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Internationalization (Language) usage in TDM

I18N use in TDM  

28 members have voted

  1. 1. Which language have you set in the menu to play TDM?

    • English
    • German (Deutsch)
    • Russian (Русский)
    • French (Français)
    • Dutch (Nederlands)
      0
    • Other (please state the language in the thread)
      0
  2. 2. Which language should be added or completed for you?

    • None
    • Croatian (Hrvatski)
      0
    • Slovenčina (Slovak)
    • Norse (Norsk)
    • Türkçe (Turkish)
    • Other (Please state it in the thread)
  3. 3. In addition to the menu and HUD, would you like to see more translation(s):

    • No, I can live with the current state
    • I'd like to see more languages in the menu
    • More translated FMs (readables, briefings) would be nice
    • Subtitles for voices
    • Translations for voices (language packs)


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I18N Status:

 

Currently, TDM supports selecting a language in the menu, and also translated FMs. However, the work on translating FMs seems to have stalled, and AFAIK, most FMs are still english-only (so the translated FMs are not available to the average player).

 

In addition, most developers are native English speakers, and hence use only English. OTOH, a lot of players are from other countries, but they might be invisible due to the self-selecting audience on the web and forum, as both forum and website are available in English only.

 

There are, however, large communities, like the Russian players (Добрый день!). These are mostly invisible here, as they have their own forum. Maybe there are other communities we don't even know about? Germans? French? Italian?

 

There are also people who select a different language in the menu, which can be seen if people do not know the proper English name for some settings (hinting that they use a different language in the menu naturally). These people might not even think it is something special that TDM is not English-only :)

 

Poll:

 

So, to gauge how the actual status is and how many people we have in the different languages and what their wishes are, this poll tries to enumerate them. It also asks what you would like to see in the I18N work.

 

Unfortunately, each question is limited to 6 answers only (why oh why?). So, please, if you use (or would use) a different language then in the list, please post it here.

 

It would also be good if somebody could tells us about other communities, and ask there if they would like to participate in the poll.

 

I'm thrilled to found out what we have missed so far :)

 

The goal of this thread:

  1. Find out how many players with native language X we have
  2. Find out how many players currently use which language in the settings menu
  3. Do non-English players want better support for their language, e.g. would they consider using their language if it was (more) supported?
  4. Last but not least: reach out to other communitives in other languages and get their feedback

Edited by Tels
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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I'm german but I play TDM in english. The reason is simple: If I can read everything in german, but all the voices are english, this is quite confusing to me as my mind has to switch between both languages all the time. But I'm in the position of understanding this language relatively good. That's why I also vote for translating the voices, although I know it is very unlikely to happen.

 

I can see however that this is not the point for many other players.

 

An important point Tels mentions and which I think is correct is that we should not evaluate the need for translations from the mixture and english skills of the people who joined the forum. People who hardly understand any english will not join the forum anyways. And even under those who have joined you can find a lot who obviously have there problems with the english language, as you can often see by there posts.

 

What would be a good point, though is to make translating missions easier. Currently everything is done in a text editor counterchecking the results ingame all the time, which is very tiresome. If missions could be translated directly in DR, making use of the readables editor, and if the game would recognize the amount of pages of a readable without the mapper having to specify it (and therefore lock it), we would get more and better translations imho.

 

When translating Flakebridge Monastery the fact that german is often more long then english really drove me nuts, as I had to cut down sentences to make them fit the sizes. This is not good for the motivation of the translator as well as the quality of the translations either.

 

In addition, most developers are native English speakers

Regarding mappers I'm not sure whether this is true. I just think of Melan, Sotha, Fieldmedic, SeriousToni, Nielsen74, ShadowHide and myself. I think the amount of work needed for a translation as mentioned above is the main reason why most mappers do not deliver there mission with at least a translation to their mother tongue.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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I'm german but I play TDM in english. The reason is simple: If I can read everything in german, but all the voices are english, this is quite confusing to me as my mind has to switch between both languages all the time. But I'm in the position of understanding this language relatively good. That's why I also vote for translating the voices, although I know it is very unlikely to happen.

 

This is exactly the kind of feedback I wanted to get, so thank you. :)

 

I can see however that this is not the point for many other players.

 

Yes, that was my point, this shouldn't be interpolated to other people, as their wishes or POV might differ completely. And this poll is to get their opinion, so we need to reach out to the non-native English speakers. (Although this very thread is in English, too :ph34r:

 

What would be a good point, though is to make translating missions easier. Currently everything is done in a text editor counterchecking the results ingame all the time, which is very tiresome. If missions could be translated directly in DR, making use of the readables editor, and if the game would recognize the amount of pages of a readable without the mapper having to specify it (and therefore lock it), we would get more and better translations imho.

 

I agree that this would be nice, but there has be no progress in DR on this since 2011: http://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=2845

 

When translating Flakebridge Monastery the fact that german is often more long then english really drove me nuts, as I had to cut down sentences to make them fit the sizes. This is not good for the motivation of the translator as well as the quality of the translations either.

 

Cutting down might be necessary for briefings, but readables in game can also be expanded by adding more pages for a different language (or at least I remember coding this feature in). You are right, tho, translation from English to other languages is not easy. That is why it is actually important to have a multi-language effort from the start, not just tacked on. Then the mapper/developer will see right away that he need to reserve more space for Russian or German variants.

 

Regarding mappers I'm not sure whether this is true. I just think of Melan, Sotha, Fieldmedic, SeriousToni, Nielsen74, ShadowHide and myself. I think the amount of work needed for a translation as mentioned above is the main reason why most mappers do not deliver there mission with at least a translation to their mother tongue.

 

I wasn't exactly asking for translations of missions, although that surely would be nice to see, afterall, I18N is "my baby" :)

 

We actually DO have a very long list of translaed missions: http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=I18N_Status So it was more about:

 

* making the mission translatable before the release (not just as an afterthought). This is someting mappers need to do (or ask someone to do this for them)

* and more important, making the translations available to players. The wiki shows a huge list of available translated FMs, but the TDM in-game downloader only has a handful missions that have the "translated *" mark and thus most of the existing I18N effort is not available to the average player.

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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@Tels, did you forget abotu this -

 

- http://forums.thedar...sensus-request/

 

Yes and no. This topic is mainly about the players, and what they want and need and wish for. Although developers and mappers can of course also voice their opinion, they still should do from their "player" or "user" point of view, not from the mapper/developer POV.

 

Example: As a TDM developer, I don't want to add Serbian, as this is extra work for me. As the "inventor" of I18N, tho, I'd love to, because I think its great for bringing TDM to others. And as user, I don't need Serbian at all. So I have three different POVs depending on my "role".

 

I've read the thread and I think it's great, but reading it again, I'm still not sure what the result is. Is the other thread just for "has the mapper consented to translation"? Or does it also entail the "the mapper has given consent and the I18N-ready (plus eventual translations) FM is now on the server"?

  • Like 1

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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When I started playing pc games as a teen, my understanding of englilsh was very crude. A lot of information on the internet is in english, as are most games (only the biggest get translated). So, basic understanding of english is probably the most common scenario for TDM communities around the world, I would imagine.

 

To me, that means having the menu translated, with its crucial settings and information, as well as the tutorial mission, would be the minimun and a great help to those starting to understand the game, while struggling with the language. It was common for me to play using a dictionary back in the day, so the more is translated while you are learning the game, the better.

 

I dont think its realistic to expect people to go over the hundreds of voice files in the game, as well as the custom ones inside particular missions, and do voice over work. That would take a lot. Its easier to think of implementing a subtitle system, that would be linked to the original sounds, and could be patched for particular missions. All the rest can be done with a lot of patience and work. You can dissect the mission pk4 file, translate signs and such in a graphic app, you can go over the readables and translate them as well, but you would need to know a bit of DR and repackaging missions.

 

Tels system already allows for several inventory items to be translated automatically when you set the language in the menu.

 

Maybe a step by step article on translating a map would be important, as it is not as easy as it sounds. You cant do it from outside Dark Radiant, as far as I know.

Edited by RPGista
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I've read the thread and I think it's great, but reading it again, I'm still not sure what the result is. Is the other thread just for "has the mapper consented to translation"? Or does it also entail the "the mapper has given consent and the I18N-ready (plus eventual translations) FM is now on the server"?

 

For the most part mappers have consented to everything. I quoted exceptions and everything else that was said/wished in post #2.

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I think subtitles should be a priority now. It would help with things beyond translation, such as custom voice-dialog from hard to

understand accents (etc) in FM's. Though I do have mixed feelings about it since it would also encourage the hearing impaired

community to try the game only to find that our lock-picking system relies on sound cues.


Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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I think subtitles should be a priority now. It would help with things beyond translation, such as custom voice-dialog from hard to

understand accents (etc) in FM's. Though I do have mixed feelings about it since it would also encourage the hearing impaired

community to try the game only to find that our lock-picking system relies on sound cues.

 

But only for some locks, as most locks also have a visual cue. OTOH, AI and other sound propagation would not be visible to hearing-impaired people. But this is one of these questions: Should we add not a feature, just because it is incomplete or not perfect? If we had worked on these principles in the past, we would have no LOD system, no SEED, no smart AI implemented in C++, no I18N, no Mac support and a lot of other things we take for granted now.

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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As a german player I have difficulties to understand the story in many FMs, because my english is not very good and it's annoying to use tools like Google translator. My wish includes more translated FMs. But I fear that sounds a little bit selfish from me.

Edited by PsymH

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I think that we need Romanian as well.


"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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To be short: to have translated menu\HUD is very good, but they are quite identical from game to game so some people can understand them even in English. But in the missions (I'm saying it both as a translator and gamer) it is better to have the game (read: missions) translated. (Especially when a game sometimes uses old English grammar)

 

AFAIK some Russian players don't use Russian menu because it wasn't fully tested and some parts of it do not display correctly. But I can't speak for all.

 

And about me: I'm playing in English because I understand it. But I've also played with some of our translations and tried to be impartial. And I liked it. (I was mostly testing unfinished translations to fix them later but still...)

 

Thank you Tels :)

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To be short: to have translated menu\HUD is very good, but they are quite identical from game to game so some people can understand them even in English. But in the missions (I'm saying it both as a translator and gamer) it is better to have the game (read: missions) translated. (Especially when a game sometimes uses old English grammar)

 

AFAIK some Russian players don't use Russian menu because it wasn't fully tested and some parts of it do not display correctly. But I can't speak for all.

 

And about me: I'm playing in English because I understand it. But I've also played with some of our translations and tried to be impartial. And I liked it. (I was mostly testing unfinished translations to fix them later but still...)

 

Thank you Tels :)

 

You are welcome :) And thank you for your feedback.

 

As for the russian menu: I noticed at least one artefact today (which I believe was not there in v1.08), so could you please file bug reports for them? These issues should be fixed, and are probably easily fixed, too. And I absolutely look forward to see more Russian translations :)

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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For me there is no doubt that TDM would benefit from supporting foreign languages in the long run, and I would certainly love to have FMs available with translations on a regular basis.

 

My Menu is set to my native language German, though I wouldn't need to have it this way. I understand English well enough, in fact so well that I sometimes forget that a text I am reading is in English.

Nevertheless I find it of course more convenient to read something in my mother tongue.

 

Two years ago I translated "Tears of St. Lucia" to German, which was proof-read and improved by 7upman (thanks, man!) to a state where it felt ready to be published. So the text is there, somewhere on my hard drive.

 

But I have to agree with Obsttorte: I found it much too complicated to integrate the translation into the mission. I just did not have the time and patience to work out this cumbersome process, and I didn't knew Dark Radiant at all. It would be a huge benefit if this process could be simplified.

 

As for native voices: I loved the voice work of the german Thief. It was really outstanding (mostly). But I have no illusion that there is any way to get recordings as professional as those for TDM. Though it would definitely be cool.

I did a guard voice set for TDM in English. I certainly could do that in German as well ...

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As I understand there is a group of people doing something for the Russian Localization of some missions.

That is amazing, whoever does that!

 

When it's done, I'll try to make a torrent of the new version (which includes this translation, or at least a reference link to it) in my local Torrent Tracker to highlight your work!

But in the missions (I'm saying it both as a translator and gamer)

Best of luck charisma, and thank you Tels, for giving me the opportunity to help!

I hope we can continue making this an international continuation of that beloved Thief-style gaming we all know and love.

Edited by Anderson
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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Anderson has sent me an almost complete translation of the TDM strings to Romanian :wub: Thank you very much!

 

I've prepared a patch, hopefully this can go into 2.03: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/16511-my-patches-and-contribution/page__view__findpost__p__356373

 

 

The fonts do not yet contain the few new characters from Romanian, but this can be patched later. (A lot of our fonts miss a lot of the special characters, anyway).

  • Like 1

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Anderson has sent me an almost complete translation of the TDM strings to Romanian :wub: Thank you very much!

 

I've prepared a patch, hopefully this can go into 2.03: http://forums.thedar...post__p__356373

 

 

The fonts do not yet contain the few new characters from Romanian, but this can be patched later. (A lot of our fonts miss a lot of the special characters, anyway).

What is there left to translate?


"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Though this would be more appropriate in one of the "offer help" subforums, I have plans to do a thorough write down of errors in the menu and HUD translations into Slovak that are currently present in the game. I am not sure whether the Slovak HUD and menu translation for TDM was machine-made (auto-translated) or not, but there are several glaring errors there. IIRC, when I switched on Slovak, most of the equipment items in a mission's purchasing menu had virtually nonsensical names. So, if no one is against it, I might give this effort a go in the coming weeks and months. Given that I actually work as a professional translator, this kind of topic has me itching. :smile::D Well, this and sound design, for the time being. ;) (I'm sure I'll be gradually able to contribute more, hopefully up to finished FMs one day. :blush:)

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Though this would be more appropriate in one of the "offer help" subforums, I have plans to do a thorough write down of errors in the menu and HUD translations into Slovak that are currently present in the game. I am not sure whether the Slovak HUD and menu translation for TDM was machine-made (auto-translated) or not, but there are several glaring errors there. IIRC, when I switched on Slovak, most of the equipment items in a mission's purchasing menu had virtually nonsensical names. So, if no one is against it, I might give this effort a go in the coming weeks and months. Given that I actually work as a professional translator, this kind of topic has me itching. :smile::D Well, this and sound design, for the time being. ;) (I'm sure I'll be gradually able to contribute more, hopefully up to finished FMs one day. :blush:)

 

Nice. Thanks!

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Though this would be more appropriate in one of the "offer help" subforums, I have plans to do a thorough write down of errors in the menu and HUD translations into Slovak that are currently present in the game. I am not sure whether the Slovak HUD and menu translation for TDM was machine-made (auto-translated) or not, but there are several glaring errors there. IIRC, when I switched on Slovak, most of the equipment items in a mission's purchasing menu had virtually nonsensical names. So, if no one is against it, I might give this effort a go in the coming weeks and months. Given that I actually work as a professional translator, this kind of topic has me itching. :smile::D Well, this and sound design, for the time being. ;) (I'm sure I'll be gradually able to contribute more, hopefully up to finished FMs one day. :blush:)

 

The script reports:

 

Generating slovak.lang...	   done,  47792 bytes, 1228 entries, 1065 ( 86.7%) not yet translated.

 

So I'd say the few entries we have are only a few test strings and are really likely done via an auto-translation :)

 

Help in finishing the slovak translation is really appreciated - it is one of the few languages we are missing :)

  • Like 1

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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It's only my opinion, but i prefer to play in english. There's thing which can't be accurately translated to german, especially in a middle age setting. The british accent on many of the voice actings alone is priceless. :) Most games offer a much better experience in english, as the hired translation studios are often cheap, and so is the quality of the synchronisation. But then, i can understand if people who are not fluently in english (I'm not either, but i understand like 95% of things) would prefer a translation.

Edited by chk772

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I prefer to play in English as well (a matter of habit after all those years playing Thief), but there's a little voice inside my head telling me "Don't be lazy, ya taffer, and put your talents to good use, so that less language-savvy players can have fun as well without being confused.". :laugh::smile:

 

 

The script reports:

 

Generating slovak.lang...	   done,  47792 bytes, 1228 entries, 1065 ( 86.7%) not yet translated.

 

So I'd say the few entries we have are only a few test strings and are really likely done via an auto-translation :)

 

Help in finishing the slovak translation is really appreciated - it is one of the few languages we are missing :)

 

I see. So I was on the right track, then !

 

Well, as I've said, I'll certainly try to help. It's not just TDM. I've also been working on a Slovak translation of the original three games for more than a year now, though in a very on-and-off fashion. TDM at least won't take me as long to translate. And I don't have to worry about subtitle issues (especially in cutscenes) like I'd have to in TDP and TMA. I'm also kind of waiting for all the new developments around NewDark to stabilise first - it would be better if I could use those updates to the tech of the old games to my advantage, if I'm already dabbling in an undertaking of this magnitude. But for now, translating TDM will be a priority.

Edited by Petike the Taffer
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I have completed the translation of Romanian menues, loading screens, HUD, inventory names and other miscellaneous things with help from Tels.

 

After the 2.03 update - the language is present in the game. But currently the letters look wrong - with squares instead of letters specific to this language - ș, ț, â, ă, î.

 

Tels sent me a link to this wiki place, however mentioned that it's hard and complicated. I'd like to ask how to do it and if it's possible to do by myself to later patch it into the game ?

A little confused how it all works as the only links seem to lead to text files.

 

Thus having a completely working and finished translation.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Romanian is done although some issues caused it to be broken in 2.03

 

Here is the link on Google Drive for tdm_base01.pk4 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B82Nuxua9A8DNUdaaTRfRm4yWWs/view?usp=sharing

If possible it would be great to upload it in the next update 2.04 or even apply it as a hotfix to the current 2.03 version of the game.

I basically just deleted the romanian specific characters that caused problems. This is a simplistic translation.

Without Petike The Taffer and Tels this wouldn't have been possible. Thank you!

Edited by Anderson
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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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