Blackjacking. What the hell.

[VanishedOne]

I believe the reason zombies don't go 'dormant' is that there's no way to get an AI out of ragdoll state without it looking weird. People have suggested having zombies that could curl up or something, but then someone with the skill would need to take the time to make the animation.

[wesp5]

 

Some guards might be pushed up to an alert level that now makes them invincible, but not all.

Wasn't there somewhere a summary about the NPCs and their alert levels? Also can this changed easily by some config or def file?

[Springheel]

Huh... why was this done?

 

 

Because revenants are supposed to be rare and frightening. They're the "elite" AI of the undead world. If the player can easily kill them, they're not frightening.

 

In TDM, they're just guards that walk slow and can't be disabled without holy water, mines, or fire arrows

 

 

Zombies can also be killed by swords; it just takes a while.

 

 

TDM is not Thief, so don't expect everything to work exactly the same.

[stumpy]

If you put a sleeping undead in a grave then when they wake up they wander around for a while ( about 90 seconds ), then they will usually go back to sleep in the grave they emerged from, hiding them from looking unnatural, although sleeping zombies/undead don't snore.

 

so if you don't want them to look odd just hide them under a patch of dirt in a monster_clipped bed. as long as you stick there hearing up, they will get up when they hear the player tromping around above them, then go back to bed when they lose interest in the player.

[Cynical]

TDM is not Thief, so don't expect everything to work exactly the same.

 

Sure, but "different" doesn't always imply "not worse".

 

Having actual diversity in the enemy roster is a lot better than "every enemy is basically the same, but some are harder than others". Classic Thief has enemies that light up the shadows but with vastly different behaviors and abilities than human guards. It has zombies that are tough to kill and can see the player in shadows, but are slow and generally inattentive. It has haunts that are difficult to evade, but fragile. It has robots that require very specific circumstances to disable, but are noisey (read: the player has tons of advance warning), and most of which can't even directly hurt the player. It has cameras which frequently can't be disabled at all, but which have blind spots.

 

TDM has human guards that light up shadows. It has zombies that are just guards that can't be killed or disabled as easily. It has "not-haunts" that are just guards that can't be killed or disabled as easily. What it lacks is real variety; everything is just "guard" or "tougher guard", which is less interesting than having different enemies actually function differently.

[Springheel]

What it lacks is real variety; everything is just "guard" or "tougher guard", which is less interesting

 

 

And you're speaking based on your vast knowledge of all the AI TDM has to offer? How many missions have you played?

 

TDM has a "robot" that is noisy (read: the player has tons of advance warning) and which can't even directly hurt the player. It has enemies that light up shadows. It has intelligent enemies that coordinate their search behaviour with each other, and stupid enemies that don't. It has some enemies that are slow and some that are fast. It has enemies that are invisible until light hits them. It has enemies that are heavily armoured and enemies with no armour. It has enemies that are blind but detect the player based on proximity. It has enemies who focus on melee attacks but can switch to missile if needed and enemies that focus on missile attacks but switch to melee if the player gets too close. TDM has ghosts that cannot be physically attacked (and ghosts that can). It has giant spiders and baby ones. It has mages with interesting magical effects. It has cameras. And there are probably other things I've forgotten.

 

If you want to call that "every enemy is basically the same but some are harder than others", you're free to do so.

 

But it's not a very accurate representation of reality.

[wesp5]

It has zombies that are just guards that can't be killed or disabled as easily. It has "not-haunts" that are just guards that can't be killed or disabled as easily.

I can't actually remember the haunts of Thief, but the zombies of TDM are slow and I always outrun them if I can.

[AluminumHaste]

 

Sure, but "different" doesn't always imply "not worse".

 

Having actual diversity in the enemy roster is a lot better than "every enemy is basically the same, but some are harder than others". Classic Thief has enemies that light up the shadows but with vastly different behaviors and abilities than human guards. It has zombies that are tough to kill and can see the player in shadows, but are slow and generally inattentive. It has haunts that are difficult to evade, but fragile. It has robots that require very specific circumstances to disable, but are noisey (read: the player has tons of advance warning), and most of which can't even directly hurt the player. It has cameras which frequently can't be disabled at all, but which have blind spots.

 

TDM has human guards that light up shadows. It has zombies that are just guards that can't be killed or disabled as easily. It has "not-haunts" that are just guards that can't be killed or disabled as easily. What it lacks is real variety; everything is just "guard" or "tougher guard", which is less interesting than having different enemies actually function differently.

 

So what you're saying is basically you want to play Thief. So why are you here.....TTLG is over here

[wesp5]

 

So what you're saying is basically you want to play Thief. So why are you here.....TTLG is over here

Interesting link, I never bothered playing Thief again because TDM just got better. But reading the TDM thread over there someone was annoyed that he couldn't pinch out small lights or break lamps: "Why do I need to waste a water arrow on these tiny light sources when I am standing right next to them??? - Lamps cannot smashed. AFAIK, things made of glass should be very much smashable." !

Edited September 9, 2015 by wesp5

[Cynical]

 

And you're speaking based on your vast knowledge of all the AI TDM has to offer? How many missions have you played?

 

TDM has a "robot" that is noisy (read: the player has tons of advance warning) and which can't even directly hurt the player. It has enemies that light up shadows. It has intelligent enemies that coordinate their search behaviour with each other, and stupid enemies that don't. It has some enemies that are slow and some that are fast. It has enemies that are invisible until light hits them. It has enemies that are heavily armoured and enemies with no armour. It has enemies that are blind but detect the player based on proximity. It has enemies who focus on melee attacks but can switch to missile if needed and enemies that focus on missile attacks but switch to melee if the player gets too close. TDM has ghosts that cannot be physically attacked (and ghosts that can). It has giant spiders and baby ones. It has mages with interesting magical effects. It has cameras. And there are probably other things I've forgotten.

 

If you want to call that "every enemy is basically the same but some are harder than others", you're free to do so.

 

But it's not a very accurate representation of reality.

I've played eight missions, not counting the tutorial. In that time, I've encountered one creature that didn't behave like a human or "a human that can't be blackjacked".

 

If you play the first eight missions of Thief Gold, you run into Zombies, Haunts, Fire Shadows, Buricks, and two varieties of Spiders (and Craymen, but I'm not counting them, because their core behavior more or less falls into the "reskinned human" category). If you play the non-Gold Thief TDP, you don't encounter Fire Shadows in that period of time, but you do encounter Fire Elementals, so it's the same number. Thief 2 is a bit weaker here (one of many reasons it's inferior to the first game), but even there, in the first eight missions you've seen cameras (and you've seen them do a large variety of things upon player detection) and two types of robots (provided that you haven't gone well out of your way specifically to say "hi!" to a few Haunts).

 

So, either:

 

1: The Dark Mod, as currently implemented by the community, has far less variety in challenge design than the classic Thief games, boiling it down to "harder" versions of basic guards

 

or

 

2: I'm playing the wrong levels, in which case, what campaigns should I be playing?

[Sotha]

Your data analysis is flawed. Eight levels of Thief is over 60% of the entire game. Of course you see more variety in that time. It is the majority of what the game has to offer.

 

8 missions of TDM is less than 10% of all missions. And TDM missions are mostly individual missions, not campaigns, so they are thematically more focused.

 

In essence thief 1 humans, zombies, haunts and spiders all work pretty much the same as the TDM equivalents, except TDM AI is better.

 

TDM does not have burrics, but they are essentially ranged attacking guards that look like beasts.

 

To compensate, TDM has many custom AI types created by the mappers: Spring already listed some of them.

 

Play missions by Moonbo. Play the Thomas Porter series. Play the Ulysses series.

[Airship Ballet]

Also IMO the Burricks, Spiders, Ghosts, Apebeasts and Bugbeasts are the weakest part of TDP. I lose any and all interest in that game once every level becomes less about stealth and more about zany monstars. It was necessary to round off the story, but the last few levels are just not about stealth in the same way that the human ones are.

[demagogue]

We have some good variety now, but I'll be really, really happy if/when we get our warebeast working.

Not least because I have a good FM idea that needs him.

[Melan]

We do have too few monster missions, though. That's legitimate criticism. In its development pre- and post-release, the mod's focus has been on humans first, undead second, and the crazy Lewis Carrol-inspired monsters of TDP have not been made because they didn't have a high priority. This was a sensible decision, but yes, there is an unfilled niche there. Personally, I love that niche, and wish more people would be exploring it. There should be more surrealism and otherworldly strangeness in TDM. Damn right.

 

The special AI types Springheel mentioned are great, but they are one-offs limited to specific missions. They aren't found in the core TDM package. Maybe we should ask their authors, and add them if they agree to their inclusion. How about that?

[Airship Ballet]

There should be more surrealism and otherworldly strangeness in TDM. Damn right.

Totally, but so long as it doesn't sacrifice stealth for spooks. Oh, and impossible space too. That's always great fun.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Airship Ballet

[Springheel]

We do have too few monster missions, though. That's legitimate criticism.

It's legitimate only if you assume there should be a lot of monster missions. I'm not sure that's a given in a stealth game. You could also say we have too few daylight missions, or detective missions, or ancient ruin missions.

 

Of course it's always nice to have more variety--new models, new AI, new vocal sets, new mission environments, new tools, etc, etc. But there's a big difference between saying, "I'd love to see X" and, "Your game is flawed because I've played 8 missions and haven't seen X".

[VanishedOne]

We do have too few monster missions, though. That's legitimate criticism. In its development pre- and post-release, the mod's focus has been on humans first, undead second, and the crazy Lewis Carrol-inspired monsters of TDP have not been made because they didn't have a high priority. This was a sensible decision, but yes, there is an unfilled niche there. Personally, I love that niche, and wish more people would be exploring it. There should be more surrealism and otherworldly strangeness in TDM. Damn right.

 

The special AI types Springheel mentioned are great, but they are one-offs limited to specific missions. They aren't found in the core TDM package. Maybe we should ask their authors, and add them if they agree to their inclusion. How about that?

A standardised TDM security camera would be good, but what exists is limited: func_securitycamera doesn't work with the light gem, and from a glance at the .map file it looks as though Breaking Out the Fence uses a trigger_multiple rather than line of sight.

 

We have an invisible atdm:ai_builder_guard_ghost in core that isn't widely reused; instead I can think of three TDM missions with invisible AI of some sort, all detectable in different ways.

[Melan]

It's legitimate only if you assume there should be a lot of monster missions. I'm not sure that's a given in a stealth game.

I certainly do. There should be a lot of monster missions, just like city missions, just like crypt missions. And every monster mission in TDP was a stealth mission.

 

Yes, this has been a hotly debated issue on TTLG, with very passionate sides. But the existence of the debate should tell us that there is a side which enjoys the less mansion-centric side of thieving. (I know, my TDM missions have been mostly humanocentric city maps. This is the fault of myself and the circumstances. But I have had alternate plans since way back in 2009, and I would like to make them reality. )

[Cynical]

In essence thief 1 humans, zombies, haunts and spiders all work pretty much the same as the TDM equivalents, except TDM AI is better.

 

TDM does not have burrics, but they are essentially ranged attacking guards that look like beasts.

 

To compensate, TDM has many custom AI types created by the mappers: Spring already listed some of them.

 

Play missions by Moonbo. Play the Thomas Porter series. Play the Ulysses series.

Zombies and Revenants in TDM don't really work like Zombies and Haunts in Thief 1 at all, though. Thief 1 Zombies have an additional "radius detection" on top of their very low base senses that lets them "see" you in pure black shadows, and their persistence in a chase is very low. Haunts in Thief 1 are actually more fragile and easier to kill than regular guards are, with half the HP of a Hammerite, no resistances at all, and lots of weird vulnerabilities that make them easier to kill (thank the Builder that this is the case, since you have to kill about a dozen of them in Return to the Cathedral -- an objective that would be frustrating to the point of 100% unbearable in TDM).

 

Buricks, likewise, have very different detection rules than humans do, although I guess it's easy to miss that, since most people just slaughter them.

Also IMO the Burricks, Spiders, Ghosts, Apebeasts and Bugbeasts are the weakest part of TDP. I lose any and all interest in that game once every level becomes less about stealth and more about zany monstars. It was necessary to round off the story, but the last few levels are just not about stealth in the same way that the human ones are.

I could not disagree more. Escape! is by far my favorite mission in Thief 1.

Of course it's always nice to have more variety--new models, new AI, new vocal sets, new mission environments, new tools, etc, etc. But there's a big difference between saying, "I'd love to see X" and, "Your game is flawed because I've played 8 missions and haven't seen X".

That the undead, particularly Revenants, behave roughly like human guard re-skins is a major flaw.

 

The Shadow enemies in TP06 do a better job at filling the role of Zombies in Thief 1 than TDM's Zombies do.

 

EDIT: How do you attribute quotes to the right people on this forum? I used tags and copy/paste to get AirshipBallet's and Springheel's quotes here, but the [q uote=person] formatting didn't seem to take correctly, and now the quotes are showing as images in the post, so I can't even try to correct this by changing the code.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Cynical

[VanishedOne]

Thief 1 Zombies have an additional "radius detection" on top of their very low base senses that lets them "see" you in pure black shadows

According to http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/14543-ai-entering-combat-state/page-2?do=findComment&comment=307038as of March 2013 TDM zombies were using only non-visual detection.

[Cynical]

Read again -- they can identify the player visually, just not anything else.

[wesp5]

EDIT: How do you attribute quotes to the right people on this forum?

Good question! This board has a very strange quoting system. Is there a way to use the common html way?

Edited September 11, 2015 by wesp5

[Destined]

EDIT: How do you attribute quotes to the right people on this forum? I used tags and copy/paste to get AirshipBallet's and Springheel's quotes here, but the [q uote=person] formatting didn't seem to take correctly, and now the quotes are showing as images in the post, so I can't even try to correct this by changing the code.

 

You just hit "quote" under the post you want to quote and this inserts the post (with person who wrote it and when) at the current postition in your text. So, if I would hit it again, while writing here, it would appear below the text I am writing right now.

[wesp5]

 

You just hit "quote" under the post you want to quote and this inserts the post (with person who wrote it and when) at the current postition in your text. So, if I would hit it again, while writing here, it would appear below the text I am writing right now.

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Now how can I avoid that editing the quoted text suddenly removes the quotation setup?

[Destined]

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Now how can I avoid that editing the quoted text suddenly removes the quotation setup?

 

Not deleting the quotation setup. I.e. not pressing "backspace", when you're in front of the first character of the quote. Apart of that I did not find any method to delete it at all.