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ttlg - stuck in the past...


Bikerdude
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TDS the dark side of the Force, not TDS the horrible-ish game that was foisted upon us so many years ago and did nothing for my desire for a new and better Thief.

 

And, only insomuch as TDM is seductive and powerful in a "dark" way...I was only making a Force reference, not meaning to step on any toesies. And since you have, what, eight legs, Ungoliant? You've got a lot of toes to step on.

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only 8. most peoples have 10 :P. Yes thankfully I presume most believe TDM to be far superior to TDS. Many on the Eidos T4 forums are basically relaying a message of "That's how its done, son" to EM in regards to T4 with respect to TDM. Makes me wonder if teh tHi4F flops hard, if we won't see a C&D order soon after. Jealousy is a bitch. Then again, companies that create vaporware would do well to keep their mouths shut in the first place. Thi4f may never even get released, if current trends are anything to go by, making TDM the only (current) option for new-gen thieving. You won't see me complaining ^_^

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only 8. most peoples have 10 :P. Yes thankfully I presume most believe TDM to be far superior to TDS. Many on the Eidos T4 forums are basically relaying a message of "That's how its done, son" to EM in regards to T4 with respect to TDM. Makes me wonder if teh tHi4F flops hard, if we won't see a C&D order soon after. Jealousy is a bitch. Then again, companies that create vaporware would do well to keep their mouths shut in the first place. Thi4f may never even get released, if current trends are anything to go by, making TDM the only (current) option for new-gen thieving. You won't see me complaining ^_^

 

What's a C&D order? If cease and desist, then "would they be so petty?" Probably, I guess. Sheesh. Hadn't thought of that.

 

And: I hope Thief4 (or Thorf, as I like to call it) isn't a flop, and I hope they don't call it "Thorf" either. I wish they'd call it Thief: Deadly Darkness (:P) over Thi4f anyday. Anyhoo, I've played nothing but good releases from Eidos Montreal so far: the Thief, Tomb Raider, Hitman, & Deus Ex series are among my top favorite games of all time, so I hope EM does it right and doesn't force me to "boil their toes in oil" over this... {<---figure of speech}. I haven't played any of the other series, so I can't comment on them.

 

How hard is it to get a game right? I don't understand it. Must be a "marketing percentage" thing...has to be. Or, bad intel...curse of the gods...krappy karma...evil ninjas...nega-spidey (he gets blamed for a lot)...Osama Bin Laden (oh, wait, he's got a ventilated cranium...)...I'm out of options. Somebody must be out to get us. Can't be coincidence.

 

Edit: Oh, and I am hoping TDM is nothing short of fantastic. I have a tremendous backlog of game (series) I'm trying to catch up on, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. And my Thief-itch is back with a vengeance, so I'll take Doom 3/TDM for a spin and see what happens. Of course, I'm currently stuck on Metro 2033 right now. Awesome game, but I can only replay it so many times....

Edited by Hit Deity
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Is there any reason to post over there any more, each time I have released a map and post it over there the response if very lackluster, if I was pessimistic I would say tdm is lost on them...

 

<_<

 

And to answer the original question: Not really, not that I see, anyway. Not unless I happen to stumble across a "new" FM release and want to ask questions or give a little praise. I have nothing but fond memories of Thief, but it's time to upgrade.

 

And if "being stuck in the past" means desiring to play a great game with awesome atmosphere, great stories, and stellar gameplay, then yes, I am firmly rooted in the past. Of all the games since Thief, Metro 2033 has been the only one to even come close to anything resembling stealth for me. You can stealth about 80% of that game, by my estimation, and I could probably do more. Now that's saying something from a contemporary release. Yeah, they force to "rail gun" some sequences (there's no way around it), but it's actually fun, in a Half-Life 2 sorta way, but the majority of "single-player" areas with humans can be stealthed. I just wish they had added more ways to stealth the mutated creature AIs in the game, instead of forcing confrontations. So, maybe 50% of the game is stealthable, but it doesn't really feel that little. Maybe I'm just biased. Best game I've played in a long time though.

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Thorf. I like it. :laugh:

 

Talking of other games, I'm currently playing Witcher 2 a not-bad rpg but again and again it reinforces what TDM has achieved: subtle easy to use inventory items, real climb anywhere physics (instead of knee jerk press a button and invisible "you can't go that way" walls just everywhere) frob highlighting (instead of a disconnected unreliable icon even when you can't see what it applies to,) real dead bodies instead of them immediately being hoovered out of the way. I only just realised they leave behind in the undergrowth anything they carried, eg, the critical key I've been searching for. This is not to knock W2 but to emphasise that TDM is up there with the best recent games imo and better in many respects.

 

Now ... back to W2! :P

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. Of all the games since Thief, Metro 2033 has been the only one to even come close to anything resembling stealth for me.

I should really give Metro 2033 a spin finally. After all, I upgrade my graphics card to an EVGA Geforce 560 Ti Superclocked recently, so I should be good to go. :) It's supposed to be short right? I can't afford to play a long game at the moment, as I have a closing date to meet in 7 weeks. After that, I can finally live again! :D

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I'd say it's pretty short. The learning curve is a little steep, at first, but I got over it pretty quickly and I don't consider myself a very good gamer. It just takes a little effort. They really nailed the claustrophobic aspect pretty good, with a greatly-reduced FOV that makes you really think about what you're trying to see in the game world. And the whole gasmask mechanic is a little annoying at first, but after my third playthrough, I don't even notice them anymore. And the game is considerably easier now that I know what to expect and how the game works, as opposed to trying to play it like other games.

 

I don't usually replay games anymore, unless they're just really good, and I think Metro 2033 is a work of art. Yes, it's a little rough around the edges, and the AI can be a little dull from time to time, but even with it's checkpoint save system (thank goodness it's about every 5 minutes) it's not so bad. And as linear as the game is, I have enjoyed taking the direct assault approach sometimes, and then happily reloading to try to do the same part in a stealthy manner.

 

My one bit of advice: It depends on how you plan to play the game, I guess, is how much you'll get out of it. And I'm not really referring to the stealth vs. assault aspect either. If you are willing to put a little effort into it and stick with it, I'll say it's worth it. But if you are just looking for a quick diversion, you will probably miss a lot, so take that for what it's worth. The game is simple enough to let you breeze through it, but at the same time, it has a lot of depth and variation that can make you want to explore more and find out what's under the hood.

 

Some tidbits: **slight spoiler/gameplay development revelations** (are there any spoiler tags on this thing?) I didn't realize you had to over-pressurize the pneumatic weapons to get the full benefit from them. I kept running out of ammo, only to realize after an endless amount of retries that there are several combinations of weapons that are virtually "unlimited" (combine reusable ammo with pneumatic projectile weapons and you see where I'm going). Several beasts have specific weapons that deal quite handily with them (others, you can spend hours dying repeatedly and get nowhere). Invest in silencer-equipped weapons! They are worth their weight in gold. Pick one or two weapons to focus on and sell all the other ammunition to be able to afford the "good weapons and armor". Speaking of armor: getting the armored suit is a waste of time...spend your money on the stealth suit -- you only get one opportunity to buy one, so don't pass it up or you will regret it! It makes getting hit something you don't have to worry about until the very end of the game...then buy the heavy armor. Sheesh, this freakin' thing needs to come with an instruction book! There are about 5 places in the game that you really need to have a certain weapon, armor, or ammo type and there won't be any mention of it in the game...sure, you can still beat it, but you will die a lot and be frustrated often. Okay, maybe it was just me, but after learning several of these basic tenets, I was having a less-than-enjoyable time. Some balancing and tweaking points were missed.

 

With that being said, it is definitely worth it. Trust me. The story, characters and atmosphere are unforgettable. The graphics are nothing short of amazing and runs just fine on a decent system. If you have to, run it in DX9. It still looks amazing. DX11 just makes you piss your pants. Okay, the story could use a little work, some plot holes plugged, but it's still pretty good. If anyone knows of another game that looks this graphically intense, please let me know. I was floored by this one. I bought it for $10 on Steam one day on sale, but it's definitely worth $20.

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@Hit Deity

 

Thanks for the info - I think I'll give it another go - I felt a bit non plussed at the on-rails shooter section, wher I felt like I'd messed up.

"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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No problem. I almost gave up on it a couple of times and was glad when I stuck with it.

 

(Someone else summed it up on another forum and it made sense to me; and I paraphrase: ) "The main problem with Metro 2033 is that it tries to be a lot of different things and really only succeeds well at a few of them, which is, thankfully for us, enough."

 

It's a great game, and one that has gotten better the more I play it. If I can "master" it, then I think anyone can, really. I'm not completely ecstatic about the ending (last two levels), but I realize they had to wrap it up and bring everything to a close. It just seems "tacked on".

 

If it helps (it did for me): I had to think of it as "This is the actiony part, so go into combat mode. This is the real, playable part with lots of depth, have fun, try different things. Oops, back to weird mutant, full-on assault part. Just get past it, just get past it... It keeps flip-flopping from rail shooter to stealthy-tactical areas. It definitely keeps the game from being "stuck in a slow, grinding rut" that's for sure. My 3rd or 4th playthrough: I realized you could kinda go along for the ride a lot of times during the rail and shoot areas, avoiding damage and just plunking a few enemies here and there for show and the game let me continue on to the next part. It's more forgiving the more I play and learn about it

 

And I've played it a couple of weeks now, and except for revisiting it from time to time, I'm "done" with it. I just wanted to re-do a lot of sections that I "survived" the first time. Now I'm "living" them! There aren't too many games that are this engrossing anymore, and it was a nice side-treat for a little while. I'll definitely replay it at some point (which is saying a lot, really, since many, many games just get deleted after a certain time has passed), but it won't suck away 3 months of your life (or more!), so I recommend it highly! :D

Edited by Hit Deity
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The biggest shortcoming of TDM at the moment is the somewhat stiff animation of the guards and the combat gameplay. While everything is obviously functional, it just feels "better" to shoot arrows or engage in swordplay in T2 than TDM. Backstabbing, headshots, duels -- T2 does it better. Now one could argue about the importance of this in a stealth game, but I have found that knowing those options are there creates a more complete experience.

 

TDM wins in so many other areas, I just hope this can be addressed in future releases. Yes, I KNOW it is difficult to find good animators who are willing to donate their time. I am just trying to give you guys some honest feedback from a player.

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The combat animations are not terribly good, I'll admit (and they look worse than they are because the leg channel is controlled by the code rather than the animation), but I don't know what that has to do with archery or backstabbing.

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Everything feels "clunky" in TDM. My character slides around on some of the terrain, gets stuck in some really strange areas, and the most annoying of all: I can't judge distance/scale in TDM as well as I would like. I'm assuming time will be a big factor, and I will have to "get used to it", but it almost feels like a FOV problem. I might try changing that a little and see what happens. Things just seem "distorted" at times. So far, I'm not being drawn in, but I will try some different things to see what happens.

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My character slides around on some of the terrain

 

A couple maps use slippery ice, but otherwise that should never happen.

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I can't judge distance/scale in TDM as well as I would like. ... it almost feels like a FOV problem. I will try some different things to see what happens.

I was very pleased with the movement right from the start. But like you I wasn't comfortable with the FOV and bow aiming at the beginning. Since I do set g_fov 85 in autoexec and use Dram's excellent bow-aimer add-in the distance and aiming do feel spot on to me.

"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

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Surprising. Feels solid to me and one of the big attractions for me is the movement over rough terrain. Better than any game I've ever played. Gives me a great sense of confidence and control. And if you ever get stuck in an angle first try turning and mantling in different directions. This mostly gets me out and feels natural to me - like wriggling and squirming - not immersion breaking normally. If truly stuck which is not often, then noclip solves everything. By comparison in Thief there were many situations I was totally stuck and no way out but quickload.

 

Probably time will make it all feel more natural for you. Perhaps it is being used to Thief movement that makes it seem odd. :)

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Getting stuck is often a problem that the mapper didn't put clip brush around objects that are sticking out like furniture and lights. This is something that should be drilled into them for anything that the player could possibly move by.

 

The biggest shortcoming of TDM at the moment is ... the combat gameplay. ... -- T2 does it better.

 

As for the animations TDM could use some polishing. But the actual swordplay in T2 was really basic. Now that we can see it in the sourcecode, it's essentially a very simple contact-check that adds damage as a function of the angle of attack (the more oblique, the less damage), and the guard responses were also relatively basic; but it didn't go into near the detail of sparring that TDM goes into, with the different kinds of slashes & parries. So the mechanic I think is better in TDM, it could just use some polish on the presentation.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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There wasn't any ice that I could see, just gentle slopes, and everything was just skittering around like crazy. Unless the slope was much greater than it appeared onscreen, but we're talking spiders' bodies sliding downhill, stuff just rolling around all over the place and sliding downhill on gentle slopes...no ice though.

 

I was very pleased with the movement right from the start. But like you I wasn't comfortable with the FOV and bow aiming at the beginning. Since I do set g_fov 85 in autoexec and use Dram's excellent bow-aimer add-in the distance and aiming do feel spot on to me.

 

I'll try the fov change shortly. Can anyone point me in the direction of this Dram's excellent bow-aimer?

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we're talking spiders' bodies sliding downhill...

Can anyone point me in the direction of this Dram's excellent bow-aimer?

Really strange about the movement - ... after TDS the dunken Thief TDM is such a huge relief in the feel of movement.

 

Dram's bow aimer

"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

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but we're talking spiders' bodies sliding downhill, stuff just rolling around all over the place and sliding downhill on gentle slopes...no ice though.

 

That doesn't make sense at all. :huh: What mission were you playing?

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does sound pretty weird. The Rift has got some spiders on small slopes in the caves, but I never recall seeing them roll down them, and that rock never felt greasy to me.

 

is it always the same texture on the ground, or is it all textures?

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Wasn't there an issue with removing the 60 fps barrier? Something like offset timing and screwed-up physics?

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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There wasn't any ice that I could see, just gentle slopes, and everything was just skittering around like crazy. Unless the slope was much greater than it appeared onscreen, but we're talking spiders' bodies sliding downhill, stuff just rolling around all over the place and sliding downhill on gentle slopes...no ice though.

 

This is definitely not normal TDM behavior. :unsure:

 

If you bring down the console, and type com_fixedtic, what is it set to? This sounds exactly like com_fixedtic being set to 1. It should be 0.

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I saw this myself the other day. I was testing something else so no time to investigate. On killing a guard he slid all the way down a grassy slope. But the slope wasn't slippy for either AI or the player to walk on.

 

 

com_fixedtic is currently 0. Can't be sure what it was the other day but I've never changed it intentionally. I never heard of it before.

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