Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Springheel

How would you change St. Lucia

Recommended Posts

 

  1. A relatively trivial point, but there is a good reason the original Thief games used Normal/Hard/Expert rather than Easy/Normal/Hard as their difficulty labels. There is absolutely nothing "easy" about our Easy mode, and I suggest we stick with the same rationale used by LGS.

 

Indeed, this seems like a fair point, because the Missions difficulty has basicly nothing to do with the game mechanics difficulty, which can be set seperately. It can be a bit misleading. Mission authors might not differentiate between "difficulties" in their maps, and its quite likely that easy/normal/hard just means more or less gear or initial money for the shop, or the fact you have a map or not, more or less loot, that sort of thing, not necessarily rendering the "game" easier, just the reaching of your objectives inside the mission.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

along with the nihilistic story

Uhm????

 

*preparing my Nietzsche's philosophical combat moustache pair*

Edited by lowenz
  • Like 1

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't get the "nihilistic" point, either. :)


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see it. Your actions in St. Lucia result in the ruin of a small church which was on the edge of making it big in a poor community that really needed that kind of boost, the loss of a holy relic, and the triumph of envy and corruption. It is a steal-from-the-poor dog-eat-dog premise.

  • Like 1

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, to me it seemed the Priests in the Church were the only ones who really benefited in a monetary sense, so it's mor steal-from-the-one-who steals-from-the-poor. :)


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is quite some time, that I have played the mission, but i also remember that guard (although I am not sure about the difficulty setting). I actually never noticed that there was a way around. I distracted the guard with a noise arrow. It took some tries to know where exactly to shoot the arrow, that the guard looks away long enough, but that way it was possible to sneak past him, without knocking him out or killing him.

 

Regarding the nave: as I said, I am not sure about my difficulty setting, but I think I also had two guards there. It was quite challenging, and I needed a couple of tries, but I do not remember it to be frustrating or impossible.

 

 

 

The same here, had not much of a problem getting past the guards. Just had to think of a plan, and execute it well. I greatly enjoyed that challenge. Would not want any other signage or other change to help hold my hand while I get past him. Although I am in the minority here, I still say, don't change it!

Edited by Mr M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, to me it seemed the Priests in the Church were the only ones who really benefited in a monetary sense, so it's mor steal-from-the-one-who steals-from-the-poor. :)

 

Unless if the poor donated willing and not from guise of deceit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally went back and looked at a playthrough on Youtube, never realized how to make the hammer fall down on the statue! Probably spent around an hour trying to do different wierd things, it wasn't very obvious it was pushable, since nothing else in the map indicated that it was possible. Did not even think of that part of the game mechanics, I thought I was supposed to make the entire scaffolding fall or something... And from reading this thread, I see I've missed several other things in my own playthrough (possible to enter tavern? key on ledge??).


"My milkshake bringeth all ye gentlefolk to the yard. Verily 'tis better than thine, I would teach thee, but I must levy a fee."

"When Kleiner showed me the sky-line of New York I told him that man is like the coral insect—designed to build vast, beautiful, mineral things for the moon to delight in after he is dead."

https://soundcloud.com/paralytik

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few minor things I'd like to take care of in St. Lucia:

 

1 - change the rotation direction of the double doors that will block the nearby double doors, around location [-2037, 937, -22]. We've had a lot of problems in that area with AI getting hung up, and having the doors open differently will help a lot.

 

2 - move path_corners away from doors. When a path_corner is near a door, it can make door-handling awkward while the AI tries to find the right place to stand. In general, path_corners should be away from doors, and let the door-handling code provide a smooth path through the doors.

 

3 - make sure all path_corners sit on the ground/floor. The one in the kitchen is up in the air, and there might be others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hadn't played this one for ages so just had a go at it

I wouldn't call it easy as it is very difficult to spot the note about the key on the window ledge - once you have that it is relatively straightforward - so if the note was more obvious or there was another hint somewhere about it

 

Agreed. It was hard to notice that note. Maybe make it so that woman going past that stone stand there for a short time. Or something similar that would indicate something is there.

Also there is much light around statue. (I think key for upper door is with guard inside statue room) So it is very hard to enter that room with statue. Guard very often sees opened door.

And last one was that big hammer you have to push. Maybe make it more visible. Its also hard with pushable objects. That was the only one besides in training mission that I found.

 

But it is true that I only played once that mission on hard probably and that was just after training mission. So i was very new.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But it is true that I only played once that mission on hard probably and that was just after training mission. So i was very new.

 

This mission is for new players mostly, so you did nothing wrong. :)


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Replayed it: I came to the conclusion that overall this mission seems to lack some ambient sounds mostly.

Particularly the sewer section felt somewhat *empty* and a little generic. Also some segments of the Church itself.

 

One of the things that make TDM so good is the clever use of music/ambient sounds to create an authentic experience.

 

At the moment St. Lucia feels like "one of those old missions" from TDM when they weren't as good as they came to be lately (taking in consideration the increased amount of assets and the increase of quality over time).

 

Have to agree on the sewer key remarks mentioned before. There doesn't seem to be ANYTHING that hints at where that key may be. Maybe I missed something but it's really more of a pain than it probably ought to be.

Searched all of the beggar huts but not much of a clue on a note which indicates where it is. Only one in the tavern that mentions it but nothing else.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember what difficulty I played on, but what I remember is that:

That one guard - when approaching him, I didn't realize, that the church is around that corner, and following this: that this point is the main entrance. For me it was just another passage, leading to another area. As it was my first mission in TDM, I didn't know that the missions were generally a little more compressed, and was expecting more city part before getting to the church, and especially seeing the church before getting to its entrance.

 

After I was noticed by the guard, I tried to get as close as possible, as I was expecting some sewer access in front of him, or some other secret access to the sides of it. Found nothing there of course.

 

So what I think would make a good change, is when that point is either advertised more, or redesigned so that you see the church before going further in.

One way could be, that the passage is remade with a bit more corners. From one of the bendings you could then have a glimpse (through a grate for example) to the church, when the streets are no longer in view. After that, the passage as it is now could then be set beyond that point, as it is, because it would then be easy to know that there will be guards in front of the just seen church, and exposing yourself to light there is definitly not a good idea.

 

Maybe also a voice that comments when you pass the grate where you can have a glimpse of St. Lucia.

 

I think that would have helped me realize more that the entrance is just around the corner, and that I have to search for the alternative entrance before coming here.

 

Or a good map of the surroundings might have helped also, marking a few points of interest (I don't think I had one), from which the player can deduce that he is about to get to the church after the bending with the guard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that St. Lucia is a hallmark to TDM, but offering a challenging mission (with very challenging beginning, i.e. the guard) as the first experience / downloaded with game is not wise IMO.

 

Games usually start off relatively easy and allow the player to get used to the environment / enemies / skills before throwing them into the gauntlet / turning up the heat.

 

Think if Thief started out with Strange Bedfellows instead of Bafford's Mansion...or if DOOM started out with Mr. Erebus instead of Hangar.

 

I would change the guard's stats so he has less hit points and easier to kill. Thus players can live through the fight, but at the same time be aware the consequences of fighting and the real need to stay hidden. Also I believe this would highlight the joy of finding the alternate route more as it would seem two equally difficult entrances instead of one really hard one to locate and another that is nearly impossible for the first enemy that is met in the game. This also presents the player with an idea that all enemies could be just as difficult to kill, which is entirely not true.

 

This guard more than anything else I believe turn people off to TDM by giving an initial bad taste when first experiencing the game.

 

I understand this is a niche game for a niche market meant to be into stealth / hardcore gamers, but I didn't get "into" TDM until playing some of the other missions and finding out they are quite different from what St. Lucia initially paints the game out with for a first impression.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would change the guard's stats so he has less hit points and easier to kill.

This isn't the intention of TDM. It's not an MMO where you are supposed to kill everything in sight. If players insist on trying to fight their way through armed guards there should be a very realistic possibility of death.

 

The problem in this case isn't that the guard is too hard to kill, it's that you're not supposed to go that way but the mission doesn't make it clear that there is another way in.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree OrbWeaver, my point was that for the first enemy encountered I don't believe that the enemy should be such a tank. A player's familiarity with sword swinging / blocking / other techniques aren't prepared for such a tough guard on first play, even after playing the tutorial.

 

I also agree that the alternate route needs a much more obvious entry point / information to find.

 

Now, these points I am making are *only* because St. Lucia will be a player's first impression, which psychologically, is extremely important to selling it to the audience. If St. Lucia was just another mission, it wouldn't matter as much. Being it is the maiden voyage of most players to TDM, it shouldn't provide frustration so early into the experience.

 

I may not be a great programmer, be able to do fantastic art, and I have a hard time building even simple rooms in DR, but I can vouch for having a solid grasp on psychology / the way the mind works.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree OrbWeaver, my point was that for the first enemy encountered I don't believe that the enemy should be such a tank. A player's familiarity with sword swinging / blocking / other techniques aren't prepared for such a tough guard on first play, even after playing the tutorial.

 

I also agree that the alternate route needs a much more obvious entry point / information to find.

 

Now, these points I am making are *only* because St. Lucia will be a player's first impression, which psychologically, is extremely important to selling it to the audience. If St. Lucia was just another mission, it wouldn't matter as much. Being it is the maiden voyage of most players to TDM, it shouldn't provide frustration so early into the experience.

 

I may not be a great programmer, be able to do fantastic art, and I have a hard time building even simple rooms in DR, but I can vouch for having a solid grasp on psychology / the way the mind works.

You perfectly expressed my feelings towards this level. I hardly understood it, why was it so difficult on my first playthrough and quickly turned to other FM's for their value to see what TDM really is.


"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please update the part of this mission if possible asap :unsure:


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that´s the core ;)

 

The Builder guard was probably meant to be considered the same as a wall: you can't get through here at your current level of expertise, so find a different way in.

 

The briefing says as much: find an alternate way in. Some folks have found that easy to do, others have not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The briefing says as much: find an alternate way in. Some folks have found that easy to do, others have not.

I think the difference is, if you think that this tunnel is the entrance to St. Lucia.

There are not many hints to that, if you are new to The Dark Mod.

While an experienced player easily makes the connection between builder guard and church property, an inexperienced player does not automatically do that.

 

And there is no automatic visual path of sight to St. Lucia before entering the tunnel I think.

 

So a player could think, if he doesn't stumble on the alternate path before going into the tunnel, that the alternate path comes somewhere after the tunnel.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's packaged with the game, so I imagine this is shooting for the 1.04 release.

 

Edit. Oops, I meant 2.04.

  • Like 1

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...