Thief 4 is trash.

[Obsttorte]

That's the name of the game with everything nowadays.

We have developed into a permanant kindergarten class.

Symbols and grunts for words. Fingerpainting (swiping your tablet/pad) is/has replaced the keyboard.

Everything needs to be done for us as we automate and follow our robotic destiny.

Another comment here was referring to just making a forward button that did everything for you - you just sit back and watch endless cutscenes.... but just as you are getting use to that - they will eliminate the forward button.

Yes, we are being boxed in more and more. They don't want us to think outside their box. And ultimately, not to think at all.

While we still have the ability to think we must think the way they want us to. Follow the program.

But what is the code they are programming us with now? Because the box is made of something that shapes our thoughts. It's not just a box that gets smaller and smaller.

Oh please, please stop bothering us with that thesis. After I've released The Builder Roads lots of people were complaining about it beeing to difficult, having to ghost and not having a blackjack bla, bla, bla.

 

This is not only a problem with AAA titles.

[New Horizon]

The level editor alone would not be enough for this game. It would also require an SDK to change some of the design decisions...otherwise you're just stuck making missions with all the warts intact.

[Airship Ballet]

Yes, we are being boxed in more and more. They don't want us to think outside their box. And ultimately, not to think at all. But what is the code they are programming us with now? Because the box is made of something that shapes our thoughts.

 

Let's not go there.

[Grubber]

Let's not go there.

 

 

 

[simplen00b]

Meanwhile, on a lighter note, this is jolly amusing and worth a chuckle or two (apologies if it's already been posted): -

https://www.youtube....h?v=_cjx8_PvWbg

[Airship Ballet]

An influx of easy, simplified games =/= totalitarian thought policing, 'nuff said.

 

I'm amazed that the guy in that video went as far as to make his own game, or somebody did anyway. Reminds me of this:

 

 

Oh please, please stop bothering us with that thesis. After I've released The Builder Roads lots of people were complaining about it beeing to difficult, having to ghost and not having a blackjack bla, bla, bla.

 

This is not only a problem with AAA titles.

 

Some people take crazy amounts of time to play through FMs, and have difficulties the moment you introduce either platforming or intricate sneaking. It's easy enough to say you don't need the help but it seems a fair few who complain about it do need a hand sometimes. AAA games wouldn't have been dumbed down so much if it hadn't been proven that it's necessary to avoid alienating people with difficulty a la Gatehouse platforming section.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Airship Ballet

[Psychomorph]

Meanwhile, on a lighter note, this is jolly amusing and worth a chuckle or two (apologies if it's already been posted): -

https://www.youtube....h?v=_cjx8_PvWbg

 

Oh lol.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjoFaIT3030

[Melan]

This might just be the Birth of a Nation of stealth games.

Nauhty, naughty!

 

The level editor alone would not be enough for this game. It would also require an SDK to change some of the design decisions...otherwise you're just stuck making missions with all the warts intact.

It would require hacking beyond the level of The Minimalist Project, and, while I admire TMP for the engineering feat, it doesn't really solve Thief 3's problems. I think the sooner people forget about waiting for an editor will be the sooner they find more useful outlets for their creativity... like DarkRadiant or Dromed.

[Xarg]

Something I've learned in my time on the intertubes, is some people will always only be official product consumers.

[jtr7]

..............

Edited March 6, 2014 by jtr7

[At0mic]

With regards to being able to jump/mantle everywhere as opposed to only at set areas, some argue that having complete freedom of movement might allow the player to get somewhere that was not considered by the level designer - with the possibility of "breaking" the game (seeing missing textures you're not supposed to see in the first place, getting stuck and unable to backtrack, etc). It's true that these things could happen, but how then does Dishonored manage to allow that level of movement freedom? Maybe they spent a heck of a lot of time and effort to ensure people couldn't break the game while still allowing full movement possible. That's what you'd expect developers to do with a AAA title - that why you pay them full price, to do that leg work, not to take the lazy, easy road of limiting the player.

 

Anyway, perhaps I'm stuck in an old-school mentality, but I honestly don't care if I end up getting stuck in level geometry or see dodgy textures due to me jumping/mantling up to an areas that wasn't expected for players to get to. It doesn't ruin my impression of the game, and in fact we should be ENCOURAGING such behaviour from players. I believe the term some people like to use is "emergent gameplay" - gameplay that ends up happening that the developers never considered. This sticking of the player to a completely linear path, boxing them in, ensuring that "oh no no, you shouldn't try going there, go here instead" just smacks of caring more about presentation rather than what the gamer could accomplish.

Edited March 4, 2014 by At0mic

[jtr7]

...............

Edited March 6, 2014 by jtr7

[darkside]

Update: About 20 hrs into chapter 6, and having completed maybe 1/2 the side missions - which are sorta fun time consuming navigation puzzles. Unfortunately this is also where you REALLY notice poor linear movement restrictions ie jump, mantle, lean, and rope arrows. Which I just don't understand, these mechanics have been a Thief staple from day one... what on earth were they thinking?

 

For those about to play, hint no spoiler:

 

 

You need to hunt MASSIVE loot using 'Focus', and you're going to wear the paint off that key. For me, this was a deal breaker... 5/10

[sparhawk]

AAA games wouldn't have been dumbed down so much if it hadn't been proven that it's necessary to avoid alienating people with difficulty a la Gatehouse platforming section.

 

 

If you want to play a really tough game, then give "Dark Souls" a try. It's the first game I EVER played, where I don't even manage to get out of the "Introl" level, which is customarily an easy walkthrough to make learn the basics.

[Melan]

It's true that these things could happen, but how then does Dishonored manage to allow that level of movement freedom? Maybe they spent a heck of a lot of time and effort to ensure people couldn't break the game while still allowing full movement possible.

I really like Dishonored, but a lot of places are conveniently walled off from you by blocking your blink ability. You can't really get up on the steep rooftops (even to fall to your well-deserved death), and there is a difference between the objects you can mantle/blink on, and objects you can't. Overall, the level design is very good, but it's not really full movement in the sense Thief or TDM allows.

[stumpy]

one thing I find weird about nuThief is I can climb down into water thats you can wade in, but if you jump down into it from about 5 ft up, you die. Am stuck in south quarter, am guess am supposed to stealth past some gang members from the eels, but they seem to be able to see in the dark, I've tried knocking them out, but when you do that the rest of the eels in the area seem to know instantly where you are and turn up like they've just been spawned in and stab you in the back even though the street was empty behind me cause I hung around in that street for 1/2 an hour waiting for a patrol to turn up, and one never does. I can't swwop cause I have the shadow bug and cant see the shadows. my game has consisted of trail and error, and trying to remember when am in shadow and when not. In some cases I've had to resort to sitting on a beam above the street and shooting guards in the head cause the game wont let me knock them out.

[At0mic]

I really like Dishonored, but a lot of places are conveniently walled off from you by blocking your blink ability. You can't really get up on the steep rooftops (even to fall to your well-deserved death), and there is a difference between the objects you can mantle/blink on, and objects you can't. Overall, the level design is very good, but it's not really full movement in the sense Thief or TDM allows.

True. To its credit, Dishonored tried to balance having as much free movement as possible while still preventing the player from getting stuck somewhere or blinking outside of the map or something. They use steep rooftops to justify being unable to get past them, and invisible walls for the rest. It's not complete freedom, but it's a reasonable balance I can accept and it's still miles ahead of what Thief 4 allows.

 

There's one situation where I did actually manage to get myself fucked up in Dishonored - I blinked through a gap between two invisible wall and had trouble getting back. Eventually worked out a way to mantle myself (it was a set of pipes in an early level that you weren't suppose to get onto I guess) but still, if this was a game like TDM I'd just type "noclip" in the pull-down console and fix the problem myself.

Edited March 4, 2014 by At0mic

[Airship Ballet]

If you want to play a really tough game, then give "Dark Souls" a try.

 

I played Dark Souls so obssessively that it has no appeal left for me now, even though it's still high on my top 10. I put about 500 hours into it over console and PC, without really even realising. I can't wait for March when the second is released.

 

https://youtu.be/P9zeYOyH154?t=25m58s

Edited March 4, 2014 by Airship Ballet

[Lux]

Some people take crazy amounts of time to play through FMs, and have difficulties the moment you introduce either platforming or intricate sneaking. It's easy enough to say you don't need the help but it seems a fair few who complain about it do need a hand sometimes. AAA games wouldn't have been dumbed down so much if it hadn't been proven that it's necessary to avoid alienating people with difficulty a la Gatehouse platforming section.

 

I am quite adept at games, absolutely love platforming, really enjoy taking in my environment, and I do take "crazy amounts of time to play through FMs". Seems like you're generalizing here vs. a playstyle you personally don't prescribe to for the purpose of illustrating why games are dumbed down by AAA devs.

 

Not all of us like doing "speed runs" through games. In my mind that totally defeats any purpose of the game, its just a virtual form of bragging. "Look how fast I can run through the environment!"...k.

 

Its fine if you personally think AAA games are dumbed down because others lack your playstyle and they're "slow" because they take in their surroundings and are observant.

 

I personally think games are dumbed down to appeal to a wider audience, i.e. not us or anyone that would even frequent a game forum, because broader sales includes people that are just now starting to game. Not the gaming elite.

 

Taking a "long time" to go through a mission means absolutely nothing.

[Airship Ballet]

Speed-running is an enforced playstyle, you never do it first time. It's just the same as using no equipment or not levelling your characters in an RPG, stuff like that. You play it through first time to explore and play it how it's intended, after that it's your playground. If you take a very long time your first time and have difficulty doing so, that's just how you play naturally. Speed-running or no-levelling isn't a way of life, it's just something you do to keep a good game fresh after you've done everything it has to offer with a vanilla playstyle. In terms of being made easy, AAA games are simple in order to avoid alienating people through difficulty. Go back to the Gatehouse thread and count the number of people who just noclipped over the platforming section because they couldn't do it. If they didn't have that option, they wouldn't have finished it, and that's what AAA devs try to avoid.

[Lux]

If you take a very long time your first time and have difficulty doing so, that's just how you play naturally.

 

This is a generalization and may be construed as condescention as it does sound a bit that way.

[Airship Ballet]

This is a generalization and may be construed as condescention as it does sound a bit that way.

 

I wouldn't say it's a generalisation that people play a game naturally the first time they play unless they've already been made to play in a certain way. I'm not trying to condescend, but if you take hours longer playing naturally than somebody else playing naturally you're just not as efficient as them. I could understand if you were playing, say, Journey or Shadow of the Colossus, something that encourages real exploration. With regards to TDM, there's only so much scenery to take in without staring laboriously at the textures of every skirting board so the only place I can see the time going to is in the actual gameplay.

[Lux]

And again. That's simply not true unless you equate "efficient" with "unobservant". That's all I'm saying. Don't get bent out of shape about it.

 

If a player has a photographic memory, I guess this may not be the case.

 

only place I can see the time going to is in the actual gameplay.

 

Key word there being, "I". If you can't see the time going anywhere else than to actual gameplay that's fine, however it doesn't mean that everyone else has the same perspective, nor does it mean they're inefficient. I'm sure you're aware of that which is why I'm confused.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Lux

[Airship Ballet]

Well I've never had any trouble completing or coming very close to expert loot goals on the first pass while generally going undetected, even in Lords & Legacy, so unobservant isn't the right word. There are FMs I remember for particular visual elements, so it's not like I'm not taking it all in. Maybe I have a better sense of direction; I never really get lost unless we're talking Downwind Thieves Guild levels of labyrinthian.

[Grubber]

Oh please, please stop bothering us with that thesis. After I've released The Builder Roads lots of people were complaining about it beeing to difficult, having to ghost and not having a blackjack bla, bla, bla.

 

This is not only a problem with AAA titles.

 

Luckily the beauty of having fm's by different authors gives much diversity. The freedom the author has to create the mission he/she wants to make, generates lots of interesting content. Just don't try to please everyone. And of course different difficulty options are appreciated.