ttlg - stuck in the past...

[Shadowhide]

Fidcal: What about to remake your Night Watch FM for TDM? Perhaps, this won't be as interested as this was long time ago, but, I believe, this will be a step in the right direction: technically, TDM is much more powerful than the Dark Engine, and your remake of NW could demonstrate it for everyone.

 

Night watch has a lot of cool stuff like dragon heads,dwarfs,bats,trickster and lot more that is not available in TDM yet

[New Horizon]

Cool. That's news to me. Shows how little I've checked TTLG lately.

 

You won't find anything about it on TTLG, at least not until Eidos ever gets off their asses and grants the community use of the code.

[MoroseTroll]

Melan: I'm sure that you're right, but the main goal - to demonstrate that TDM is more powerful and better the the Dark Engine - is still not reached yet, IMHO. I believe that people are needed to compare apples to apples, i.e. that mission in T1/T2 and the same or similar mission in TDM. It's like to see the dmDeck16 from Unreal 1 (1998) in Unreal Tournament 2007 - the engine versions are different, but the map is the same, and for me personnally it was very nice to walk (more precisely - to run), see and compare. Of course, I don't (and can't) insist that this should be the Fidcal's Night Watch, but perhaps something not as big and complex, still famous.

 

Shadowhide: I think it's a matter of time to see those beasts (or their analogs) in TDM.

Edited April 29, 2011 by MoroseTroll

[Fidcal]

Yes, I agree what Melan said on all three points about remaking a T2 FM. It's new creativity that drives us so remaking a previous creation is not much fun. Maybe attempting some aspect of it in a new way, eg, whirlpool, fairy, Jack's escape, the harpy, might be interesting but these might be quite difficult with the current TDM assets.

 

Don't worry, there are lots of new and different ambitious builds and stories in the pipeline as you will see in due course. TDM is capable of a lot more than anyone has yet seen.

[Tels]

Melan: I'm sure that you're right, but the main goal - to demonstrate that TDM is more powerful and better the the Dark Engine - is still not reached yet, IMHO.

 

I am having a little bit difficulties to understand why:

 

* A: is it nec. to actually show that. Why do we or anybody else actually care? Why not let T1/T2 be what they are, and let TDM be what it is and move on? Why are you clinging to the past (read the thread title again)

* B: I thought that A: it is obvious that TDM is a completely different technical league, anyway and B: it is open-source and any missing bits can be added, so there is almost not limit, even with parts of the engine closed yet, and C: when the engine goes open-source the sky is the limit. I don't understand how anyone can say that T2/T1 are in any way, shape or form "better" in technical terms.

 

I believe that people are needed to compare apples to apples, i.e. that mission in T1/T2 and the same or similar mission in TDM. It's like to see the dmDeck16 from Unreal 1 (1998) in Unreal Tournament 2007 - the engine versions are different, but the map is the same, and for me personnally it was very nice to walk (more precisely - to run), see and compare. Of course, I don't (and can't) insist that this should be the Fidcal's Night Watch, but perhaps something not as big and complex, still famous.

 

We all know very well that is is technically possible to remake any map/mission from T1/T2 in TDM, AND make it bigger, better, etc etc. and that there are no real things that an 9 (or so?) year old engine can do better than what TDM can do. So I am not actually sure what you want to accomplish by such a comparisation.

 

Plus, if you really really need this, then why not fire up DR and make it yourself?

 

People working on TDM are busy creating *new* things, and they pour endless hours into this, and still people clinge to the old stuff and want it "redone" just because?

 

Me thinks people still don't understand that there is a difference between "TDM the engine and toolkit" and "FMs created with the TDM toolkit".

[MoroseTroll]

Fidcal: I have no doubt about quality of the upcoming TDM FMs. I am just sorry that many taffers will skip them just because they will be created for TDM. Heck, maybe it's a language barrier, but my point of the remaking was to make TDM much more attractive for taffers than it is now. There are two ways to achieve this, as I can see:

 

1) Either to create much more attractive FMs (than for T1&T2);

2) Or to demonstrate the T1&T2 community that TDM is much more handy tool to create new FMs.

 

As I can see, the part 1 is still not achieved. As I said, I have no doubt about quality of upcoming TDM FMs, but will they attract as much taffers as you, guys, want? I don't know. Do you?

As of the part 2, I think many enough taffers know that, but, I believe, not as much as you, guys, want.

That's why I'm trying to convince at least one of you to create something that would demonstrate TDM's power. Of course, a remake of FM is troublesome, but what about some kind of tech demo (just geometry, not FM) of some famous FM or even OM for T1/T2 (something like the Digital Nightfall's Cathedral for UT2004)? Just to allow people to watch and compare with original and, of course, make decision: "Damn! TDM is just ***ing good!"

 

Tels:

A) Absolutely. AFAIK, TDM has been created as a much more modern (and handy) basis for FM creation in mind. You, guys, have made a lots of work, but, I believe, you need to... advertise it some way. Do you remember TV ads? They take some unnamed product and compare with a new one. That's right, I vote for this type of ad .

 

B, C) I have no doubt, the id Tech 4 is much more powerful then the Dark Engine, but these are just engines. The main goal is to have a quality (popular, if you wish) FMs created for those engines, right? Who will create them for TDM?

 

The current TDM FM authors are still in the minority if we compare their quantity with the T1&T2 FM authors. The root of this problem, as I can see it, is in some... blood transfusion (some T1&T2 FM authors would migrate to TDM). How can you do that? By convincing them, I suppose. How exactly? By demonstrating them the power of TDM in some kind of tech demo (like in Serious Sam 1).

Edited April 30, 2011 by MoroseTroll

[fibanocci]

Stuck in the Past? Maybe.

Recently, I asked a friend of mine (she's an old thief fan who played T1/T2 FMs for years), why she wouldn't play any TDM-FMs. She said, she tried to play it, but TDM-FMs were just like TDS-FMs, so she doesn't like it. This is not exactly what I'm thinking about TDM, but similar to that. Perhaps a lot of people on ttlg.com (the old fashioned thief fans) have got the same feeling about TDM. Take this into consideration. A poll on ttlg.com would help to answer that question.

[Springheel]

She said, she tried to play it, but TDM-FMs were just like TDS-FMs, so she doesn't like it.

 

That really doesn't tell us much. There are plenty of very obvious ways in which TDM FMs are nothing like TDS FMs (the existence of swimable water and rope arrows being two obvious ones). I personally see very little similarity at all.

[New Horizon]

She said, she tried to play it, but TDM-FMs were just like TDS-FMs, so she doesn't like it.

 

I think she really needs to compare the two again. I currently have TDS, Thief 2 and TDM installed. I can't play TDS for very long before the clunkiness starts to bug me, but TDM and Thief 2...I can play those for hours. If she's simply talking about the higher resolution graphics, well...that can't really be avoided in a newer engine. As far as game-play and control goes, TDM is far closer to Thief 1 /2 than Deadly Shadows is.

[Shadowhide]

well,TDM should be playable for T1/2 fan.

It not like TDS where are loading zones on each city quarter,thirdperson and climbing gloves.

I think TDM did't show nothing empressive for T1/2 fm player yet.T2 fms got dirigibles,moving trains and lot more cool and interesting stuff.

[fibanocci]

If she's simply talking about the higher resolution graphics, well...that can't really be avoided in a newer engine

Its's the look she's mainly complaining about...well and the clunkyness (that gets better by the time, of course ).

These people are used to play this old game called thief. I don't think they really appreciate this shiny new look.

By the way: Thief is a very humorous game after all, listen to the voices. I do think here's a gap between Thief and TDM.

 

What about a poll on ttlg.com? You could learn something about the ttlg.com members.

Edited April 30, 2011 by fibanocci

[Sotha]

I think TDM did't show nothing empressive for T1/2 fm player yet.T2 fms got dirigibles,moving trains and lot more cool and interesting stuff.

 

Pandora's Box has a dirigible.... But I suppose it is not enough since it is a dirigible in TDM.. Not counted.. I don't think T1/T2 have a Swing!

 

I agree that TDM has more gloomy in atmosphere than T1/T2.

 

A poll never harmed anyone. (Except sometimes they divide communities and make people look down upon other people's preferences.)

[New Horizon]

Its's the look she's mainly complaining about...well and the clunkyness (that gets better by the time, of course ).

 

When I referred to clunkyness, I was talking about Deadly Shadows...and the horrible control. As far as TDM control, I honestly find it to be about as smooth as Thief 1 / 2 ever were.

 

These people are used to play this old game called thief. I don't think they really appreciate this shiny new look.

 

I thought the majority of Thief players said graphics didn't matter? That goes both ways for me...if they happen to be better, that's fine, but I'm also happy playing the older games too.

 

By the way: Thief is a very humorous game after all, listen to the voices. I do think here's a gap between Thief and TDM.

 

Well, the issue in a lot of cases is that a lot of the original missions and even fan missions have custom conversations. Earlier TDM missions didn't have the luxury of custom conversations, but if you look at the recently released Mandrasola, it has some quite humorous moments...but TDM is rooted more firmly in a grimier world.

 

What about a poll on ttlg.com? You could learn something about the ttlg.com members.

 

I'm not sure what such a poll would accomplish at this point. We have some very talented Thief 1 / 2 mappers who enjoy mapping on TDM, they know how to make great missions. We asked for input and help from the community for years before the release, but our calls for help were pretty much ignored. We've put our best foot forward....we've set our toys out on the table...and everyone is welcome to play with them. They just need to give it a fair chance. If they expect an exact replica of Thief 1/2, they'll be disappointed....but if they can open their mind to a platform that is deeply inspired by Thief...I think they'll have a good time.

[fibanocci]

A poll never harmed anyone. (Except sometimes they divide communities and make people look down upon other people's preferences.)

This is not what I intended

 

I'd like to have asked in this poll: Do you think TDM (in it's current state) is more similar to

 

-T1/T2

-TDS

 

I suppose this will help to clarify the question of being "stuck in the past" or not.

[Springheel]

Without specifics, that kind of a poll accomplishes nothing.

 

Besides, there are plenty of threads on TTLG expressing people's opinions about TDM.

[fibanocci]

Without specifics

Which specifics?

 

that kind of a poll accomplishes nothing.

I don't think so. Most gamers on ttlg.com prefer the old games (that's for sure). If they do think, TDM looks like a TDS-clone, you'll get the answer you want (or not). Don't be afraid.

Besides, there are plenty of threads on TTLG expressing people's opinions about TDM.

I never saw a poll like this, if I remember correctly.

[New Horizon]

I never saw a poll like this, if I remember correctly.

 

Spring was referring to discussion threads, not polls.

[Baddcog]

It's such a broad question and could be answered in so many ways.

 

ie:

 

Is TDM more like TDS.

 

YES- because it has higher res graphics, normal maps, dynamic shadows

 

Is TDM more like T1/T2

 

YES - because of feel, color palette, controls, swimming, rope arrows, no load zones

 

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So knowing whether or not people click on TDS or T1 doesn't say anything other than a percentage of people who have an opinion one way or another which they feel it is 'closer' too.

So it no more helps people get over the assumption that it's like TDS than it does help understand why.

 

I personally liked TDS and played it twice. I feel there were many things that could have been better and a (useable) mapping tool would have been a great start. But that never happened, so TDM did instead. And I'm glad because to me it is MUCH more like T1/2 at the soul then it is like T3 at the skin level.

[demagogue]

A poll could just turn into an invitation for people to get personal and poison the waters. And it looks like we're begging or insisting on compliments & validation like we're on some kind of ego trip -- it's effectively like asking: "Are we T2 awesome or what?" -- which isn't our style at all. (And I can practically predict that's how some people will take it, like we're asses that can't get enough hagiography we have to "invite" people to worship us in a poll, so they react in the other direction wanting to burst the bubble and point out all the ways it's a POS like TDS or something like that... Just no sense in getting people riled up over an innocent question that's not that important anyway. TDM is what it is, having aspects similar to T2, TDS, and things completely unique to it.)

 

I think we're better off just modestly posting when new FMs and new Versions come out and letting people come if they want to play. We definitely let people know what TDM has to offer, but without looking like we're getting in people's faces to insist they validate us. When people have an opinion they want to express, they can and do so on their own in different threads, and that's the way it should be.

[bob_arctor]

Perhaps finding some way to have more colourful Thief Gold style textures would be a start?

 

I can't decide though whether it would be possible or not, because TG got away with a lot that you couldn't do with a newer engine, for example not lining up textures properly, or using very crude unconvincing texturing and geometry in places (Wizard's towers come to mind) which often worked (E.g. Baffords, Songs of the Caverns) because of the gloominess of the engine.

[Hit Deity]

.... because of the gloominess of the engine.

 

Damn those pesky new engines!

 

{someone said} As far as game-play and control goes, TDM is far closer to Thief 1 /2 than Deadly Shadows is.

 

Glad to hear that! I'm installing the 2+ GB beast now (only took 24 hours to d/l) and hopefully will have it up and running in the next couple of days.

 

How've you guys been?

Edited May 26, 2011 by Hit Deity

[Komag]

Hey Hit Deity, you're in for a treat! Some missions are better than others (of course). Return to the City is one of the best - you might "save it for later" or play it right out of the gate, depending on your sentiments. But definitely play through the training mission, it's well done and does a good job of helping you learn the new ropes (slight pun intended)

[demagogue]

Hey Hit Diety. Welcome to the dark side.

 

After you've played some FMs, you might take a look at Dark Radient, the mission editor. Really nice to build with... not to put any ideas in your head or anything.

[Hit Deity]

The Dark Mod = The Dark Side, then? Ok, cool. I can handle that. No worries, no pressure, eh?

 

It is definitely calling to me...let's just see what happens, okay?

[ungoliant]

tdm = tds? harrumph.