TDM novice campaign invite

[brethren]

Hey all -

 

I'm interested in putting together a small group of novice builders to create a campaign for release by the end of the year. The main thrust of the project would be to share ideas and collaborate as beginners to learn the entire process of creating a mission for TDM from start to finish. At the same time, I'd want the missions to form a cohesive campaign along the lines of a (very mini) T2X.

 

This is NOT an instance of "I have this great idea for a campaign and I need other people to build it for me." This will be a true collaborative group project. I don't even have an overall plot idea for the campaign, beyond the mission I plan to create. It would be a pretty simple setup with one mission per member, and we'd probably set up a forum somewhere to share info.

 

Here's what I'm thinking:

 

Total team: 3-5 people, so an additional 2-4 members besides myself.

Requirements: Just a love for FMs and the willingness to learn how to build them.

Experience: No released TDM missions, other game editing experience OK.

Level sizes: Small to medium, each mission should be no bigger than say The Transaction or Thieves or Fauchard St.

Resources: I'm tempted to go 100% vanilla TDM to keep things simple, but I suppose that's flexible.

Deadline: Release by the end of 2011 (ideally).

 

If interested, send me a PM with a few words on why you'd be interested in joining and maybe an idea or two for the project. I want to gauge overall interest and see how committed people are. Obviously if you're creating a campaign, and the guy who's doing mission 3 out of 5 drops out, you're in trouble.

 

I'm very open to suggestions too, from anyone on the forums on how this project might work more effectively.

 

(Going to cross post this over at TTLG also).

[Sotha]

What a nice idea! I hope you will find people interested in trying.

 

The main problem with this is probably the following:

you want mainly novice mappers for a campaign project which will be greatly damaged if someone drops out. My guess is that novice mappers have the highest probability of dropping out. The very first map is rather steep learning experience. After that first map, I'd say only the sky is the limit.

 

But you may be onto something here: maybe having a bunch of people going through the Beginning will reduce the steepness of the learning? Having the first mission well planned together with a team will help the mission to stay focused and not getting out of control with always new added locations.

 

It is a shame the community is dispersed worldwide: a more local band could have mapping sessions together, which would annihilate the biggest learning difficulties. Maybe mappers could hang in some kind of IRC channel where they could instantly ask their fellows for advice?

 

If this project becomes a reality, maybe it could use an own forum section with access only to the contributors to make administration of the project more easy? A thread for each mission, with progress reports on how the work proceeds and questions for problems.

 

You would also need to build the story with the mapper's collaboration. Maybe even mission locations should be scetched together in the planning phase. The better the initial plan, the more likely the mapper will succeed with his first mission.

 

Good luck!

[Shadowhide]

Experience: No released TDM missions, other game editing experience OK.

but if someone already release mission and wants to help you ?

[Springheel]

I'm interested in putting together a small group of novice builders to create a campaign for release by the end of the year.

 

This timeline is probably highly unrealistic for novice mappers. Seven months might sound like a lot, but it took the TDM team eight months to put together and release our Tears of St. Lucia demo. And that was one map.

 

Don't assume that having more people makes things go faster--it generally doesn't. Five mappers working on 5 maps for a campaign will take much longer than one person working on one map.

 

The main thrust of the project would be to share ideas and collaborate as beginners to learn the entire process of creating a mission for TDM from start to finish.

 

I think this is a great idea, though. Rather than a campaign, why not do some kind of "beginner's workshop"? You start with a tutorial that shows how to build a starting area, step by step, and then everyone gets to design what is outside the starting area in their map. Everyone works together, helping each other, and at the end you've got everyone's unique take on a simple, complete mission. Nobody needs to be held up by anyone else, and if someone drops out it doesn't ruin anything.

 

It would be a great way to learn to map, and could probably be done in two months or so if you keep the area small.

 

I am imagining something like a cross between Melan's Fauchard thread and Fidcal's A to Z mapping guide. Each week, you could have a little tutorial about something--patches, decals, lighting, or whatever, and each participant could post shots of how they're using that in their 'outside' area. With everyone working on the same kinds of things at the same time, it will provide lots of opportunity to share ideas, update the wiki pages, etc.

 

The tutorials could also be collected for future reference, and followed by mappers at a later date. I'd be willing to help with an endeavor like that.

[SiyahParsomen]

Darkmod desperately needs campaigns.

 

good luck!

[Melan]

What an excellent initiative! The best of luck to you!

[Baddcog]

Sounds interesting.

 

You could use steam as a messenger system, real easy to take screens, upload them right through steam and post a link to the group chat. So it's a good way to work together assuming people are working at the same times.

I sub-forum type of thing is a good idea just to keep everyone informed/up to date, all in one place and private.

 

-------------

I guess the hard part would be finding 5 novice mappers that all want to start up/collaborate/be counted on at once.

Usually the contests will draw one or two from the shadows...

 

---------

I'd say the biggest thing is simplicity/planning.

 

1- Make sure the mappers work at a good grid size!!! 8 or 16 for base brushes, all walls, etc... This'll make leaking finding, trouble shooting, visportalling MUCH MUCH easier.

Do all base work first. Ie, mainly walls, doors, textures, portals, lights.

 

Once the missions are completed in a very basic form then move on to a detail phase where you add objects, ai, etc, monster clip...

Only use objects/entities like windows/doorframes/doors where they are needed for player paths/scale. Save all fake doors/windows/statues/ pots/ barrels for detail pass.

 

It's a little more boring this way, but it is quicker. And at least you'd have 5 simple to make structure FM's that could be done easily/quickly. Then if someone drops you at least have a base, and maybe someone more experienced will come in for detailling. (And this is always much better if the base terrain is simple, not sloppy layers of stuff.)

You can even save archways for detail phase. Just use square tunnels, then later someone can go around the whole map cloning arches and retex/size them as needed in one easy swoop.

 

2- Work on a big grid size, see #1, 8-16 (4 at smallest is needed for stairs or something and only for that).

 

3-Make sure the mappers understand how visportalling works BEFORE doing any work. It's really simple and easy to do IF planned for (see grid size for one).

 

4-keep each mission simple on it's own. No special effect. A simple goal structure. No goals that keep popping up, no complicated scripting, conversations, etc...

 

5- city missions should be a few streets, not a huge go everywhere, climb everywhere mission. If a mission is to be a rooftop mission make it that ONLY. ie: player can't get to ground level. This will make 'faking' the city easier and portaling.

 

6- have one person to work on readables/storyline only for the entire campaign so mappers can just map and the story doesn't get all mixed up/botched/confused.

 

7 - keep things spaced out. ie: a city street, only have every other, every third building excessable. It gives you some wiggle room, makes the map feel bigger, is easier to portal than if you make every building enterable.

 

------

And if some experienced mappers want to join in and help don't shun them, but make sure they follow the same guidelines so everything is consistant and they can teach the novices exactly like they are working. No rogue pros!

[Bikerdude]

Experience: No released TDM missions, other game editing experience OK.

but if someone already release mission and wants to help you ?

 

Brethren, SH still considers himself a novice despite the fact he is good with scripting.

[brethren]

Thanks for all the input so far, great stuff.

 

To avoid any future confusion - even though this is a team project and a campaign, it's still very much going to be every man for himself for their mission. In other words, we won't have a person writing a story, and a separate person building architecture. Each person will be responsible for every aspect of their level. Sure, we'll constantly compare notes and get help from each other, but at the end of the day, you're responsible for your own level.

 

So, even for a beginner, asking for a small/medium mission by the end of the year isn't outside the realm of reality, is it?

 

@Shadowhide - the idea is to have everyone participating on the same skill level, and with a released mission under your belt, you'd be way ahead of everyone else.

 

@Springheel - The workshop idea is good, but I think a campaign would draw more interest and commit people on a more serious level, don't you? With a workshop, folks would just come and go with no consequences. As far as the deadline goes, it can always be extended, and I expect these missions won't be at the quality level of St. Lucia. Everything will be much simpler, for beginners. Basic. I'd like to get the campaign out the door, and then everyone can move on to more complicated missions for their next project.

 

One idea I do like though is having a consultant, who wouldn't be involved in any part of the campaign, but would advise on technical matters. They could periodically look over the construction of the levels and make suggestions, etc.

[Springheel]

I think a campaign would draw more interest and commit people on a more serious level, don't you?

 

Campaigns always get a lot of interest at the start. It's what happens after the first month or so that matters. Maintaining interest in a project for three or four months is not easy, let alone seven.

 

I always seem to be the person warning people that things will take longer than they think. I'm bound to be wrong one of these days.

[Fidcal]

I will always offer support, technical or otherwise.

 

As has been said, Rule #1 Keep it simple and not over-ambitious. Yes, be flexible but don't be tempted to keep extending with new 'great ideas'. Rule #2 is the same as Rule #1. And did I mention to keep it simple?

 

If it is a campaign with different levels you need everyone to commit their work regularly to somewhere central. By 'commit' I mean, once they have joined they are working for the team. They can leave any time but their work belongs to the team. The team can take it over and someone else continue it if necessary. If needed, I can provide you with a private folder and unlimited subfolders on my website. All you need is ftp and I can recommend two free ftp programs if you don't already have one. Simple to use, each person uploads his work regularly. Be a good idea if someone else or everyone on the campaign team downloads it as a backup.

 

Once under way, ask greebo to set up a private forum for discussion.

 

Make someone team leader to make final decisions. Everyone agree if no agreement can be reached then the team leader decides. Otherwise you'll go real slow having committee meetings over every little detail. It's better to have a few bad decisions made and push forward than no decisions at all and stagnate.

 

For routine matters the leader should make decisions, announce them, and ask if any objections. Don't ask for opinions unless you really need them. Put the onus on others to object within a short time else if you wait for everyone to agree a decision you may wait a long time. If anyone grumbles a month later you can point to the announcement where they had a chance to object but didn't.

 

Good luck!

[Baddcog]

 

every man for himself for their mission. In other words, we won't have a person writing a story, and a separate person building architecture. Each person will be responsible for every aspect of their level. Sure, we'll constantly compare notes and get help from each other, but at the end of the day, you're responsible for your own level.

 

The main reason I recommend having one person deal with the story is from working with the TDM team. Everyone has their own ideas, and everyone thinks theirs are the best, etc..

This can lead to a lot of divergence, mix ups, complications, etc...

 

So while it's good have have group discussions, someone HAS to step up and be the team leader and give the final yes/no. Especially if you want everything to be cohesive in the campaign.

Probably every single issue in TDM over the years was split 60/40 and if we didn't have 1 person to basically give the final say nothing ever would've gotten done.

Just everyone has to be OK with the fact that discussion is open and welcome but someone has final say and no hard feelings.

 

I'd give a bit of freedom as to the map sure. But have everyone put their ideas in the pot, vote, settle on specifics THEN start working.

If one person says I want to do an undead mission fine. And if someone else wants to do a mansion fine. But if you don't have a strong sense of story/dedicated person for that piecing it all together might be tough.

[Shadowhide]

Brethren, SH still considers himself a novice despite the fact he is good with scripting.

i'm noob

[Melan]

Do all base work first. Ie, mainly walls, doors, textures, portals, lights.

 

Once the missions are completed in a very basic form then move on to a detail phase where you add objects, ai, etc, monster clip...

Only use objects/entities like windows/doorframes/doors where they are needed for player paths/scale. Save all fake doors/windows/statues/ pots/ barrels for detail pass.

 

It's a little more boring this way, but it is quicker.

I would like to contest this specific point. Sure, a build has to fulfil some efficiency criteria, and it is good to rough out at least a simple outline. But building is above all about a fun, creative activity, and doing the detailwork for a locale can be a big part of that. People have different work habits; I, for one, could not complete a map with the stepwise method (which, sure, pro game makers use).

[Baddcog]

I agree, but that is also my major failing. Getting caught up in the details too early...

 

And if someone is learning it really doesn help to have them focus more on the basics first. Learn good habits mapping and you'll crank out maps with greater efficiency.

 

Of course no need to be draconian about it, that wouldn't be fun either.

 

But at least break it down into areas some.

 

ie, build a basic street structure with a few twists, get working vp's in place. Then add some details to the street.

But doing building by building detailing is an easy way to never make much progress, and a very easy way to make vping a difficult/frustrating task.

 

It's also easy to over detail one area, then get to the last area and not have enough entites or something left. Making you go back to the first area and delete stuff to make room for the last parts.

[nbohr1more]

I think it's questionable to have an open invite for "novice only" members. While the TDM mapper community is comparatively large in size to TDS, it's still a far cry from having a large enough subset of novice mappers to gather in great numbers for such a project.

 

If there were and open call for ANY mappers to join a project then it would be more likely to succeed.

 

I think, that this would best be worked-out in a fashion similar to the Community contest.

 

1) Announce the intention of a Campaign Project contest series

2) First have a "best campaign story" contest

3) Then have a "best project plan" contest to determine the best way to organize the mission construction

4) Then have a best version of assigned mission contest

 

For step 4, you would randomly assign missions to all entrants and they would compete as with any traditional contest. The winner would get to have more oversight on the project and editing privileges. If you had enough entrants, you could have duplicate entries and pick the best version of the assigned mission to be in the campaign.

Edited June 2, 2011 by nbohr1more

[demagogue]

I have two things to throw in, (1) something I did on my own that this intersects, and (2) my first reaction on OPs project specifically.

 

(1) This is the place where I announce that I've been actually scripting a campaign over the last few weeks, since I read about the 1.06 campaign functionality, with the idea of it being a catalyst for getting a group together to build something, also not too ambitious, but serves as a primer for Darkmod, introduce the factions, locations and a backstory. And I thought having a story in-hand would give it some direction, whether they decided to go along with that story or not; even if it's just a starting place for discussion. I also wanted to let mappers have a hand in it, esp for the maps themselves. Anyway I was just writing it to write it. We have campaign functionality coming, there was that TTLG discussion, so I thought well why not get something on paper. I wasn't sure how exactly to use it or present it. I just went with it. Edit: Also I was thinking about Badcog's point, and the experience of T2X; if you don't have a story written out as a cohesive set piece, writing by committee after the fact can make it watered down or schizophrenic, and it's almost better to have a story and drop it or rebuild it if it won't work than leave it open or try to do everything in one story... But of course there has to be give & take and it depends on the story and the group. That's obviously the big thing for people to talk about after they look at the script, if anyone is interested in looking at it, what to do with it if anything.

 

Anyway, the base of it is done by now, and I'd been actually debating the last few days how to present it. This thread sort of gives me a way to talk about it before doing it. My thinking is different than this thread because it's more focused on promoting Darkmod, really introducing the world, and having it built efficiently, so having established mappers and some TTLG mappers helps that; but I wouldn't restrict it either. And I was also thinking about running it contest style as NBohr mentioned. (I may have actually gotten that idea from one of his old posts.) Also I think the idea with this novice project is to do it collaboratively from the ground up.

 

Anyway now that we have this thread on the table, I should just go ahead and add that I have a working script now. Would it be a good idea to open up a separate private thread to get some people looking at it too? I don't want to preempt what this thread is trying to do. Also I don't want to just push this on people and would rather have people pick it apart and see if they think it's something good for Darkmod and as a campaign and manageable, and tweak it to make it better (or if people don't want to do anything with it, then I'll know that too.) Or maybe open it up more generally as something like the Campaign contest idea, and then this script is a starting point for discussion. I have a thread OP written that I haven't posted yet, ready to lay out the private-thread idea to hash out the script, but I'm interested in hearing thoughts first before I get to that.

 

..........................................

 

(2) More on topic to the OP's project... When I read it, what I was actually thinking about good for that kind of thing is a Novice Chain Project. (I was one of the leads for TTLG's Chain Project, along with Vlad Midnight; so I know how they work.) But what it might be is a themed Chain Project. In our's, everybody just added random parts they invented. But might be cool, and a learning experience, to have a rough full story, and the mappers chain together parts. Then instead of a full campaign that might get dropped (or might seem overwhelming to novices), have it like 1 - 3 missions, but each is pieced together as a chain project, and the novices are building like a particular section, a city neighborhood, a mansion, a scene, etc. I think something like that would be great for this kind of idea. May generate more interest for novices (knowing they don't have to commit to a full FM, but collaborate with other novices on one; and they may get more out of it, learning-wise.)

[nbohr1more]

Demagogue...

 

Well...

 

I certainly see the bright potential from a Demagogue lead project but, as Baddcog and others have pointed out, the master chefs in the kitchen will all start arguing the menu... Unless a bunch of willing mappers jump in and raise their hands for contribution to contradict me, you will need to legitimize your position over the others via a vote. Or possibly by creating a bunch of rough unfinished maps with enough compelling material to beg for completion.

 

Are you willing to throw your story into a vote contest?

 

An internal vote amongst participants is almost assuredly a course for failure, the unwashed masses will need to step in to break the ties and nullify the sore feelings and ego bruising.

 

I'm sure you are a reasonable person on these concepts but if you are to gain a groundswell, you will need to be anointed somehow.

 

EDIT:

 

I'm sorry.

 

Upon reflection, that was way too pessimistic. If you've got a great concept it might alone be enough to overwhelm any possible dissent or strife.

Edited June 3, 2011 by nbohr1more

[grayman]

Good luck, brethren, to you and your team.

[demagogue]

In case I was ambiguous, I thought potential mappers could look at the script and decide if it's something worth going ahead with first, if it needed work or complete rebuilding, or if they didn't think it would fly. That's why I didn't want to even announce it as a campaign drive yet, and was just thinking of letting people read over the script. I wrote it pretty much for the community.

 

But I'd be fine making the first map or two to get the ball rolling too, show some screenshots. I was thinking about doing that anyway. I know how campaign threads usually play out. I just thought while this thread was up I may as well mention it as something out there. I'm pretty laid back about it. But as I think about it, making the first mission or 2 or 3 might be a good idea in any event. I know from long history how important it is to have something to show.

 

I guess I'll say... I'll think over making the first couple of missions, and come back when I have stuff to show. But if anyone is interested in taking a look at the script in the meantime they can PM me any time, whether considering mapping or contributing to the story or whatever.

[ungoliant]

I'm totally in on this. I've been neglecting my first FM for about 1.5 months now, possibly due to burnout, or real life, but this thread has totally revitalized my vigor and interest in TDM mapping, something small that won't take me another 200 straight hours of mapping to complete, in collusion with others of my rough experience level, towards a general goal of mapping academia and excellence, with the end result being a TDM campaign?! Brilliant!!!

 

I'm positive that this idea is 100% pure win if for absolutely no other reason than the amount of blitz-responses in the first day of this threads creation, and the average length of the posts and amount of thought that went into them. Apparently the concept of this thread is worth time and energy. At the very least it struck a big chord with me. Expect a PM forthwith.

 

BTW my vote is no participants with an official release under the belt. Have you ever been in a class in college that you thought was hard, and there was always that guy that knew the answer to every question, always raised his hand and got the answer right, and snickered at you when you said something stupid that made you want to shut up and not say anything in class discussion ever again? That's why. I want to work with other noobs with fresh perspectives and skill sets, but who don't necessarily have experience and know-how.

[Melan]

I think keeping things "novices only" is key. People grow over time, even over their first project, so no need to worry about starting imperfect. We all are imperfect (well, maybe not Johannes, okay ).

 

On the story, it may be better in this case not to have a tight plot at first. Just get together, pitch in loose concepts like "I would like to build a level with a crypt under a slummy part of the City" or "my idea is for the lair of a small crime boss" and see how they can be tied together. Allow for members who drop out (there are a lot of IRL reasons; I have not been building for a painfully long time because I was either away or working over my weekends ) so don't make the missions extra-dependent on each other. Adapt the story to the levels over multiple iterations; a coherent picture can take some time to emerge from the rough ideas (Disorientation and Return to the City both started with premises that ended up with radical changes, so I have been there).

 

And start building. Worry little, work on architecture and all that stuff.

[fllood]

Good ideas here Breathren & Demagogue!

 

... and good tips and advices from the Darkmod Veterans.

 

My advice about setting up a successful campaign story: Take a close look how the TV-series (with season meta plots) do it! Babylon 5 being a good example.

 

To do so:

 

Create a overall rough arch with the main characters: protagonist, antagonist and a few important interesting personas along the way (like producing the meta arch of a TV seasons). With involved fractions, personas, their distinguished characteristics and motivations being most important in setup advance to starting everyone mapping.

 

This setup should be able to answer following questions:

 

1) How do the main story and characters connect the missions.

2) What are the joining element in every missions of the campaign

3) How do story and characters hold player interest with gradually increasing elements of gameplay tension (see classic Greek drama for example which setup is used in most films stilll today for good reason!).

 

Don't waste time and energy in creating the main arch and characters democratic: have it your part, responsibility and decisions (or one other story director person's). Set it as frame for every participant and the campaign. Be open for advice or changes as the project proceed. Don't be afraid to bend/change stroy parts later for gameplay or tech reasons.

 

With the campaign meta plot being set give mappers the freedom to come up with any theme and sub-story as they want for their own map (like writing and directing a TV episode of a season). The pre-setting to their creativity: integrating the main story cornerstones, fraction(s)/settings and characters that connect the missions. No special mention needed that you obviously won't like having everyone do a manson or were beast level

 

Generally some good questions to ask yourself while scripting a story setup usually are:

 

+ What aspect(s) of the plot might hook player interest immediatly?

+ Want you the objectives to increase with difficulty and/or story progress?

+ Are there map locations that players can relate to and might be especially eager to visit?

+ Should the meta plot have any drastic change / surprise?

+ What obstacles should he deal with and why/who/what should he care about? What are the motivations of the player character? What does he feels about the world and people he must deal with?

+ Should the protagonist be an uncharacterized John Taffer Doe (so that every player can make his own character projections to him) or a person with characteristica being setup.

+ What history that matter does the player character have? How much and in which way do you turn these into gameplay.

+ If the protagonist is no "Taffer Doe": What positive and negative traits do emphasize him?

+ What motivations and characteristica do the antagonist(s) have?

+ What are the player characters connections to the antagonist(s) and the fractions?

+ Should the protagonist change throughout the campaign? In what way? Are these events and decisions interesting and surprising? Are they at the right moment?

+ Should be other interesting characters in the campaign a player would be eager to know about, see, avoid or defeat?

+ Have the main story, places and people within the campaign a good gradually rising tension curve?

+ Have you set up anticipation for a climax or special location during the course of the campaign or map? T3 succeded here very well with Gamal (on meta story level) and The Cradle (on map level).

+ Do you want an exciting first mission bang to draw people in? And an climax finale mission?

 

... and so on. These are some thoughts in the setup Thief (all three) did design and implement really, really well !!

 

Some of these story considerations might be too ambitious / out-of-scale for a Novice campaign of course. But they are very advisable for a campaign focused on promoting the Dark Mod ... like Demagogue's idea.

 

Breathren your idea sound very basic democratic if I don't mistake your posts. A campaign project is in general well adviced having one "Campaign Director" doing the organisation (discussions and dates), keeping things and people focused and having the final say. Ideally (but not necessarily) he/she is also being the main story director. That director's moderation and decisions are very important when things are undecided or when too much time is wasted in detail discussions or coordination - and that will happen very soon in projects scaled like these

 

Hope some of these thoughts will be of help.

 

Keep the enthusiasm guys ...!

Edited June 3, 2011 by fllood

[Jetrell]

I think this is a great idea and hope this project sees the light of day. Best of luck to all who work on this project...

Edited June 3, 2011 by Jetrell

[pusianka]

i'm noob

 

You're not a noob, you just don't beta test... End of story.