasons for quantum theory, I'd take the argument seriously, sure; even though it's hard to comprehend now (how can one be conscious of the non-existence of consciousness?). But that sentence was really just playing off of Descartes' dictum; even when you're doubting consciousness, the very doubting itself is happening *in* consciousness, so any argument dismissing it is self-defeating at its core. That's why I used language like you can't credibly "deny" having it when you're having it, because even the act of denying or dismissing it is itself part of consciousness -- so it can't be *merely* a definition. It wasn't really so much arrogant confidence in an argument as the argument in itself.

 

That still leaves lots of room open for *what* it is, what its contents are, whether we can report on it reliably, etc. And I'm completely on board with every step needing to be taken very cautiously. I've read a lot of the guys that argue about consciousness for a living ... Husserl, Sartre, Frank Jackson, Ned Block, Dan Dennet, Chalmers, Horwhich, Tye, Carruthers, Millikan, Pinker, Baars, etc, etc (my undergrad degree was philosophy of mind & cognitive science) ... And if there's one underlying theme, you have to be very careful what you can and can't say. But you also have to start somewhere. And starting with the experience itself, the part you can't deny having when you're having it, is one respectable starting place IMO, at least to the extent you stick close to the experience itself.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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After watching my mom die suddenly (5 wks) with cancer 15 years ago and my dad passing 3 years ago I came to the peaceful realization that when someone dies life indeed does go on. During these last 15 years I've had my kids-one born 2 months early with special needs only 2 1/2 weeks after she past. When we both knew she was dieing she and I both wondered how I could do this without her but looking back you just do. As a source of comfort I like to believe that it was her spirit that helped save him that's what my heart says. My head says its just one of those things that can't be explained and when you're dead you're dead.

 

Time passes despite not having our loved ones physical presence and most of us keep up with it whether we realize it or not. I find this somewhat calming as I worry how my kids will be cared for when the time comes for me to be gone. But they'll do just what I did they'll just live their lives as time marches on.

 

Just my opinion.

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I should probably give David a call. It is nice to try and help people when bad things like this happen and I would appreciate it if I were in his place.

 

 

Whether his father deserves your sympathy or not does not matter. Right about now your friend David could probably use a non-judgemental friend as it was his father's choice to smoke not David's. This is still his dad and also someone you seem to care about. Giving him a call does nothing less than letting him know he's not alone.

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This whole ordeal makes me wonder even more about what happens to us when we die though. I am not a religious person or anything like that. I do not believe in a "heaven" or a "hell" for the following reason. If I had to spend the rest of eternity doing anything, it would eventually get boring. That is to say, if I could have whatever I wanted or do whatever I wanted forever, it would eventually become "hell". Understand?

 

My personal hope and belief is that when I die, I will just cease to exist. I won't know I'm dead, and I won't be transported to some afterlife to spend an eternity awake and conscious of my surroundings.

 

What do you guys think happens to us when we eventually die?

 

Random thoughts:

 

The popularity of "The Sims", which was supposedly the most successful gaming franchise ever, along with the odd (IMO) fact that some people maintain an enthusiastic passion for collecting stamps all their lives and and i can only assume some stamp collectors live and die on whether the UPS driver delivers a particular stamp before the weekend, led me to wonder about the possibility of this experience here on earth being sort sort of "game". Or perhaps we use this experience as a way to get grounded. Perhaps we do get horribly bored with all the exiting things we usually do and need a way to take a break. Or, for all I know, perhaps, at the time of invention, this is the pinnacle of our "holo-deck" experience when tallying the net amount of joy for the average person. Although i think this could only be true if starving people around the world were only "bots". Hmm, but maybe they're elite "players" who've are extremely bored with their i-can-have-anything experience....

 

I think "getting bored" was a trait brought about in early evolution to help us tad poles stop starring indefinitely at shinny things. I would guess we needed a mechanism to help us disengage with anything that amazed us, to help keep us focused on not getting eaten, finding food and mating. Making a lot of assumptions, in an afterlife, one might be able to turn this mechanism off. Turning it off might help with the "sitting around for eternity" part. But even without that, i've wondered about what you could do prevent the boredom and not go crazy or anything else we wouldn't desire in a "righter" mind. Well, mediation, for one. Simply suspending your emotions and ego and becoming simply a "quiet observer" is something i think is possible. Letting in enough thought to make decisions about what you want to partake in based on what your sum of experiences have led you to be interested in. You might then add the resulting sum of emotions from those experiences to your overall makeup or keep them off to side in it was a horrible experience.

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One metaphysical standard that most religions, philosophies, and science actually *share* is a concept of transcendence.

 

I think that speaks to the fundamental purpose of ALL religions: to address their believers' fear of death. I remember sitting in the school chapel as a kid listening to a building full of reasonably well-educated adults singing what basically amounts to "No no no, we're not REALLY going to die! That's right, we go to a better place! Er, please?!"

 

It always seemed so pathetic to me really, like a form of childhood make-believe that is somehow continued into adulthood. The best cure for the fear of death is having nothing to lose in the first place.

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If this is a holo deck I think I stepped into the wrong one. I should be on a warm beach with bikini clad models who adore me surrounding me and bringing me endless mia tia's

 

I work with a woman who's 80 year old husband passed away the day before xmas eve. He'd been smoking all his life and was diagnosed with double lung cancer just weeks before. He was a tough old dude and most likely his strength carried him on and he probably had the cancer for quite awhile. He was a great guy, everyone liked him, had a huge family. Sad he had to poison himself to death, but he was from the days when smoking was the norm, nobody thought it was bad, etc...

 

These days everyone knows it is poison, but they do it anyway. But mankind seems bent on poisoning themselves one way or another.

The worst part about it is it's not just a death question (will you die from cancer) but a quality of life question. I almost never get sick (usually just a short cold sometime during the winter) but all the smokers around me are constantly sick, anytime of year. It's not because me immune system is super human, it's because I don't constantly ingest poison. (When I did smoke i would get pretty sick in the winter when the bug was going around)

 

I don't believe in heaven/hell either. Such contradictory terms. Loving God, rathfull (?) God. Christians who believe in the Old Testament, but say that Jews believe in the wrong God... That don't understand there was no Christianity before Christ.

 

Or they say that it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you believe in Jesus you are forgiven.

ie: take care of fellow man, but don't believe = eternal suffering.

or: murder people, rob people, support child labor (aka slavery), believe = eternal salvation.

What kind of hypocrisy is that?

 

They say that animals have no soul, only people do. But what's the difference between humans and animals, opposable thumbs and ability to speak. Animals communicate too, but that doesn't cut it. Dog's know how to let you know they need out to take a shit, but they can't open the door so no soul? They know who you are, etc...

 

 

I've said it before but I think Dogma is just an easy way to control the weak masses. Put the fear of God into the young and you can convice people to do anything (like murder in God's name).

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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