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Now that I've finished The Black Parade, I'm definitely open to checking out more NewDark era missions. I want to see what other ideas are possible now that the Dark Engine has been unchained.

I'm also seeing an assertion failure, although it doesn't seem to have anything in common with what other people have posted. This appears at startup before the main window is shown, and appears to be fatal (attempting to Continue just produces the same assertion again). ASSERT INFO: ../src/aui/auibook.cpp(2270): assert "page_idx < m_tabs.GetPageCount()" failed in GetPage(). BACKTRACE: [1] wxAuiNotebook::GetPage(unsigned long) const [2] sigc::internal::signal_emit0<void, sigc::nil>::emit(sigc::internal::signal_impl*) [3] sigc::signal0<void, sigc::nil>::emit() const [4] module::ModuleRegistry::loadAndInitialiseModules() [5] radiant::Radiant::startup() [6] wxEvtHandler::ProcessEventIfMatchesId(wxEventTableEntryBase const&, wxEvtHandler*, wxEvent&) [7] wxEvtHandler::SearchDynamicEventTable(wxEvent&) [8] wxEvtHandler::TryHereOnly(wxEvent&) [9] wxEvtHandler::ProcessEventLocally(wxEvent&) [10] wxEvtHandler::ProcessEvent(wxEvent&) [11] wxEvtHandler::ProcessPendingEvents() [12] wxApp::DoIdle() [13] g_main_context_dispatch [14] g_main_loop_run [15] gtk_main [16] wxGUIEventLoop::DoRun() [17] wxEventLoopBase::Run() [18] wxAppConsoleBase::MainLoop() [19] wxEntry(int&, wchar_t**) [20] __libc_start_main More info from LLDB (since the built-in stacktrace seems to miss out a lot of function calls): frame #10: 0x00007ffff6a9eeca libwx_gtk3u_aui-3.0.so.0`wxAuiNotebook::GetPage(unsigned long) const + 106 frame #11: 0x0000555555d4f768 darkradiant`ui::PropertyNotebook::restoreState(this=0x000055555611c490) at PropertyNotebook.cpp:264:34 frame #12: 0x0000555555d3f7b6 darkradiant`ui::AuiLayout::restoreStateFromRegistry(this=0x0000555557179c10) at AuiLayout.cpp:654:36 frame #13: 0x0000555555d46817 darkradiant`ui::MainFrame::construct(this=0x00005555560c53a0) at MainFrame.cpp:271:38 frame #14: 0x0000555555d46680 darkradiant`ui::MainFrame::postModuleInitialisation(this=0x00005555560c53a0) at MainFrame.cpp:211:11 frame #15: 0x0000555555d4c024 darkradiant`sigc::bound_mem_functor0<void, ui::MainFrame>::operator(this=0x0000555556cd1258)() const at mem_fun.h:1991:48 frame #16: 0x0000555555d4ba80 darkradiant`sigc::adaptor_functor<sigc::bound_mem_functor0<void, ui::MainFrame> >::operator(this=0x0000555556cd1250)() const at adaptor_trait.h:256:20 frame #17: 0x0000555555d4b22c darkradiant`sigc::internal::slot_call<sigc::bound_mem_functor0<void, ui::MainFrame>, void>::call_it(rep=0x0000555556cd1220) at slot.h:483:35 frame #18: 0x0000555555aec9e2 darkradiant`sigc::internal::signal_emit0<void, sigc::nil>::emit(impl=0x0000555556a31300) at signal.h:798:79 frame #19: 0x0000555555aee4a8 darkradiant`sigc::signal0<void, sigc::nil>::emit(this=0x0000555556163398) const at signal.h:2804:32 frame #20: 0x00007fffeba2acfb libradiantcore.so`module::ModuleRegistry::loadAndInitialiseModules(this=0x0000555556163320) at ModuleRegistry.cpp:192:32 frame #21: 0x00007fffeba8bc87 libradiantcore.so`radiant::Radiant::startup(this=0x00005555562af760) at Radiant.cpp:97:58 frame #22: 0x0000555555be315f darkradiant`RadiantApp::onStartupEvent(this=0x00005555560a4660, ev=0x00005555562dc8d0) at RadiantApp.cpp:230:30 This is the actual line of code which fails in PropertyNotebook.cpp. It seems that existingIndex is actually -1 here.

Hi. The OpenTouchGaming team, which I represent, would like to know the developers' opinion about the TDM port on android devices. How will they react to the fact that their game will be transferred to portable devices? Would they mind? In what form would they like to see their project; an APK that downloads everything need by itself? Or Just an APK with an engine?(the user himself must upload the necessary data to his device) I'm not a developer, but I know he can port a lot of games to android. Ports of Doom and Quake are already available, as well as ports of games on the Build engine. We also know about rendering, it will not be as easy to do it as with Doom 3, and it will require more resources in hardware. We believe that someday "darkness will cover the staffers with its veil" and on the mobile platform. This is not an announcement of a finished project, but just the beginning of development, if there is something to show in future, I will definitely post it here. Thanks and see in the shadows.

Hello everyone, Bikerdude's made significant updates to this mission and it's now fully playable in 2.08. Available in the in-game downloader or Download here! We'll update the OP to reflect this. Thanks! “I usually welcome the shadows, a place of refuge for a master thief like me. However, there are dark places that even I fear. That place being the plague ward at the edge of town. Rumour has it that it was cursed by a pagan witch and its inhabitants died from an incurable plague..." Build Time: Update Build Time: Original version - 3-4 weeks. Updated version - 2 days  Credits: Flanders - Prebuilt maps and textures Readables – SirTaffsalot. FeildMedic - ghost begger (which I fixed and updated). Springheel - jack-o-lantern (gotta have them)  Thanks:- Special thanks to my beta testers: Flanders, SirTaffsAlot, nbhormore, Pranqster, RPGista, Thor, Xarg, Glyph Seeker, Amadeus, Garret42 & Bluerat.

I'm the developer of AngelLoader, a fan mission loader/manager for Thief 1/2/3/SS2. I recently decided to try adding Dark Mod support. The latest release is here: https://github.com/FenPhoenix/AngelLoader/releases I'm going to keep a log of issues, ideas, notes, etc. here and we can discuss them or whatnot. If anyone has ideas or suggestions, feel free to post them here. TDM version requirement: I've only tested it with TDM 2.11. I'm not sure but I dimly remember FMs used to be stored differently at some point in the past? If so, it wouldn't work with those older versions. I assume people would normally keep their TDM install up to date, but just a heads up. How it works: In the Settings window -> Paths tab, choose your Dark Mod executable. Click OK. Now your TDM FMs will be detected, scanned, and added to the list. For the other supported games, there is the concept of "installed" vs "not installed", this is because they normally come in archive files and then the loader can "install" them (extract the file into the "installed FMs" folder). For TDM there is no such concept (FMs are always installed), so the green checkmark "installed" indicator means that that FM is the currently selected one (the one that is loaded up when you start TDM), and only one TDM FM can be "selected" at a time. This indicator is kept in sync with the game, so if you change your selected FM inside TDM, AngelLoader will update its "selected" indicator in-app. Notes & Issues: Deleting FMs: Deleting TDM FMs is not supported yet. I notice TDM itself doesn't allow you to delete FMs either; it has been noted that people have accidentally lost their data and so the option was removed. AngelLoader puts files into the recycle bin when it deletes them, and I could add the option, but figured it was okay to leave it out initially since the game doesn't let you do it either. Note, though, that you can still delete TDM FMs from AngelLoader's database if you've manually deleted the actual FM from disk first. To do this, first click the "Show only unavailable FMs" button (red X page icon on the top bar). Last Played and Finished-On-Difficulty: Finished-on difficulty is now autodetected. Last played date is taken from the game's database only if AngelLoader doesn't have one in its own (its own is more granular). In the FMs folder, there is a file missions.tdminfo which stores certain pieces of data about FMs. Included among this data is which difficulty the mission has been finished on, and the last played date (down to the day only). AngelLoader also stores this information, but it doesn't get these values from this file at the moment. Instead, the last played date (down to the instant, not just the day) is set whenever an FM is started, and the finished-on state must be set manually. I could have it watch the file for changes and update the finished-on-difficulty automatically for the current FM. This would override the user setting, but in theory should be accurate anyway. I could also auto-update the last played date, but because it's only down to the day, that would be less optimal than just setting it on FM start, which would give a more granular date and would have sorting working better. So if you played two FMs in one day, the latest played one would sort at the top. Mods tab is disabled: For NewDark games, there is built-in support for mods, and they can be enabled or disabled per-FM in an official capacity. I've disabled the Mods tab for TDM because - from a cursory look anyway - I don't think there's such a per-FM method of mod management. Language selection is disabled: In the Edit FM tab, there's an option to choose which language to play an FM with. I've disabled it for TDM because there's a language option in-game (not the case with NewDark) and I haven't looked into how I would scan a TDM FM for supported languages anyway. "Play Without FM" Option: For the other games, there is the option (in the bottom bar) to play them with no FM. For TDM there is no such thing as "no FM", but the option is still there currently. It will simply start TDM without passing it anything, and whatever FM it has selected will be there. I might remove the option since it doesn't really make sense. This might make people wonder "where's the button for TDM" but on the other hand having it isn't really useful. Not sure. Mission downloading and updating: An in-app mission downloader is in progress. There is no mission downloader or anything like that currently. It simply lists what you've got on disk. This means that to get new FMs or check for updates to existing ones, you still have to go in-game. I don't know how people feel about the convenience factor of this, having to go in-game to get your FMs and then back out to AngelLoader. However, duplicating the TDM download functionality would mean it might well break if TDM ever changes anything about its downloader. Custom resource stats: In the Statistics tab, custom resource display is disabled for TDM. I haven't looked into what sort of "custom" things a TDM FM can have and how I can detect them. I may do this in the future.

The Builder's Blocks The time has come for my unusual gameplay fm to be released! Important! Please read this before you play the map. You will be playing a mini-game in this map. This mini-game alters the mouse sensitivity setting when you start it, so be sure to click on the 'leave' button in-map before exiting the game. Failure to do so means that you must reset the mouse setting manually and then restart the map. Since this is a map for the unusual gameplay contest the gameplay is unusual (not surprisingly). Do not expect a normal Dark Mod mission. Link(s) (post mirrors, and I will add them here): https://www.dropbox....ders_blocks.pk4 Screenshot of someone playing with a prototype of the game: A big thanks to my beta testers (in alphabetical order): jaxa nborh1more Obsttorte PPoe without whom many features would never have seen the light of day.

I'd like to ask a (hopefully) easier favor from the DR devs on this, considering it's such an issue and making me struggle to keep mapping normally. I know the root issue seems to rely on WxWidgets and may not be solvable on our end, but at least one part of it I consistently run into should be. Like I said I can initially avoid the problem by exporting the "GDK_BACKEND=x11" variable in my shortcut, this makes it go away for the 2D and 3D viewports and only persist in the model viewers which I can care less about. There's just one exception: The moment I press X to use the clipper tool and cut a brush, the 2D view starts experiencing the issue and becomes impossible to drag normally. Because of this I need to avoid using the clipper as much as possible, and whenever I have to in order to get a triangle brush I must restart Radiant immediately after. Would it be possible to figure out what the clipper does that's so unique to triggers this? Does using it reset the 2D views and somehow gets them reloaded by Wayland? If yes could this be avoided so in the meantime it doesn't break that workaround? If at least this can be solved and the GDK_BACKEND workaround keeps otherwise working, it will be a lot easier to wait for the proper full fix. Sorry for the annoyance with this... just want to make some good FM's and using DR this way is running on a handicap that makes the already complex process of mapping even slower.

In the first post of the other topic Geep proposed: Then Stgatilov's answer: But I think applying subtitles in different languages shouldn't be too hard I would think, but I don't know how the current translation system works. The engine should apply the correct subtitles based on the applied language setting, this doesn't need a whole new language system I think. Not sure who's going to write those subtitles though. I can only do Dutch and English and nobody needs Dutch I think. I suggest further discussion of this to take place in topic https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21741-subtitles-possibilities-beyond-211/

Anyone have a working link (or can create a link) to the modified version of ExportFontToDoom3 executable? This 2009 version was created by Crispy, to handle 256 chars instead of just 128. It was released in this forum post: the dark mode readables ttf fonts The following links to it are now dead: - crispy's original release: http://www.inventivedingo.com/stuff/exportfonttodoom3_modified.zip This is what's listed at the bottom of Font Conversion & Repair as as "Fixed version of ExportFontToDoom". - Hyeron's 2009 upload: http://www.4shared.com/file/151870191/d47d0e16/exportfonttodoom3_modified.html - tels 2011 mirror: http://bloodgate.com/mirrors/tdm/pub/exportfonttodoom3_modified.zip. No luck with wayback machine, github, sourceforge, either .exe or source. (Source & exe for unmodified version from Grant Davies is in hand.)

btw. if you still happen to have an artic freezer extreme rev.2 dont throw it out. despite being a midrange cooler it actually cools very very well (actually beat my dark rock slim cooler Oo) and its extremely quiet too. the rev.2 model also fits on lga 2011.v3 sockets and has a bigger base compared with the rev.1. it also handles some modest overclocking quite well. the upside compared to the dark rock is that it is a dual tower cooler so it has a bit more cooling area while still being slim compared to the dark rock pro and noctua nh-up15 which are pretty massive. performs best in a well vented case but thats true for all coolers.

So I got back to my desktop and installed the dark mod 2.09a, but when I start it I get a gray screen for a couple of seconds then a black screen. I can hear the music and the menu sounds when I move my mouse but I can't see anything. I tried some things from what I could see in the forums but nothing worked. I have a pretty old GPU but it should run it no problem I believe (a Radeon hd 4850). Things i tried: -Downloading the latest dev build -Downloading the build test15973-8787 -changing glcore from 2 to 1 and to 0 -changing the resolution to 800x600 -starting it in compatibility mode windows 7 -changing glsl -changing shadow to 0 - downloading an executable posted by stgatilov in a post about the same problem (I can't find it anymore) None of this worked and the log file doesn't show any issues. Any idea how to fix this or if I need an older version, because I believe the GPU should be able to launch the game properly at least?

oops nope its a single step lacking for the make routine [ 98%] Building CXX object radiant/CMakeFiles/darkradiant.dir/xyview/tools/MeasurementTool.cpp.o [ 98%] Building CXX object radiant/CMakeFiles/darkradiant.dir/xyview/XYWnd.cpp.o [ 99%] Linking CXX executable darkradiant /usr/bin/ld: //usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgio-2.0.so.0: undefined reference to `g_utf8_validate_len' /usr/bin/ld: //usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgio-2.0.so.0: undefined reference to `g_source_set_dispose_function' /usr/bin/ld: //usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgio-2.0.so.0: undefined reference to `g_unix_get_passwd_entry' collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status make[2]: *** [radiant/CMakeFiles/darkradiant.dir/build.make:2669: radiant/darkradiant] Error 1 make[1]: *** [CMakeFiles/Makefile2:1008: radiant/CMakeFiles/darkradiant.dir/all] Error 2 make: *** [Makefile:130: all] Error 2 but you DEVeNIGHTly solved the -dev problems

Creating a new thread for this as it was being discussed in an old beta-testing thread starting here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21822-beta-testing-high-expectations/&do=findComment&comment=490751 I suppose the main questions are: when should this spawnarg be used, if at all? why was it introduced in the first place? Can we get it documented properly on the Wiki so misuse isn't propagated? @stgatilov @Dragofer

Public release v1.7.6 (with Dark Mod support) is out. Improvements since the final beta 14 are: Fixed a few remaining bugs with zip/pk4 support. Game Versions window now properly displays TDM version. Import window no longer has a vestigial off-screen TDM field (because TDM doesn't need or support importing). Web search option is now disabled if an unknown/unsupported FM is selected. If an FM with an unknown or unsupported game type is selected, the messages in the tab area now no longer refer to Thief 3 ("Mod management is not supported for Thief: Deadly Shadows"). The full changelog can be viewed at the release link. The de facto official AngelLoader thread is here: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149706 Bug reports, feature requests etc. are usually posted there. I'll continue following this thread though. Thanks everyone and enjoy!

I'm pleased to announce my first ever mission, The Factory Heist. If you're in the mood for a short but challenging and intricate mission I'm confident you'll have some fun with this. Title: The Factory Heist Short description: Workers at a factory have unearthed a buried building beneath. Sneak in, find a way down there, and loot it for antique treasure! Filename: factoryheist.pk4, now also available on the in-game downloader Author: thebigh Date of Release: 12 September 2020 Version: 1.0 EAX: No Dark Mod Version: 2.08 Content warning: No spiders, no undead, no rats, just one skeleton hand Many thanks to my beta testers: Cambridge Spy, Vanished One, Wesp5, PranQster. Be sure to read the little book in Lukas Dunbar's office Screenshot: Help, I can't reach the loot goal:

I'm working on a new project: The Dark Mod Launcher. Its an application launcher for users/beginners who have difficulties to, run TDM (using start-arguments) and solving TDM operatingsystem errors. First it was made for the new tdm-installer mac, as a launcher to run TDM and the updater inside one application-container. But now i want to expand it, to do more things. Tdm launcher will come in two versions: Lite version: run TDM and TDM-updater.run TDM and TDM-updater with commandline arguments.Normal version - More advanced version run TDM and TDM-updater.run TDM and TDM-updater with commandline arguments.Ideas: screen resolution tester, application logger, Mission remover (outside TDM), etc.Download the work-in-progress-version of the lite or standard version from my google drive and extract the executable in your tdm-folder. Sourcecode of these versions will be publisched on my github repo and google drive) This launcher is inspired by darkloader, thief 4 setup and tdminstaller-win. Are other things you want to add to this launcher?

Hello! Tracking down information on software and plug-ins that work with D3 / TDM can be a tough. So I have created a thread here where people can post what software/ plug-ins/ tutorials or other references they've had success or failure with in TDM. 3DS MAX 2013 64bit .ase - Default .ASE model exporter works. However you have to open the .ase file in text edit and manual change the *BITMAP line on each material to read something like: "//base/textures/common/collision" which allows the engine to read the correct material path. md5.mesh / animation - Beserker's md5 exporter/importers for 3dsmax. http://www.katsbits.com/tools, Importing and exporting works. The model must be textured, UV'd, with a skin modifier attached to the bones to export. PM me (Kingsal) for help with this. Imported models using the script will not be weighted appropriately, so this is not recommended if you are simply trying to edit existing tdm content. (Use blender instead) MAYA 2011 32bit md5.mesh - So far I've not had any luck with Maya 2011. I am using Greebo's MayaImportx86 for Maya 2011. I've got the importer working however I get a "Unexpected Internal Failure(kFailure)" and the import fails. This could be due to something finicky in Maya that I am not doing correctly. Will keep trying.. Blender 2.7 about - Blender is commonly used and pretty well supported on the forums/ wiki. Various versions may work as well - https://www.blender.org/download/ md5.mesh / animation Blender MD5 importer/exporter (io_scene_md5.zip): https://sourceforge.net/projects/blenderbitsbobs/files/ Sotha's guide Blender Male/ Female rigs by Arcturus - Here Edit by Dragofer: more links found in this post.

sadly for my part even the most ellaborate workarounds were a nogo at the time, and believe me i tried... select packages might be avaliable if they behave but as a general rule no as far as i can see. isolation might have a grating sound to some who likes to have all software availiable (even if it is not built for say this kinda gui GTK/KDE) but for the most part the flatpak versions work just fine without messing up system libraries, hell i can even autostart packages like greenwithenvy (GTK) on the plasma version (KDE) with a trip into system settings. where it mostly fails is with themes if you use say the dark theme it might not work in that particular app atm, but they are working on it. XFCE is a personal favorite here to, it is lean fast and looks quite good, the Solus version is currently in beta so not sure how well it runs ?. Im using the plasma desktop version myself . I also quite like OpenBox despite not being used in many distros, like XFCE it is lean and fast but lacks a bit of options for controlling things from the desktop by itself requiering knowledge most users dont have to setup the juicy parts.

We are proud to announce the release of The Dark Mod 2.09! https://www.thedarkmod.com/posts/the-dark-mod-2-09-has-been-released/ TDM 2.09 marks a new phase of performance improvements aimed lowering CPU overhead in the graphics engine. A whole new graphic backend has been created by Cabalistic which uses modern OpenGL features to eliminate the need for the CPU to constantly issue commands to allow the Graphic Processor to render scenes. This gives TDM some of the performance advantages of rendering using a low level API like Vulkan. Stgatilov has been very busy this release cycle. He has put heroic efforts into improving the way that TDM upgrades and hosting operate in addition to the vast improvements to TDM itself. (He also refactored the entire particle engine and created a link system to connect TDM to Dark Radiant.) A full changelog can be viewed here, but some highlights include: Better performance: A brand new Backend that uses UBO, Persistent Mapping, Bindless textures, and Multi-Draw has been added. “Frontend Acceleration” (Multi-Core job based rendering based on Doom 3 BFG) now works as expected. Normal Map compression now uses RGTC resulting in lower storage, VRAM requirements, and less artifacts ( load times should improve in future TDM versions when pre-compressed RGTC textures are added ) Background texture loading has improved. This should shorten load times and reload. Better visuals: A new Sharpening Filter has been added. It can make 70% Render Scale look almost like native resolution (more performance). ( It also cleans up some blurry textures for all Render Scales. ) Bumpmap lighting is smoother, so that lighting does not instantly flip to off when getting close to edges of occluded objects. Particle physics have been substantially improved for both accuracy and performance. Borderless Fullscreen works properly on Windows. Water and other GUI effects that did not respond to Gamma now brighten properly. AMD and Intel fixes have been added for SSAO rendering Better gameplay: Experimental Gamepad support has been added. Creep works in alway-run mode Better mapping: A new linking system allows The Dark Mod to act as a real-time preview of Dark Radiant The redesigned particles now have improved setup and configuration. Automated fixes have been created for “rotation hacked” models Prefabs have been seen numerous fixes and reorganization to make them easier to use Better Sound: Conversation and other sounds are no longer stopped by saving or going to main menu. EFX reverb has been added to “Mission 1: A New Job” Extinguished gas lamps are no longer noisy when doused New Assets: Dragofer, LDAsh, Kingsal, Bikerdude, Dram have all added substantial asset updates ranging from updated Werebeast animations, animation of the steam engine, fireflies and new furniture. More stable: A huge number of fragile code areas have been overhauled to either fix crashes or prevent likely crashes due to risk of divide by zero, uninitialized values, or dangling pointers (leftover settings) on entities and functions. We recommend that you upgrade using the new “tdm_installer” available here. Please be aware that old saved games will not be compatible with 2.09, so finish any missions you might be in the middle of first!

Hi, Ive been taffing away for years but have taken a forced hiatus, due to some over zealous hammers, but am now back. Anyway Im having some issues installing The Dark Mod and last night tryied twice but both times failed with missing 'chunks' ? or some error similair. Toaday it seems to be going along ok , 27 mins left but i notice on task manager that it keeps hanging ! Not Responding !!! but a few seconds pass and its flicks to Responding again, but this is occuring every 10 secs or so... what gives ?

Ok that's why, it's not on the gitlab site. https://gitlab.com/orbweaver/DarkRadiant/-/tree/master/radiant/xyview?ref_type=heads So, I did do the checkout of the Master branch on your Gitlab repo, and tried compiling that on Windows with VS2022. So not sure where to go from here.

Yeah that's weird, as that source file is right there in the source code tree: https://github.com/codereader/DarkRadiant/tree/master/radiant/xyview Maybe I did the checkout process wrong.

Just wondering who the most infamous Necromancer is lorewise. Was there a founder in the art of Necromancy, like a Lich or something, similar to Nagash in Warhammer or the Lich King in Warcraft? Some sort of evil magician gathering power in a far off land, building his legions for a showdown with the Empire?

VA would be a great panel tech for dark games like The Dark Mod as well, if there wouldn't be the drawback of the slow pixel reaction times, especially in dark scenes (which leads to ugly smearing with moving objects). Unfortunately, it is not even guaranteed with more premium models, as far as I've always read. The only decent monitor in that regard that I've seen is the Samsung Odyssey G7. It's curved though, and that's another issue with VA monitors: They're mostly curved. Again, I think, for now, IPS is the best compromise, if you can get a panel with good contrast ratio, and happen to be lucky with a low amount of IPS glow in your specific model. I also think IPS is the most versatile, because, apart from being decent for gaming, it's also good for image or video editing, if you get one with good colour space coverage. For the future, OLED is surely the way to go, if they go for a cheaper price. That said, burn in still seems to be an issue with OLEDs. As @Xolvix wrote, all panel techs have their pros and cons.