[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

[stgatilov]

2 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

I like your idea, but I have not bound Frob to the mouse, so you mean single frob vs double frob, yes?

Yes, custom keys works the same.

[Wellingtoncrab]

14 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

It feels uncomfortable that two entirely different actions are done depending on how long I hold the button.
This is not even a widespread UI design.

It’s incredibly common in controller mapping - to the point even the game’s current controller implementation supports it. Not sure if switching this to a double click is additive or subtractive.

What is getting lost is the primary interaction with a body imo is actually to shoulder it - not drag it. Obfuscating this behind a second input is clunky and confusing to new players. What is “intuitive” is a matter of perspective, but the current patched method of the initial click shouldering a body makes a lot more sense to me and actually addresses some of the complaints from new players as laid out in the initial post.

There is a method via the delay cvar for experienced players who prefer the old system to restore it, so I am uncertain what the down side is really?

[stgatilov]

25 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

There is a method via the delay cvar for experienced players who prefer the old system to restore it, so I am uncertain what the down side is really?

I don't pay attention to this argument, sorry.

Quote

What is getting lost is the primary interaction with a body imo is actually to shoulder it - not drag it. Obfuscating this behind a second input is clunky and confusing to new players.

I can agree that grabbing bodies has little gameplay utility and is something like an engine show-off. But situation with candles is different: both grabbing and extinguishing are useful. Click vs Long click, irreversibly extinguishing candles accidentally, eternal arguments about exact duration --- this confusion is removed with double-click.

And new players have equally low chance to discover double-click and long click, unless it is explained somewhere.

UPDATE: And the double-click approach does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for the second part of double-click.

[Wellingtoncrab]

49 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

I don't pay attention to this argument, sorry.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but this seems to have been the position on other accessibility features not needing to be forward for existing players in places like the main menu as long as they are addressable by cvar? 

51 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

And new players have equally low chance to discover double-click and long click, unless it is explained somewhere.

But they will at a minimum be able to move a body right away without sinking hours into the game thinking they can only drag them around.

As far as the merits of double click vs long press it sounds like it is worth testing, but can’t say without feeling it out. Long press has been working fine on my end.

[Daft Mugi]

2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

But situation with candles is different: both grabbing and extinguishing are useful. Click vs Long click, irreversibly extinguishing candles accidentally, eternal arguments about exact duration --- this confusion is removed with double-click.

The "external argument about exact duration" is not removed with double click. There is a setting in OS preferences for setting double-click speed, is there not? The challenge of setting the exact duration is the same for both long-press and double-click frob. Therefore, the confusion is not removed with double click.

I tuned the long-press frob to be somewhere between "unintentional long-press frob" and "it being too sluggish."

Early player feedback guided the current default value of 200ms -- it was originally 300ms. During more play testing, if players are having trouble, the default can be increased and tested. We need to follow the data from actual play testing. The player can adjust the tdm_frobhold_delay cvar to their liking as well.

2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

And new players have equally low chance to discover double-click and long click, unless it is explained somewhere.

It's more likely that a player will hold frob while moving an item, because for most items, nothing different or bad happens. It's less likely that a player will unintentionally double-click frob an item during pick up, because they know that would cause them to drop it. Therefore, players are more likely to discover long-press frob to extinguish than double-click frob to extinguish, which is a good thing. We want the player to discover it (if they didn't read the manual or play the tutorial mission). Also, long-press frob is used in other games, such as Fallout 4.

Getting double-click frob to extinguish to work well along with drop item would be troublesome, because there would always be a double-click delay before a single-click drop initiates. Long-press frob does not have a drop issue, because the player can long-press frob until they see the candle extinguish or quick-press frob to instantly drop it.

2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

UPDATE: And the double-click approach does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for the second part of double-click.

To be clear, long-press frob also "does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for" a longer frob press.

This long-press frob proposal has already been play tested and agreed to be a good control scheme by several players. Double-click frob would need new code written, would need to be play tested, and would need to be fine tuned based on player feedback. Another rewrite of the code would be a distraction and may not bring us closer to the goal of "providing a better experience for new players as well as longtime players," especially since one has already been found and proven: long-press frob.

For longtime players who are not satisfied with this new control scheme, "tdm_frobhold_delay 0" restores TDM 2.11 behavior.

After 7 months of player research, code experiments, early player feedback, adjustments, rewriting code, and more player feedback, I believe long-press frob is good enough, given all of the compromises, imperfections, and its iterative design. It solves the problems stated in the proposal on the first page, and its design goals are met.

[stgatilov]

Oh no, you are changing the controls scheme.

Previously body grabbing was toggle-like behavior (click to toggle between grabbed and not), now it has hold-like behavior (has to hold to drag body). Previously clicking a body did not shoulder it, now it does. Previously holding the click slightly longer did not cause a different action on a candle, now it does.

The old controls scheme is consistent: you click to grab/ungrab, then you Enter to perform action on the grabbed object. The double-click scheme is also consistent: you still click to grab/ungrab, but now you also have double-click to combine grab + action.

The proposed scheme is totally inconsistent. Clicking on an object grabs it, clicking again ungrabs. Clicking on a body... shoulders it... why? Then clicking again does not even unshoulder it. Long click on a candle extinguishes it without grabbing, but long click on a body grabs it... why? So you hold you mouse for grabbing bodies, but for grabbing candles this does not work... why?
Sooner or later someone will come and say that objects should also be grabbed by holding, since bodies does so. And we'll make excuses like "you know, body grabbing is garbage and nobody needs it, but grabbing objects is different, so we just made different controls, and now making them similar won't work".

I like the idea of making instant-shoulder and candle extinguishing easy to do, but the exact controls scheme is something very strange.

[stgatilov]

10 minutes ago, Daft Mugi said:

This long-press frob proposal has already been play tested and agreed to be a good control scheme by several players. Double-click frob would need new code written, would need to be play tested, and would need to be fine tuned based on player feedback. Another rewrite of the code would be a distraction and may not bring us closer to the goal of "providing a better experience for new players as well as longtime players," especially since one has already been found and proven: long-press frob.

After 7 months of player research, code experiments, early player feedback, adjustments, rewriting code, and more player feedback, I believe long-press frob is good enough, given all of the compromises, imperfections, and its iterative design. It solves the problems stated in the proposal on the first page, and its design goals are met.

Well, I'm sorry I missed the discussion. The only threads I see are 2 weeks old.

You decided to change core aspect of gameplay, such things are painful.

[Wellingtoncrab]

11 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

The proposed scheme is totally inconsistent. Clicking on an object grabs it, clicking again ungrabs. Clicking on a body... shoulders it... why?

This is exactly the dynamic of interacting with objects vs bodies in the game Thief and it does not confuse players. It is consistent in that frobbing an object does the primary interaction with said object:

If it’s a crate pick it up

If it’s a readable read it

If it’s a switch flip it

If it’s a door open it

If it’s a body shoulder it

I have never heard anyone describe this as inconsistent.

17 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

Then clicking again does not even unshoulder it.

This is false - clicking again unshoulders a body, just like it does in thief.

18 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

Long click on a candle extinguishes it without grabbing, but long click on a body grabs it... why?

This I would say there is some agreement  - it would have been nice for the primary interaction with lit candles to be to snuff them out, but since unlit candles and candle holders are also physics objects that cannot be toggle lit, this is quite confusing when going to interact with unlit candles such as this array in the training mission

As stated it is arguable the primary interactions of physics objects is to pick them up.

[wesp5]

42 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

The proposed scheme is totally inconsistent.

I completely agree, but I think it could be made consistent in both long frob or double frob by reversing the body shouldering behaviour. I don't know why everybody here thinks a body should immediately be shouldered.

Edited September 24, 2023 by wesp5

[wesp5]

5 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

If it’s a crate pick it up

If it’s a readable read it

If it’s a switch flip it

If it’s a door open it

If it’s a body shoulder it

As far as I know in TDM if the object is moveable frobing it will ALWAYS pick it up. Only stationary readables are read. Only stationary switches are flipped. Only stationary doors are opened. Shouldering a moveable body is inconstent behaviour!

Edited September 25, 2023 by wesp5

[Wellingtoncrab]

@wesp5at this point you can disagree with it - but are you really missing why there is an attempt to make the body shouldered with one click? Read the first post but readdressed a few times at this point

[Wellingtoncrab]

2 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

As far as I know in TDM if the object is moveable frobing it will ALWAYS pick it up. Only statuary readables are read. Only statuary switches are flipped. Only statuary doors are opened. Shouldering a moveable body is inconstent behaviour!

I don’t understand your point at all. In thief if a book is stationary frobbing it will read it. If it’s a inventory item you will pick it up and then you need to use it to read it. 

It is the exact same in TDM - is this too inconsistent? Why didn’t we change it?

In thief bodies are primitive physics objects just like crates. Why did they not worry about whether this was inconsistent that the body didn’t first hover in front of the player instead of just shouldering it?

Who knows - we weren’t in the room but as far as I can tell this has never confused anyone - where as it’s relatively easy to find examples of how tdms solutions are confusing and feel unnatural to players.

TDM was created in response to negative feedback from the thief community about TDS. While I like the game TDS has notoriously bad game feel and it is disappointing to see people who love the games dismiss TDM using the same language and they never make it far enough with the game to see everything it has to offer.

We have a lot offer. That is why it’s important to me as a player first and person who makes content for the game second.

[snatcher]

The fewer words you need to explain your mechanic the better it is designed:

For static objects press "frob" to interact with them. For moveables press "frob" to grab them and "use" to interact with them.

TDM follows these simple rules nicely.

@Daft Mugi

I welcome this initiative and I encourage you to carry on experimenting. Here are my thoughts:

Interacting with moveable lights: currently to extinguish a candle I must "frob" it and "use" it. If I extinguish a candle unintentionally it is my fault (I pressed the wrong button). With your design, is it my fault if I frobbed a candle 201 milliseconds and extinguished it unintentionally? Long-pressing buttons in TDM is faulty because there isn't any visual timer / bar / whatever.

Dragging vs shouldering a body: interacting with the limbs of a body is the more challenging of the two mechanics. Do we really want to promote the easiest of the two and make the challenging mechanic more difficult? Besides, with your design I unintentionally drop bodies often while I intend to interact with doors, is it my fault?

In my opinion the short term solution is a very long frob (0,5 secs or longer) to extinguish a candle and/or shoulder a body. Leave the original mechanic intact but have the new functionality somewhere in there for those who want them. The long term solution is something else: what would you do if you were to build these mechanics from scratch? Think big.

PS1: Developers should never point players to anything that isn't available in the in-game settings. cvars should be there for 1) debugging 2) testing 3) very special cases, mainly accessibility / usability.

PS2: "This is how Thief does it" sounds like a lame excuse. Thief is dead, TDM is alive!

[stgatilov]

Maybe I'll try make a double-click prototype?
Indeed, I don't have 7 months, so it won't be anywhere as polished as this proposal, but perhaps I could make something enough to understand how it feels.

The double-clicking can be made generic, so that we would probably be able to assign other actions to double-click.

P.S. I think I only saw long-click thing on touch screens, and there I always see some kind of circular progress bar which explains to me that holding the button will do something special. But that's not something suitable for TDM unfortunately. And yeah, I cannot easily google up discussions regarding long-click with mouse.

[Daft Mugi]

9 minutes ago, snatcher said:

The fewer words you need to explain your mechanic the better it is designed:

For static objects press "frob" to interact with them. For moveables press "frob" to grab them and "use" to interact with them.

• Quick-press frob
  • Pick up body and shoulder it (carry it) / Drop body
  • Pick up candle/lantern and carry it / Drop candle/lantern
  • Pick up an item and carry it / Drop item
• Long-press frob (for special action)
  • Drag body or body limbs
  • Pinch out candle (also, pinch out candle while carrying it)
  • Toggle lantern off/on (also, toggle lantern while carrying it)

Not many words at all.

Have you tried the Windows build that @Wellingtoncrab made yet, or did you just think about this? I'm a bit surprised that you are not for this change. It seems like something you would like.

This change is something best felt while playing. During early testing, those who tried it out in game liked it.

[snatcher]

41 minutes ago, Daft Mugi said:

Have you tried the Windows build that @Wellingtoncrab made yet, or did you just think about this?

I have been following this thread and I tried Wellingtoncrab's build.

41 minutes ago, Daft Mugi said:

I'm a bit surprised that you are not for this change. It seems like something you would like.

I thought about all this time ago and I made up my mind back then. I understand the desire for these changes but at the same time I understand why things are the way they are. The current TDM design is consistent and there isn't much room for improvement if we stick to what's available. Shortcuts won't cut it, a modern solution requires something else: less keys and more visuals, sorry to say.

With my comments I am trying to warn that we probably are focusing too much on the goal and too little on the side effects 99% of players we will never hear from might face: A candle unintentionally extinguished is frustrating. Dropping bodies while operating doors is frustrating. Trying to hide a leg in the shadows only to end up shouldering the body is frustrating.

Edited September 24, 2023 by snatcher

[Wellingtoncrab]

These frustrations are real and they are actively preventing people from playing the game. There are plenty more examples in the first post. The idea that TDM is "alive" but nothing can or should be done to help these players into the game doesn't make much sense to me.

If I experience 0% of the frustrations described above and actively enjoy playing the game more will something be included as a option for me and these players? I think of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided which has a heavily revised control scheme to allow for more complex interactions, but allows you to select the Human Revolution controls if you prefer those.

Nothing as far as two entirely separate control layers. But were there is an object interaction mode where you can pick between "TDM" which is how it is today and an "Classic" mode where these interactions are more intuitive for these players. Then at least they would have some hope of finding an answer in the options menu for them.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Wellingtoncrab

[thebigh]

What all this tells me is that the training mission needs a serious overhaul. In places it ought to use GUIs rather than static books to give instructions.

For example, in the area where you KO the patrolling Builder so you can learn to stash bodies, blackjacking him should trigger a GUI message then and there saying something like, "Highlight and frob the Builder to drag him around, or press ENTER to shoulder him"

[snatcher]

31 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

These frustrations are real and they are actively preventing people from playing the game. There are plenty more examples in the first post. The idea that TDM is "alive" but nothing can or should be done to help these players into the game doesn't make much sense to me.

If I experience 0% of the frustrations described above and actively enjoy playing the game more will something be included as a option for me and these players? I think of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided which has a heavily revised control scheme to allow for more complex interactions, but allows you to select the Human Revolution controls if you prefer those.

Nothing as far as two entirely separate control layers. But were there is an object interaction mode where you can pick between "TDM" which is how it is today and an "Classic" mode where these interactions are more intuitive for these players. Then at least they would have some hope of finding an answer in the options menu for them.

Sure, let's then just add a couple of settings to the menu:

• Shoulder body: frob/use
• Extinguish candle: frob/use

For some reason we have an "Open Doors on Unlock" setting and surprisingly (for me) it is set to "Yes" by default. I don't quite understand why doors should open automatically and expose me but I guess back in the day there was a similar "Thief does it" discussion that fortunately ended up in truce.

Edited September 24, 2023 by snatcher
Including full quote from Weelingtoncrab

[Wellingtoncrab]

17 minutes ago, snatcher said:

there was a similar "Thief does it" discussion that fortunately ended up in truce.

You keep misrepresenting my stance - I don't think the changes should be made so it the same as thief and I don't think the games should be the same in all regards. I kept asking why is it that thief has more context sensitive frobbing interactions, such as with bodies, but they are not considered inconsistent by players.

It is obviously the template for the game after all.

No one answered this and you seemingly dismissed it as a "lame excuse".

Edited September 24, 2023 by Wellingtoncrab
removed superfluous language

[snatcher]

16 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

You keep misrepresenting my stance - I don't think the changes should be made so it the same as thief and I don't think the games should be the same in all regards. [...]

My references to Thief-be-like are generic, not targeting anybody in particular. Sorry if it sounded like it was directly or indirectly aimed at you. It wasn't my intention.

[wesp5]

I agree with snatcher that the current solution has the bodies backwards and I have another example: consumables. Right now it's frob to take and use to eat. Your solution would be frob to eat and long frob to what, not eat? Because we need this for missions where you are supposed to give consumables to somebody. The consistent solution would be frob to take and long frob to eat. So it must be frob to take bodies and long frob to shoulder them. I for one do not should everybody I knock out, only those who might rise suspicions. As for auto opening of doors, I had this off by default, but sadly there are missions who only work with this on, which indeed is an mistake of these missions, but thus has become standard...

Edited September 25, 2023 by wesp5

[Wellingtoncrab]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-sensitive_user_interface

“At the simplest level each possible action is reduced to a single most likely action”

The entire concept of frobbing is already about context, not about consistency across all interactions. It is probably one of the very first examples of a complex context sensitive input in a first person game - something which is ubiquitous now.

Again thief, deus ex, dishonored all all have a single frob input, manage to use this inconsistently to both pick up physics objects AND shoulder bodies with this one input, and this confuses no one. (dishonored does have text cues)

Further this thread was about features specifically designed to help struggling new players. I see the same feedback over and over again, but so far only one person has mentioned any alternatives which could help them.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Wellingtoncrab

[Skaruts]

Quite like this proposal. I like being able to drag bodies and pick up candles, but I never liked having to do those things in order to be allowed to do the other thing I want to do. It's an extra step that doesn't really seem justified. The way I see it, I ought to be able to do the thing I want, directly.

Especially considering that most of the time I want to pinch a candle, not pick it up, and shoulder a body, not drag it. If anything, the most commonly wanted action should be the most easily accessible.

 

[Daft Mugi]

Another reason for long-press frob for special action: 2.11 already has one, multiloot.

Quick-press frob to loot.
Long-press frob to multiloot.