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Thief 4 is trash.


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An influx of easy, simplified games =/= totalitarian thought policing, 'nuff said.


Reality is a bit more complicated than easy one-liners of course. If you ever want to explore this line of reasoning further you should also take other media forms into account. TV-programming, news-casts, holy-wood blockbusters and what have you. But don't worry, nobody will force it upon you if you choose to label and ignore it.

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Taking a "long time" to go through a mission means absolutely nothing.


That's SO right. :) When I played "Alan Wake" there was a scene rather early on, where you had a fantastic view over a mountain lake. I enjoyed it so much, that I didn't even get past the savepoint for quite some time, because you can not go back anymore after that, unless you start a new game of course (did I mention that I ABSOLUTELY hate this kind of savepoints?).


Didn't like the game when I continued playing, because I ran into the "deadly savepoint" trap later on and this was a killer for me. :(

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What's so wrong about breaking games? I mean, there is something to be said for not shipping a completely broken game, like when people end up where they're not supposed to be in normal play, but that is a different thing altogether from completely and utterly boarding everything up so even with strong perseverance and skill you're not going to find anything. That's just boring. I like breaking game, it tells me a lot about how the systems of the game work. Breaking games is a meta-thing that you should not worry about. The goal is to make your game robust, not unbreakable.


Right! I don't really understand why devs want to control every aspect of our gaming experience. I consider it a well designed game, if a game can handle those type of things that the devs did NOT anticpate and still as a player getting fun out of it. So why block this like a holy grail?

That's one thing I really love with Painkiller. You have really nice architecture and if you see some spot you can try to attack it. If you manage it, you get rewarded with a feeling that you managed something that not everbody can do and the game doesn't stop you. This way you can spend a lot of time even after you played through every anticipated nook and cranny that was intended to be seen and still get something out of the game.


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I'd argue that the general shift towards a more cinematic style of presentation in games has resulted in this determination by developers to deliberately limit the decisions that can be made by a player. Back in the days of Quake 1/2 for example, the concept of an invisible wall to block player progress was non-existent. Indeed, you could bypass whole areas with a well-executed rocket jump if you wanted, and the game wouldn't give a crap because it didn't matter. From what I understand the idea of rocket jumping wasn't really thought by the developers in Quake 1, but players came up with it anyway and despite the use of laser grids and other mechanisms to prevent its use in the sequel, there's still many areas that can be bypassed or manipulated using rocket jumps in Q2. In other words, iD didn't feel it necessary to block skilled players doing things their way to make progress. Why would they? Rocket jumping is fun, and indeed there's a particular secret in Quake 2 made specifically for rocket jumpers.


But now, since games are in many ways just highly interactive movies (not all games of course, just a lot), if the player deliberately or inadvertently breaks something, it'll spoil the immersion or atmosphere or whatever the developers intended, and that's bad since since the guided movie-like aspect is so (apparently) important to games nowadays. Maybe I'm just talking out of my arse, but that's what I see as being the reason for the deliberate limitations imposed in a game like Thief 4.

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I don't know what you guys are going on about when it's clear that my play style that is the best one.

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I also never expected so many veteran Thief players to give up on it, and spit on it, especially people who once knew what it meant and cannot even relate to who they once were now.


What veteran Thief players have given up on Thief gameplay, or "spit on it"?

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If you ever want to explore this line of reasoning further you should also take other media forms into account. TV-programming, news-casts, holy-wood blockbusters and what have you. But don't worry, nobody will force it upon you if you choose to label and ignore it.






But now, since games are in many ways just highly interactive movies (not all games of course, just a lot)


I think it's safe enough to assume this is true for anything you hear about IGN promoting early or see youtube personalities making beta videos about all at the same time. I'm actually blissfully far away from this whole scene, just kinda snorting quietly when I load up Steam and see that the Store page has been decked out for the newest AAA "experience" as they like to call them. It's not a game, it's an experience, you guys.


I don't even mind it when it's a good one, but it never is with AAA bullshit. Levine, for example, seems to think he's a narrative genius, thinking it'll blow people's minds when he flips the switch for the big multiverse reveal only to fall into the same pitfalls a teenager would upon having a class on metaphysics. The ending to Bioshock Infinite was balls, utter balls, and the entire damn game was built around it. Generic everything was slotted in to fill the gaps between his little nuances that he no doubt tittered about because people were going to go crazy when they discovered what it all meant. Now, to cap it all off, he's leaving his company to focus on more narrative-based games. Joy to the world.


If ya want story, go for indie developers, if ya want puzzles, indie, if you want difficulty, indie, if you want nostalgia, indie. By indie I don't mean Pretentious McHipster the Indie Dev, but rather people who have the knowledge and the ideas but none of the contemporary bullshit forced on them to get funding. Kickstarter's a wonderful idea, perhaps the one thing that's going to save the industry in the short term so we can keep getting games until the trend passes and we start getting amazing games in the public spotlight like the PS2/N64 era. Plenty of good games before then, but that was the last time companies were doing as they pleased and consequently had the best technology for it, right before it started getting wasted. You can even see in early PS3/360 era where the good old PS2 spirit was lost and it slooooowly started to become about commercial crowd pleasing. Now it's gone from that to commercial crowd leveraging. Ugh.


Maybe you do.



Edited by Airship Ballet
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I don't care about names, but I'd love to know what you consider examples of thief fans "spitting on" thief gameplay. I suspect those are the kinds of statements that make people think you're going heavy on the hyperbole.

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Well either we wont get a Thief sequel or we will get fresh blood on a Thief sequel




Thief developer Eidos Montreal has just laid off a number of employees, according to multiple Kotaku sources.


We've heard differing numbers, but they're big—one source says 30-50; another says 20+. Those people requested anonymity while speaking to Kotaku.


Thief, which came out last week, received middling reviews including a "No" from Kotaku. A number of reports suggested that the game had troubles during development. In October, Eidos Montreal cancelled an unannounced game that sources have told me was connected to the Japanese branch of Square Enix.


Edited by Goldwell
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I'm getting tired of people who seem to think it's their job to tell other people that their personal opinions about a game make them a bad person.


It's easy to see two people debating something and reading one side then assuming the other is saying the opposite. JTR's issue is with people not entirely agreeing that it's a 100% awful game, while my issue is him acting on it. I've never asserted that his opinion on Thief makes him a bad person, but he has with me, several times, and with completely ridiculous implications. I'm nowhere near naive enough to expect people on the internet to agree with me, and I never try to make them; I just give them my opinion and assess the credibility of both mine and theirs. What JTR's doing is implying that not agreeing it's a 100% awful game makes me a bad person because I'm either the bane of good gaming or picking on minorities with disabilities or some other bullshit. That is not hyperbole, just read a few things he's said to me. Again, my issue is not with his opinion, but how personal he and a couple others make it with people who don't agree with them. They have toxic attitudes and a serious persecutory delusion. Some of them barely seem to even play TDM, if at all, but rather frequent this forum to stir shit. So far we've gone from checking privileges to spitting on Looking Glass Studio's grave and, somehow, the oppression of the people and the growth of a totalitarian state.


People are making it very personal when really all I've done is say that it's not all bad, just mostly terrible, and agreed with their points to the same effect. It's been rendered more of a pissing contest than a discussion, and it's really shown the true colors of a few members of the community, the way they've bitched at each other for months and posting subjective, radical, antagonistic bait to try and start arguments (see below) instead of talking about the game properly and critically. In other words, what you said.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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Fuck off NuGarret is NOT emo, nothing he says or does could be considered emo. He's actually pretty distant, aloof and uncaring except when Basso goes missing, then he actually shows some anger.

He is not repeat NOT emo!


And when his

bird died he was slightly shocked, showed only a little sadness,

not once has Garrett ever expressed anything near woe is me.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.


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It used to be Thief would be the reason for gathering and discussion, now it's just the carrier-wave for subjective garbage.

Edited by jtr7

A skunk was badgered--the results were strong.

I hope that something better comes along.

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Just curious though - if I say I actually like the new game and am enjoying it, does that mean I'm "spitting on" the existing Thief games and their legacy?


Sorry, but I'm not on board with that.


Nope, it's just overly simplified fun. Despite a lot of complaints, a fair few people are tens of hours into it. Something must be keeping them playing despite all their completely valid criticism.

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As an aside, I just finished House of Blossoms quest, and omg that mission is beautiful!


However, the whole time I was in the

keeper library

, all I could think of was the wasted potential of mantling opportunities if this was in TDM.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.


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