[Resolved] Allow player choice of "Put away weapons" behavior

[Daft Mugi]

In Thief, I have the habit of double tapping "clear weapon" just to make sure I am less visible, such as when a guard is approaching. Otherwise, I tap it once.

In TDM, that doesn't work well, because "put away weapons" will either holster the weapon or equip the last used weapon. I often accidentally make myself more visible at a precarious moment.

The current TDM behavior was introduced in 2.03. Before that, the original TDM behavior was the same as the Thief "clear weapon" behavior.
See https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=3747

I think other Thief players would like an option to use the original TDM behavior, which is to only holster the weapon.

I have attached a patch that adds the following:

"tdm_holster_weapon_behavior" default:"1"
Which 'put away weapons' behavior?
  0 --- only holster weapon (TDM original)
  1 --- holster weapon or equip last used weapon when holstered (TDM 2.03+)

Bug: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6232

Edit

Finalized version as of TDM 2.11 beta 7. This feature is included in TDM 2.11 beta 7 and above.
(To be clear, the patch included in this post is no longer necessary, since TDM already includes the functionality.)

"tdm_toggle_sheathe" default:"0"                                                                  
Which 'put away weapons' behavior?                                                                       
  0 --- only sheathe weapon (TDM original)                                                               
  1 --- toggle between sheathing and equipping weapon (TDM 2.03-2.10)   

Menu

In the "Settings->Weapons" menu, renamed "Put away Weapons" to "Sheathe Weapon".

In the "Settings->General" menu, added "Toggle Sheathe" that can be set to "Disabled" or "Enabled".
The default is "Disabled", so new players have original TDM defaults (also Thief defaults).

r10247-tdm_holster_weapon_behavior-v4.diff

Edited January 23, 2023 by Daft Mugi
resolved

[Daft Mugi]

@stgatilov Could you please take a look at this?

It would be nice to get this in during the 2.11 beta, because I plan to include it in a "getting started with TDM for Thief players" guide I'm writing.

[stgatilov]

This was done in 2.03, and immediately caused a private discussion about whether it makes sense or not:

I wonder if and why @wesp5 thinks toggling weapon is better than putting away.

The thread also says that perhaps this change was discussed/requested by more people, but that's pretty vague.

So yeah, cvar is not a problem, it's just that nobody will know about it.
Unless someone publishes a "NewDark compatibility cvar list"

[wesp5]

24 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

Spoiler

 

I wonder if and why @wesp5 thinks toggling weapon is better than putting away.

Honestly, I can't remember. Probably because this is like it works in other games I play :)!

Edited January 16, 2023 by wesp5

[stgatilov]

1 minute ago, wesp5 said:

Probably because this is like it works in other games I play :)!

Well... I suppose everyone would agree that the other games you play should be Thief TDP, TMA, and TDS

I wonder if someone has strong feeling about either way.
To me personally, it does not matter, but I would probably lean more on "sheathe only" side.

[AluminumHaste]

Same, not expecting "holster weapon" to draw the weapon.

[SeriousToni]

Yep, separate key for "holster weapon" is better IMHO since you can safely put away everything deadly on your hands with one button instead of trying to remember the key for the arrow you euqiped to make it go away again. Always hated that behavior since it resulted in a switch of arrow type instead of putting away that bow.

[nbohr1more]

I think it's a good idea to offer this feature.

On a related note, I tried to configure parry for an alternate key since clicking middle mouse is too close to mouse scrolling

and can lead to accidentally holstering the weapon during combat.

The GUI selection only allowed me to "add" parry but not remove the mouse button. Not the worst issue but certainly annoying.

[stgatilov]

Separate hotkey for "holster" is rather undesirable: there are already too many keys used.

 

[Guest]

FYI other games do holstering weapon by holding down the Use button for like 1,5 sec, and draw weapon is pressing the Attack button. No need for dedicated keys.

[AluminumHaste]

Don't know why people can't press the dedicated key for weapon. Why all the complicated rigamaroll?

[Shadow]

Sometimes a guard is coming quick and you are barely out of the light, and pressing the wrong thing exposes you. I can see the need for a change, but it's certainly not a deal breaker for playing TDM or anything.

[Daft Mugi]

Thank you everyone for your feedback!

After reading the comments, my understanding is:

1. The default behavior should be reverted back to the original TDM (and Thief) behavior.
2. A cvar is needed, because some players want that binding to also equip the last used weapon.
3. Some players could care less.

So, I have a different opinion now:

1. Revert back to the original TDM (and Thief) behavior and add a cvar.
2. Use different wording than "holster" and "put away weapons". "Holster" usually refers to a gun. "Put away weapons" word length makes it challenging to put an additional setting in the menu. "Sheathe" or another word would be more fitting in both meaning (for a bow and sword) and word length.

How it might be implemented:

In the "Settings->Weapons" menu, rename "Put away Weapons" to "Sheathe Weapon".

In the "Settings->General" menu, add "Sheathe Action" that can be set to "Only Sheathe" or "Sheathe / Equip".
The default would be "Only Sheathe", so new players would have Thief defaults.

The cvar would be the following:

"tdm_sheathe_weapon_action" default:"0"
Which 'sheathe weapon' action?
  0 --- only sheathe weapon
  1 --- sheathe weapon or equip last used weapon when sheathed

(Attached screenshot examples.)

Conclusion

Well, since I originally proposed this cvar, I wanted to make my changed opinion known. That's about it.

I imagine hashing out the implementation details and exact wording for this cvar and settings menu would be best done elsewhere -- perhaps another internal/private discussion.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Daft Mugi

[stgatilov]

I'll probably change "Sheathe / Equip" to just "Toggle".

Other than that, I have moved the thread to a more popular subforum to get more attention.

[STiFU]

I don't have strong feelings about this. I simply don't use the toggle-feature of "holster" right now, as I only every press the button once.

However, I don't understand why one would double tap holster in the first place, @Daft Mugi?  

[Daft Mugi]

7 hours ago, STiFU said:

However, I don't understand why one would double tap holster in the first place, @Daft Mugi?  

The main scenario is when a guard suddenly enters the area. Let's say you are about to shoot a rope arrow and a guard opens the door. Having the bow out makes you more visible, so you better make sure it is sheathed as soon as possible. There's that moment of panic or need for haste. The sheathe key is pressed once on purpose, twice on purpose to make sure, or twice by mistake. Pressing it twice by mistake and the bow being equipped again would alert the guard.

I played TDM for days using the "put away weapons" key without issue, because I was pressing it once. Then, a scenario similar to the one above happened: a guard suddenly entered the room, I pressed "put away weapons" key twice, and the guard saw me because my bow was pulled out again.

Does that make sense?

[Daft Mugi]

On 1/18/2023 at 3:00 AM, stgatilov said:

I'll probably change "Sheathe / Equip" to just "Toggle".

Why not "Sheathe / Equip"?

[stgatilov]

1 hour ago, Daft Mugi said:

I played TDM for days using the "put away weapons" key without issue, because I was pressing it once. Then, a scenario similar to the one above happened: a guard suddenly entered the room, I pressed "put away weapons" key twice, and the guard saw me because my bow was pulled out again.

Now imagine that guard has turned his back to you, so you want to quickly take your weapon again and hit him.
The risk of mistake on urgent weapon removal is on one side, and the urgent need to use the weapon is on the other side.

As for Sheathe / Equip, it's just too long for a possible value.
Now imagine some other languages, where the words are in general longer than in English...

[Daft Mugi]

1 hour ago, stgatilov said:

Now imagine that guard has turned his back to you, so you want to quickly take your weapon again and hit him.
The risk of mistake on urgent weapon removal is on one side, and the urgent need to use the weapon is on the other side.

That's a fine approach as well for players who want that.

1 hour ago, stgatilov said:

As for Sheathe / Equip, it's just too long for a possible value.
Now imagine some other languages, where the words are in general longer than in English...

I chose "Only Sheathe" and "Sheathe / Equip" to make it clear what the meaning is, and its length is about the same as the mouse sensitivity slider.
I find "Toggle" to be too ambiguous in meaning in this context. Toggle between what?
Is there another choice of words instead of "Sheathe / Equip" and "Toggle"?

The translation of "Sheathe / Equip" does not need to exactly match the English, right?
Just the same general meaning needs to be conveyed.
For example, "Put away weapons" has already been translated as "Sheathe" in another language, which is not an exact word-for-word translation.
The translator can choose fitting words, yeah?

Brainstorming.
Maybe instead of "Sheathe Action", it could be "Toggle Weapon->Disabled,Enabled".
But still, I think that it is less clear from a usability point of view than "Sheathe Action->Only Sheathe,Sheathe / Equip", because it's not clear that "Toggle Weapon" is attached to the "Sheathe Weapon" action.
Edit: "Toggle Sheathe->Disabled,Enabled", perhaps?

Whatever is chosen. The cvar name ought to match as well.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Daft Mugi

[stgatilov]

We try to not use too many words in main menu, but from recently there are tooltips.
It is possible to write some more explanations in the tooltip.

I really don't like a setting which switches between A and B/C.
The B/C is a bit confusing regarding whether it is a single value or some kind of subchoice or whatever.

[stgatilov]

I think something like "Sheathe Toggle": Enabled/Disabled is the best, as long as the key is renamed from Put Away Weapons to Sheathe Weapon. More details explanation can be given in tooltip.

[wesp5]

So is this all just speculation, or is this planned to be added to 2.11?

[Daft Mugi]

14 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

So is this all just speculation, or is this planned to be added to 2.11?

2.11. Patch already applied.

[Daft Mugi]

Finalized version as of 2.11 beta 7.

"tdm_toggle_sheathe" default:"0"                                                                  
Which 'put away weapons' behavior?                                                                       
  0 --- only sheathe weapon (TDM original)                                                               
  1 --- toggle between sheathing and equipping weapon (TDM 2.03-2.10)   

Menu

In the "Settings->Weapons" menu, renamed "Put away Weapons" to "Sheathe Weapon".

In the "Settings->General" menu, added "Toggle Sheathe" that can be set to "Disabled" or "Enabled".
The default is "Disabled", so new players have original TDM defaults (also Thief defaults).

[wesp5]

16 hours ago, Daft Mugi said:

Finalized version as of 2.11 beta 7.

Menu

In the "Settings->Weapons" menu, renamed "Put away Weapons" to "Sheathe Weapon".

In the "Settings->General" menu, added "Toggle Sheathe" that can be set to "Disabled" or "Enabled".
The default is "Disabled", so new players have original TDM defaults (also Thief defaults).

Okay, so this is your personal patch, but why can't it be added into the beta itself? Or will this happen as well?