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Just out of curiosity and the forum search didn't turn out anything : has anyone ever tried to make a Fan Mission where you play as a guard, like Upside Down? https://www.thiefguild.com/fanmissions/143/upside-down

If not? What are the obstacles you think you'd face? Thanks for any comments on this topic. 

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Don't know about obsctacles, but, I'd expect to play as the thief in a... Thief game. ;)

Of course that shouldn't prevent someone to do a mission where you don't. Feels weird though. It's not a police simulator.

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I think this is a tremendous idea with so much potential. The guard's mission could be to prevent a crime which would offer lots of adrenaline fun but there could also be a scenario where the guard is instead a Detective (or a Private Investigator) that has been sent to solve a crime that has already been committed. Depending on the individual, sleuthing can involve a lot of stealthiness so the player could use a lot of his thief skill-sets.

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1 hour ago, Jetrell said:

The guard's mission could be to prevent a crime which would offer lots of adrenaline fun but there could also be a scenario where the guard is instead a Detective (or a Private Investigator) that has been sent to solve a crime that has already been committed.

There's one or two missions already with that kind of scheme.

The issue I also see with playing a guard is that the game allows you to hide in shadows, but not the NPC's. So, you'd really be limited to eavesdropping, chasing someone, or finding incriminating evidence, that sort of thing.

I really think paid thief jobs with some kind of criminal conspiracy are more like it. Fits the general theme better as well. But, hey.

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Here's the message I sent to Fieldmedic on August 23, 2013:

Quote

 

I was considering taking another stab at mapping and putting some effort it into this time. I came up with a possible idea for an FM, "Life of a Guard". I like the idea because it is reductionist:

* Guards don't attack you. You're on the team of justice as a guard/"cop"/detective. Enemies would be thug types. This necessitates disabling certain vocal barks related to thievery, maybe.

* No blackjack or lockpicks (lockpicks could be reserved for a later mission, assuming I can build this at all). Might throw in the steel ball from that one ~1.07 FM. And of course, crates around the mission for knockouts.

* Civilians might attack the player. Trespassing in certain homes could be seen as criminal, leading civilians to attack or panic. That made me think of the tension meter from your missions. Am I correct in assuming you created that? It's a great tool, and if I didn't include it, I would at least throw in some "trespass zones". Going through them could be required to reach other areas.

* No to low loot. I don't think I'd put loot in any civilian homes, so as not to frustrate completionists by creating an invalid choice between playing "honestly", and getting 100% loot. A small loot objective might be a req. for an expert difficulty, something like recovering stolen goods from a hideout.

For the story, I imagine the mission starting during or after an incident in which a guard (the player character) becomes suspicious or gets entangled with a gang or thieves. The guard would pursue and bring deadly force to bear. I'd throw in a bonus objective and a fun sound effect for knocking out suspects and dragging them to a station rather than killing them. You'd start out with a sword and broadheads only, and maybe find a few water arrows or flashbombs on the way. I could throw in a crooked guard or too.

That's basically all I have. Thought I'd run it by you since you're the pioneer of the tension meter.

 

To answer Chakk's critique, if you look at Thief 2, it got weird FMs like Kill Factory, Incubus, The Flying Age, etc. All that's needed is someone dedicated enough to map it, and people willing to play it.

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4 hours ago, chakkman said:

The issue I also see with playing a guard is that the game allows you to hide in shadows, but not the NPC's. So, you'd really be limited to eavesdropping, chasing someone, or finding incriminating evidence, that sort of thing.

Not necessarily...  What I gather from reading SeriousToni's inquiry, the player would be playing as a guard so by definition he wouldn't be a non-player character (NPC).

 

4 hours ago, jaxa said:

To answer Chakk's critique, if you look at Thief 2, it got weird FMs like Kill Factory, Incubus, The Flying Age, etc. All that's needed is someone dedicated enough to map it, and people willing to play it.

Exactly :smile:

 

I don't understand why we would want to limit creativity. It is why I'm advocating for finishing MirceaKitsune's dragon asset. A dragon might not necessarily fit your definition of our "general theme" but for others, a dragon might fit perfectly into their definition of our "general theme". Also, why must we desire to constrain people to fit into any "general theme? Wouldn't that just promote stagnation? This is a community project with a vast array of people with diverse ideas and interpretations. I think it wise to advocate for more creativity vs less.

Build it and they will come...

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6 hours ago, Jetrell said:

Not necessarily...  What I gather from reading SeriousToni's inquiry, the player would be playing as a guard so by definition he wouldn't be a non-player character (NPC).

Well... yeah... of course... ;) What I meant is that you won't be able to switch the whole gameplay, so to speak. TDM is made with sneaking and hiding in mind. And what do you do as a guard? Yes, surely not sneak and hide. You guard things. Unless you want to turn a guard's work into a thieves' work.

Again, every mission maker should do what he likes, it's just that I personally don't see how this fits. I can't imagine playing asphalt in a racing simulation either.

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Thank you for your comments and the discussion so far. I was just thinking about this idea and want to hear if others have had this too or even tried to build something like that. Very nice input. Thank you. 

I was thinking of a house with different entries the ai could take, so the player isn't able to guard all possible ways at once. Some ai patrols help. The enemy would spawn on multiple random positions and sneak inside the place. It's not possible for the guards to hide and wait in the shadows, but still the player would be free to do so. The enemy could have special abilities like dimming lights, become nearly invisible in the dark, one hit kill the player, run faster than the player, and so on. I think there's really multiple ways to make this fresh and interesting. Maybe the player could even spawn a certain amount of guards in special places before the thieves come in. I understand that this is a thief game - that's why I find this idea so interesting. :)

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"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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I also think it's a interesting idea. For a different game. Guards don't hide (after all, the Lords want to show their presence, for deterrent reasons), and, they coordinate with other guards to protect property (and they're most likely also ordered by higher guards). I just think the idea is a bit flawed at the base.

It would be a idea for a different kind of mission (like... for example, a guard which tries to unveil a conspiracy within the guard watch).

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I think the main issue is that the AI are not suited to thief-like behavior. You might try to fake it with patrols or the RITS system, but that's a pretty thin system that breaks easily and you couldn't really replay it. But ... I think if an author were very clever and careful, and they spent enough time with it, they could make a system that works pretty well. So I think it can be done. It'd just take a lot of cleverness and work.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Very interesting thread.

Another idea could be that you are still a thief but another master thief breaks into your own house or mansion.

In Requiem, there are enemies that become invisible in the shadows. If this was combined with an enemy that makes little/no noise and that also attempts to move in the shadows as much as possible (some scripting would be required, of course), finding them could be an interesting challenge.

Furthermore, if the other thief fires broadhead arrows when they can do it from the shadows, or if they have the ability to place mines, the player would still be forced to move slowly and stay hidden as well, so running around the mansion wouldn't be an option, lest you end up with an arrow through the head.

Replayability could be achieved by making the other thief or the valuable objects to protect spawn at random locations. Multiple thieves could also be present in the hardest difficulties.

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On 9/28/2020 at 9:27 PM, SeriousToni said:

Just out of curiosity and the forum search didn't turn out anything : has anyone ever tried to make a Fan Mission where you play as a guard, like Upside Down? https://www.thiefguild.com/fanmissions/143/upside-down

If not? What are the obstacles you think you'd face? Thanks for any comments on this topic. 

You should check out a multiplayer game, Thievery. It was a community made game, where 2 players played as theif, and the rest played as guards. Had some awesome times with that game. Not sure ifit's still active, but playing as guard was fun, but hard! YOu really had to know the maps.  Here's a couple of videos of it, 1 as guard, other as thief.
 

In TDM though it won't work, as humans are way too clever, and the AI thief wouldn't have a hope of winning. All you have to do as guard
is camp the exit, or the objective. If you didn't know either, it might be interesting, but you'd learn that on the first play through. So that's why
it wouldn't work in single player. 

Edited by NeonsStyle
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I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

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Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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A co-op like in Portal 2 with splitscreen would be awesome.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Split screen would never work as the guard can see where the thief is lol

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I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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I guess he meant that both players are thiefs, hence he called it coop ;)

 

On of the old Splinter Cell games had coop missions. Played them with a friend who never played Splinter Cell before - very funny.

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This is a fun idea.  Wish I'd played thievery back when it was fresh :(

Implementing thief-like AI behavior would be the toughest problem. As mentioned above, they don't really have a sense of "hiding", but you could probably be clever with patrols and scripted events to make them feel like garrett wannabes. 

 Some custom items or mechanics for guards would be fun. For instance a whistle that alerts other guards to your location or maybe a potion that briefly gives you night vision. 

If you could really sell playing as a guard and get some convincing AI thieves- that would definitely be cool to see!

 

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16 hours ago, kingsal said:

This is a fun idea.  Wish I'd played thievery back when it was fresh :(

Implementing thief-like AI behavior would be the toughest problem. As mentioned above, they don't really have a sense of "hiding", but you could probably be clever with patrols and scripted events to make them feel like garrett wannabes. 

 Some custom items or mechanics for guards would be fun. For instance a whistle that alerts other guards to your location or maybe a potion that briefly gives you night vision. 

If you could really sell playing as a guard and get some convincing AI thieves- that would definitely be cool to see!

 

If I remember rightly, guards had an alarm button they could flip which would call all other guard players to the alarm location. They

also had a crossbow, which had normal and firebolts which were used to tag the thief. They also had flares they could throw around

to light up the area. Thieves had all the gear "Thief" players had. It was a great game to play, I spent many many nights playing it. Everyone

wanted to be the thief of course, cause there was more action. The guards tended to hang around the main objective, while a couple others

patrolled likely spots. A lot of ppl said a multiplayer thief game wouldn't work, but it worked beautifully. 

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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It was great while it lasted.

I guess if anything it shows that the best hope for guard gameplay in TDM is if we get multiplayer up and running. That's always been my biggest dream for TDM from the start.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I never really found Thievery fun, and I played it when it was in its decline phase. It was more like Quake / UT, so very arcade kind of thing, with some invisibility mechanics on top of it. I'd rather see a single player mod for guards vs thieves tbh.

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I think the logic is more like: multiplayer would be awesome for coop in FMs with some close friends. That's a good enough reason to work on it by itself. But as long as one is working on it for that reason anyway, they may as well add functionality for thieves vs. guards since it wouldn't take comparatively that much more to pull off, and some people really like it.

Part of that point is the observation that coop or player vs. player functionality by itself probably wouldn't be enough for thieves vs. guards. You'd need some more features tailored specifically for it to make it work well, like mechanics to make sure the teams are balanced, the invisibility mechanics, well, basically the things you see in Thievery, although we have the chance to improve on its systems.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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The biggest issue I see with this, is programming AI that behaves convincingly like a thief. Having the computer be the guards isn't too complicated, just patrol and look for intruders or stuff that's amiss (open doors, stolen things), but programming an AI that sneaks around and avoids you is probably a lot tougher to do.

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