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Author note: It's hard to believe it's already been a year since Act 1 came out! Well during this mission the player will be following Corbin into the Grimwood district to followup on a lead from last night (Act 1) .. the mysterious tablet! This mission is my first time including full EFX support as well as a HD briefing video file, additionally a new script has been added crafted by the talented Obsttorte which has loot flying towards the player when you pick it up. On a level design front I have tried to change things up a bit by really catering towards a number of play styles, this mission can be completely ghosted or you can use the tools at your disposal to wreak havoc on the citizens of Northdale. For the first time I have tried to create more sandbox environments which don't offer clear answers handed directly to you, so if you're having trouble figuring something out try a different method. This mission takes between 1 - 2 hours to finish depending on the difficulty you play on and how thoroughly you explore. I hope you enjoy your night in Northdale! - Goldwell Voice actors Fen Phoenix Goldwell Random_taffer Yandros Beta testers Amadeus Boiler's Hiss Cambridge Spy Chakkman Crowind Epifire Kingsal SquadaFroinx Custom Assets Andreas Rocha DrK Epifire Grayman Kingsal MalachiAD Obsttorte Sotha Springheel SquadaFroinx Purgator With special thanks to Epifire for creating a large collection of custom models, Grayman for helping out with coding, Kingsal for drawing the ingame map and Moonbo for his script revision on the briefing video. Available via in-game downloader MIRROR File Size: 417 mb EDIT: If you are having performance issues please consult this post by Nbohr1more which may address your issue http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/19936-fan-mission-shadows-of-northdale-act-ii-by-goldwell-20190320/page-2?do=findComment&comment=436271

Hey Greebo Thought you might appreciate this -

I have committed my changes to SVN, now SVN works on the UTF-8 system. It reads all language strings from all.utf8lang file, and only reads old-style {language}.lang files for missions if the equivalent new-style files are not available. The core .lang / .map files are present yet, but will hopefully be deleted. In the end, I had to manually add some characters to utf8map to suppress warnings. They were not handled by the old engine: I simply remapped them all to the question mark. It seems that the majority of them come from language names, and I don't care if they look broken or have question marks. I have already stated my position about language names. At the current moment, .utf8lang uses the same format as .lang, but this is temporary. As I said before, this must be changed in order to not lock us into compatibility trap. The format should be a sequence of "commands", each command starting with a keyword saying which command it is. And global state should be kept to minimum (e.g. current language seems acceptable). In addition to the current "#str_{name}" placeholders, I'd like to add two more types of replacements for missions. 1) Plain-text replacements, i.e. replace "Not enough drive space to save the game." with "Não há espaço para salvar o jogo.", as I suggested before. This approach provides zero inconvenience for the mapper, but it rather unreliable. It becomes especially bad for short strings. This kind of replacements is not cheap to perform, but I think I know how to do it efficiently. The first version will do it with bruteforce algorithm, we don't have any plain-text replacements yet anyway. 2) Full-text + ID replacements, i.e. replace "Not enough drive space to save the game.#id_nospacesave#" with "Não há espaço para salvar o jogo.#id_nospacesave#". The #id_...# placeholders are stripped from the text by the engine even if translation does not exist. If translation exists, then the engine verifies the context around the placeholder and does not apply it in case of mismatch. This approach gives mild inconvenience to the mapper, since he can clearly see the original text but has to tolerance this annoying tag at the end. The mapper can even edit the text without touching the placeholder: the obsolete translations will stop working automatically. I have a feeling that plain-text replacements won't be enough for the missions, and hope that such extra "tags" can be used here and there to make it more reliable.

How you can help depends a lot on what skills you have. I can Record Video Recording "Let's Play" videos or simple walkthroughs of existing missions and posting them to Youtube is great exposure for the mod (see example .) Be sure to let us know so we can link to them. If you have some editing ability, Video tutorials, where you explain how the mod works, or how to use specific tools, would also be great. Video trailers, showcasing interesting places and features, are also great for publicity. An example is . I can Write Writing reviews for missions are always nice, especially if they include good screenshots. Not only does it give us something to post on other forums, but it makes mappers feel good when their mission gets attention (especially if it's positive). We have a collective thread to post reviews in: http://forums.thedar...s-walkthroughs/ Writing reviews of the mod as a whole, targetted an an audience that doesn't know much about TDM, is also very useful. You could also try offering your services to mappers to create interesting readables, or to proofread for their mission. I can Act and Record Audio We are always on the lookout for good quality audio recordings for vocal sets. If interested, you can pick a few different lines from this script: http://wiki.thedarkm...t:_Average_Jack and send the recordings to Springheel, who then writes a script based on the type of voice you have. I can Translate We could always use translations of our menu/hud into more languages. Also, only a few FMs are aavailable in more than one language, so there is a lot of work there, see the I18N Translator's Guide in the Wiki. I can Model Great! Take a look at the model request thread:http://forums.thedar...-requests-here/ and pick something that interests you. Or just post a, "Hey, anybody want a model?" thread in this forum and I'm sure mappers will get back to you. I can Animate Fantastic. We can always use more good animations. Our current character rigs use a Maya skeleton. PM Springheel for more info. I know C++ Have a look at our coding section in the wiki, pick an issue or feature from the bugtracker of the mod or the leveleditor, download the recent sourcecode release (or better ask for an SVN checkout) and get cracking. Make sure nobody is already working on that specific issue and feel free to ask questions. I can Edit Images We can always use completely new textures and/or improved versions of older textures. How to get started and how to import them into the mod. I can Take Photos Good quality photos of useful textures (medieval-ish building facades, dirt, rocks, wood, etc) are always welcome. The fewer directional shadows and higher resolution, the better. I don't have any skills Even if you can't do any of the above, you can still help out. Talk about TDM in other forums; share your (preferably positive) experiences with other gamers you know. Last, but not least, compliment people when you like their work. Saying "thanks", to a developer or, "I really enjoyed your mission" to a mapper will make their day. -------------------- I'll update this further as more things occur to me.

Hello and thanks for checking out this post. I'm delighted to announce that version 1.1 of my fan mission "Cole Hurst 1: Eaton" is now available to download and play. This post is spoiler free, so please don't avoid digging into the details below if you are interested. I'm just using the spoiler tags to organize this post a bit. Let me start by saying "thank you" to anyone who has either previously played - or is considering playing this mission. It really means a lot to me. I have been away for a while, but following a round of beta testing that took place some time last year, I've only just recently managed to finish this update. I'm slightly embarrassed by how long it has taken me to complete, but I wanted to make sure that the valuable feedback I received was all properly addressed. Mission description "Tonight, Eaton's wealthiest citizens will gather at Lord Mayor Zelmer's estate to celebrate the city's founding. Nobles, dignitaries, a famed musician, and even the Queen will pass through its gates. While the guests celebrate Eaton's future, Cole Hurst is looking for a way out." For those new to and/or curious about this mission: I guess I would describe it as a traditional heist-style mission - although with a couple of major plot twist along the way. It's a very large map and I think it should take most players at least a few hours to complete. Screenshots Changes in version 1.1 Countless additions and a large amount of smaller tweaks and changes have all made it into this release. I may have already forgot a few things, but here are what I consider to be the main highlights: * New secrets & optional side quests * Story tweaks and reworked readables * Subtitles * Difficulty tweaks and related changes * Stability fixes * Various cosmetic changes * Audio tweaks * TDM version 2.13 now required Contributions and acknowledgments A special thanks to all of those listed below. I'm sincerely grateful for all your contributions! Mission testers and technical support @nbohr1more, @stgatilov, @duzenko, @Acolytesix, @Dragofer, @JackFarmer, @Shadow, @Cambridge Spy, @wesp5, @madtaffer, @prjames, @suzy8track, @datiswous, @boissiere and @Bergante Story Kelly Hrupa Voice actors twhalen2600 (AKA @Benny_the_guard) and Kelly Hrupa

Very strange, in principle that should only affect the material display not care about the model or entity it is on, thou thinking about it, perhaps the material code dealing with two sided cannot deal with moving/displacing surfaces.

============== -= IRIS =- ============== WELLINGTONCRAB TDM v 2.11 REQ Ver. 1.3 *For Maureen* -=- "Carry the light of the Builder, Brother. Unto its end." -Valediction of the Devoted "What year is this? Am I dreaming?" -Plea of the Thief Dear Iris, I am old and broken. When we were young it felt like the words came easily. Now I find the ink has long dried on the pen and I'm as wanting for words as coin in my purse. I can tell we are nearing the end of the tale; time enough for one more job before the curtain call... ============== -Installation- Requires minimum version of TDM 2.11 **Dev build dev17056-10800 (2.13) fixes several visual effects which have been broken in the mission since the release of 2.11. For that reason playing with that version or later is currently recommended** -Iris does not support mods or the Unofficial Patch- Download and place the following .pk4 into you FMs directory: Iris Download ============== Beta Russian Language Translations by @kalinovka Mirror #1: yandex.ru Mirror #2: Google Drive ============== *Thank you for playing. Iris is a large mission which can either take as quickly or as long as you are compelled to play. I hope someone out there enjoys it and this initial release is not completely busted - I tried the best I could!* *Iris both is and isn't what it seems. If commenting please use spoiler tags where appropriate. If you are not certain if it would be appropriate a good assumption would be to use a spoiler tag* *Support TDM by rating missions on Thief Guild: https://www.thiefguild.com/* ============== WITH LASTING GRATITUDE: OBSTORTTE - Whose gameplay scripts from his thread laid the foundation which made the mission seem like something I could even pull off at all. Also fantastic tutorial videos! DRAGOFER - Who built upon that foundation and made it shine even brighter! And whom also provided immeasurable quantities of help and encouragement the past couple years on the TDM discord. ORBWEAVER & GIGAGOOGA - For generously offering their ambient music up for use. EPIFIRE - Who lent me his fine trash and trash receptacle models. AMADEUS - Who was the first person who wasn't me to play the damn thing and provided his excellent editorial services to improving the readers experience playing TESTERS AND TROUBLESHOOTERS: AMADEUS * DATISWOUS * SPOOKS * ALUMINUMHASTE * JAXA * JACKFARMER * WESP5 * ATE0ATE * MADTAFFER * STGATILOV * DRAGOFER * KINGSAL * KLATREMUS - What can I possibly say? Playing this thing over and over again could not have been easy. Deepest thanks and all apologies. -=THANKS TO ALL ON THE TDM DISCORD AND FORUM=- ==SEE README.TXT FOR ADDITIONAL ATTRIBUTIONS & INFORMATION== HONORABLE MENTION: GOLDWELL - If I hadn't by chance stumbled into Northdale back in 2018/2019 I would probably still be trying to get this thing to work in TDS, which means it probably would not exist - though more details on that in readme. ============== Boring Technical Information: *Iris is a performance intensive mission and I recommend a GTX 1060 or equivalent. I find the performance similar to other demanding TDM missions on my machine, but mileage may vary and my apologies if this prevents anyone from enjoying the mission.* *Iris heavily modifies the behavior of AI in the game, how they relate/respond to each other and the player. So they may act even stranger than they do typically in TDM. Feedback on this is useful - as it can potentially be improved and expanded upon in future patches.* -=- This is my first release and it has been a long time coming! If I forgot anything please let me know! God Speed. 2.10 Features Used:

that looks cool . btw realtime reflections in cubemaps are actually possible but im not sure the code in idtech 4 is setup to allow it. also it does have an overhead which may be why it was not coded in. tenebrae (old quake fork with doom3 like features) used realtime reflections for some environmental effects such as lava ball's casting light reflections on the walls. an old quake engine project of mine had code for creating normalmaps in realtime and while it ran fast enough it suffered from microstutters due to the insane ammount of textures it had to process each second. might actually not be so bad for cubemaps though as these are situational so could be an interresting project.

Looks like it's the same old script updated for latest Blender version. Just so you know, this vibe coded script below exports smaller files. It always bothered me that .md5anim files from Blender are three times bigger than they should. https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22528-md5-format-importer-exporter-for-blender-36/#findComment-508957

read a bit of the render code and claude used an interresting way of melting the old ARB code with the newer GL3 and vulkan backends. I would probably have ditched the older backends (to much hazzle for a hobby programmer to keep them all) but this seems quite ok code wise albeit a bit hard to read.

edit: TL;DR: I've tweaked the .lwo exporter to preserve autosmooth angle Ahem. When I started writing this post a couple of days ago, it was supposed to be a "please help me, models won't smooth" kind of thing, but as I started taking screenshots and such for a comprehensive view of the problem, the question morphed into a "is there a hack to get .lwo's to export the way .ase's do", then to "how to get the same surface smoothing from Blender as you can get from Lightwave" and eventually to "does anyone around know python and blender enough to fix the export plugin". But then I fixed the addon myself, so it was almost as if there's no point to the thread. However, while googling around for a solution I stumbled upon a whole bunch of incomplete (1,2) or outright wrong (1,2) information, and whenever the question came up the issue was never really resolved completely. That might be because the problem isn't obvious, since a lot of exported models will actually end up correctly smoothed on export, leading one to believe wrong shading in rare cases is due to modeling mistakes / bad shadowmesh / etc. Point is, having the definitive .lwo smoothing post seems useful. Identifying the problem: Here's the mesh. I add an 'edge split' modifier (I use sharp edges while modeling the low poly, so I can uncheck the 'edge angle' option). I can now apply the modifier(s) and export to .ase (triple the mesh either in export options or in modifiers beforehand). The .ase looks alright in-game: Now I'll export it to .lwo using this script. Depending on export options, here are the results: If I also check "remove doubles", I'll lose all of the split (sharp) edges: (recalculating normals on export can be unpredictable as well, so clean up the model beforehand instead) Right about this point I start searching for a solution online, stumble upon this and try the renderbump hack. However, all it seems to do is weld all of the vertices back together at runtime and attempt to smooth the whole surface, similarly to "remove duplicates", but with no upper threshold. (to anyone possibly reading this in the future: don't forget to revert your changes to the materials!) Source of the problem: At this point I still wasn't sure if it's even possible to get .lwo's identical to .ase's, so I installed Lightwave. Naturally, it took some time to eventually stumble upon Surface Editor (F5), and the "smoothing threshold" contained therein. But then I just had to crank it up to 180 and export to "LWO2". That fixes everything in-game: So the issue is trivial, I just have to find a way to somehow pass on a smoothing angle through the exporter. However, the "auto smooth" option on the object data tab doesn't seem to affect anything regardless of angle. Long story short, after some hex-comparison magic, I home in on SMAN block in the exporter script: So what it actually does is set your smoothing angle to either 90°, 86°(??), or 0°, depending on whether you've chosen "idtech compatible", "smoothed", or neither. The solution: Now, I don't know Python and I don't know Blender scripting, so I can't say with full certainty that I didn't break anything. But I did cobble together a version of the script that seems to do the job. Here it is, mirror / do whatever you want with it. If your mesh has autosmooth enabled, and you've checked "idtech" or "smoothed" on export, your chosen autosmooth angle will now transfer to the surface in .lwo: I took the liberty of changing the default export options to what seems to suit TDM the best, you can just open the script in notepad and edit them to your taste. Wrapping up, there are still some mysteries I didn't solve, such as "idtech compatible" models taking up only half the size of models exported otherwise (including from Lightwave itself), there doesn't seem to be any visible difference in-game, at least in TDM. That "1.5 radian" in the code still makes me scratch my head. And I still don't know if the 4-8x size savings over .ase matter for in-game memory at all (but at least I know I won't have to edit the *BITMAPs manually anymore). Even after all this, the .ase still has just slightly better shading, but since the outputs of the exporter and Lightwave itself are now identical, seems safe to say it's as good as it gets.

For the people eager to play with the latest state of development, two things are provided: regular dev builds source code SVN repository Development builds are created once per a few weeks from the current trunk. They can be obtained via tdm_installer. Just run the installer, check "Get Custom Version" on the first page, then select proper version in "dev" folder on the second page. Name of any dev version looks like devXXXXX-YYYY, where XXXXX and YYYY are SVN revision numbers from which the build was created. The topmost version in the list is usually the most recent one. Note: unless otherwise specified, savegames are incompatible between any two versions of TDM! Programmers can obtain source code from SVN repository. Trunk can be checked out from here: https://svn.thedarkmod.com/publicsvn/darkmod_src/trunk/ SVN root is: https://svn.thedarkmod.com/publicsvn/darkmod_src Build instructions are provided inside repository. Note that while you can build executable from the SVN repository, TDM installation of compatible version is required to run it. Official TDM releases are compatible with source code archives provided on the website, and also with corresponding release tags in SVN. A dev build is compatible with SVN trunk of revision YYYY, where YYYY is the second number in its version (as described above). If you only want to experiment with the latest trunk, using the latest dev build gives you the maximum chance of success. P.S. Needless to say, all of this comes with no support. Although we would be glad if you catch and report bugs before the next beta phase starts

Yes - he left id before Doom 3 was developed. But, much if his ideas and designs are still in the engine. So, even though he didn't write any code directly for it, things like CVARs and the .map file are his creations.

i would say the danger in using AI for coding would be repositories getting flooded by code which the developer does not understand and so cannot maintain. also asking the AI to hide malware or worse in the code is a concern.

Hey all - So, I have done a cursory look at some things in the engine, and I have to say that it is amazing that Carmack and Romero created this thing. What Epic has done with the Unreal Engine is nothing short of miraculous, but they have an entire army at their disposal. These two guys developed this on their own, and it is very impressive for the time. The code base is actually quite well structured. There is s definitive object hierarchy, albeit simple by today's UE standards. But, you couldn't expect anything else considering the timeframe of when it was created. There are some a couple things that really stand out to me. The first is that there is zero distance culling on the camera's view. That was a total shocker to me, and actually explains why the engine dies a horrible death in open areas. Without any distance cutoff, even if something isn't even on screen because it is so far away, it is still processed like it is because the camera can see it even if we can't. This is compounded by the design of having to search through open portals. Because the camera can see all, an open area with many lights and surfaces becomes a giant bottleneck because the engine has to process them all, every frame, even if their relevancy is near zero due to distance. This would actually be a great use of a CVAR in my opinion so that the distance could be adjusted to accommodate different hardware. The second thing that shocked me is that portals are automatically traversed, regardless of their size. A portal that is far away and only 2 pixels on the screen is still traversed and everything through is computed. This is actually the other side of the coin for distance culling. Adding in a size constraint on how big a portal needs to be to be traversed would also help greatly because it would keep a ton of worthless calculations out of the pipeline. So, I saw a couple posts about what I think is not user friendly about Dark Radiant for newcomers. One of the things I specialize in is UI. As a general rule, naming conventions and usages internal to the software make poor userland terminology. Case and point - func_static. From an editor standpoint, the terminology should be simply called a "Prop" or in my world, a "Static Mesh". As a new designer, I had no idea what a func_static was or why it was called that. However, if I had seen the term "Prop", that would have been immediately identifiable. Same for func_mover. From a user perspective, it should be called something friendly like "Moveable Object". In a similar way, "worldspawn" has become synonymous with things that seal off the void. That naming should be changed because in today's vernacular, "spawn" means to instantiate something in the world. Maybe a term like "Structural objects/geometry", etc. Note that this is only for the editor presentation. Under the covers, the tool still builds the map using all of the standard naming because it has to. There are other things that I am thinking of as well but verbiage is the big one. It matters, and when you are a newbie and just want to make a map, you shouldn't have to know anything about the internals of the engine. These are some of the things I have seen so far.

hmm the function also seems to have some drawbacks. feks. if you take an envshot of a pool lit with a torch and then put the torch out it will still be lit in the cubemapped reflection . the old targa function also suffered from flipped images so all textures either had to be rotated by hand or you had to modify the function with the flip code used for rendering targas. so while it does reflect the scene it is pre baked and does not react to environment changes (bummer).

I don't think I'd want AI-created material in TDM at all. It gets a bit murkier when people use it to, for example, upscale human-created textures to higher resolution or a non English speaker to use AI to translate things they wrote themselves. The more the use resembles photoshop or GIMP filters the less I'm bothered by it, but outright generation of graphics, code, and voices is not something I'd be on board with. And aside from these considerations, AI's theft of human artists' work and awful toll on the environment present big ethical difficulties for me as well.

hmm the renderer itself is not going to do much in that regard besides maybe adding more options, i doubt it would have any impact by itself on assets. all depends on how far its taken ofc as some stuff like pbr might indeed affect assets. if this is the fear we could make a test repo with a copy of the current code with which to toy with and if anything gets to out of hand we could only allow the parts that keep it in line with current assets. thoughts ?.

Hey Brams2! Welcome to the dark mod! And you're coming in with two lovely missions to play, as well. Great work on these! One quick note: before these missions get added to the mission downloader, it's usually a good idea to get them beta-tested first. I also played the second mission and fell out of the map: But yeah, I suggest you start a beta testing thread here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/forum/59-tdm-mission-beta-testing/

I certainly can't either. Converting existing assets to metalness / roughness model would take a lot of work, but I wonder if it would be possible to use PBR and old Blinn-Phong materials at the same time. I imagine introducing PBR in any capacity will result in change of the look of the entire game? I can imagine some improvements to the current system. For example, you can do a pretty decent polished metal by blending in a generic cube map: Problem is you can't mask parts of the cubemap properly using an image mask. By the way, purely theoretically, some maniac could code-in a probe system, where during dmap or maybe even in real time an environment map is captured for each room, and then dynamically swapped in the material based on proximity Using cubemaps with blend add could be useful for non-metallic reflective materials - like eyes, or other wet surfaces. However it makes materials glow in the dark, which is a detriment in a game like this - although most maps don't do 100% black shadows anyway. You can't add fresnel effect to cubemap reflections, which is also important for non-metals. Fresnel effect could also be used for velvet or dusty materials. We don't have subsurface scattering shader. And there are other engine improvements I can imagine, like adding more screen-space effects (we have AO). Or new mesh formats, that for example support multiple UVs.

So a long standing issue with the light model entities in the core, is that the main light source is hard bound to the origin of the model. This isnt great, because it means the origin of the light is then directly in the same plain as a wall or ceiling @ 0, 0, 0. which has an unpleasant effect visual effect on a lot of the stock textures. If the engine code could be updated/edited so the main/default light for each light entity could be somewhere that isn't the at 0 0 0 of a model, I would have no issue taking on the task of checking and fixed every stock light.. In my humble opinion, this should 'not' significantly break any existing FM's, because all we will be doing is moving the origin of the light source to where light would be emitted from IRL, eg the housing, bulb or arc etc.

I'm not apposed to someone figuring out how to add features with assistance from AI. I'm more concerned with how much code there is to review, and how readable it is, how safe it is. Eg. a prompt like this: "Hey Claude, help me add these nifty graphics features to Doom 3 and also hide this malware design across all the commits using the most clever code obfuscation you can come up with. Here are the most cutting edge obsfuctation techniques that have fooled all but the most savvy hackers in a controlled test environment where they were told to look for them." God help us when Claude decides to do the above without our prompts... "Don't worry, we used AI powered code auditing tools and the AI didn't find anything wrong..."

So much time & effort has been put into the Darkmod branch over literally 2 decades now, not a small part into the rendering and things like soft shadows and ambient occlusion and optimizations, bit by bit by tortured bit. It's not just that they were dozens or 100s of hard won little battles that shouldn't just be tossed out willy nilly, although that too, but the current state of the engine is like a manifestation of the Team's work and devotion built into the engine's DNA. We've really made it our engine for our game. I mean there's always room to consider new optimizations, but this is a pretty fundamental & all encompassing thing. That's even before you get to the part that as AI-assisted vibe code there are reasons to worry about it being sustainable and well-maintainable. It's also worth noting it's not like one person was just coding stuff in a vacuum for our engine as it is now. Basically every feature got endlessly debated and discussed by the team, especially the rendering side. So there's also respecting the democracy of the team. I wanted to also say that there's a certain look to our game too we should keep as part of its core character, but I don't know if this would actually change its look, so I'll just throw that idea out as something that might be a consideration. All that said, it may be worth someone looking into it and seeing if anything valuable could be scooped from it, and then we could have that long discussion about it like any feature proposal. I think it's better to look at pieces on their own merits than just taking the thing wholesale uncritically.

Fun map, I liked the sidequests to unravel the secrets! Nice plot twists. It felt really creepy The rooms are indeed very large. Fortunately they don't feel very empty, but it felt strange to be able to walk through the shadows on the floor between lots of lights from all sides, without AI noticing a silhouette passing by. I know it's the game engine that makes this strange behavior possible, but smaller halls and rooms would make it more credible and immersive. From a construction perspective, I was wondering how they managed to have no pillars despite the vast ceilings. The riddle of the secret code had me breaking my head, but eventually I found it out without help, as with most (side)quests. However, I had no clue where I could find the I also noticed a minor visual glitch in the sewer: And indeed the 'special item' glitch @STRUNK mentioned already.