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Darkmod: Inspiration thread


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#26 Tudor

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:55 PM

Well Patches is something I've never come in contact with, but they look like displacement brushes to me, and that's the best thing Valve ever added.
I didn't think of Dromed being used in an additive way, that really is quite intuitive. It probably is even more so in the way that what the hammer BSP's do is essenially they confine a space that will be a space for you to move in that is separate from the void. And it is essentially the same as subtractive mapping, only it doesn't have a good tool for subtracting. Anybody that knows anything about hammer mapping knows that you NEVER EVER use the carve function. It simply does not work.

#27 grayman

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:02 PM

Twelve years ago I tried my hand at UnrealEd. It was in the pre-release time of The Wheel of Time, and I was trying to put together a demo map for a job on that game.

What a mess.

I'd done a lot of additive map building with Doom/Doom2 and was comfortable with it. The paradigm matched what an architect did: put stuff together.

It took a while to get used to the Unreal subtractive method. The main objects in the world didn't really exist, they just took away from things that did. Odd way of thinking about construction. I carved out a few dozen rooms, but was always fighting with the editor. The author of the editor was kind enough to respond to the first 20 bugs I sent him, but never responded to the second 20. It seemed every time I turned around the editor was crashing or whisking architecture into the ether or doing something that was just wrong. I remember wondering how the Unreal folks had had enough patience to create such wonderful maps.

After UnrealEd finally tired of me and wiped out my map (backups didn't help because the editor would just wipe the map out again) I gave up.

I still have the map, though I can't read it.

I'm sure folks who can think in a subtractive way have a ball in that world.

#28 Tudor

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:47 PM

Yes I agree on the whole ocnstruction thing, doesn't it make more sense? You are an architect, and thus you build things up!
I had such a hard time with UnrealEd I barely got anywhere with that hell of an editor, yet it's praised as one of the most powerfull editors, and is still expanded upon.
I have a hard time being logical about which method would consume the most resources too, I can see how bad hull calculations could make subtractive editing a real pain, but as it looks DromEd is really good at those calculations. But it still stands to me as digital sculpting which is such a resource heavy way to work as we want more detail from a sculpted object than a computer most likely will handle. Building things by stacking blocks seems more logical and simple, but obviousy has it's own problems with leaks and clipping hulls and trouble with complex shapes such as concave primitives.

#29 Melan

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 03:33 AM

As someone who has used Dromed a fair bit (not released anything yet tho Posted Image) I can say that without doubt there are some things which are much easier for a total newbie to quickly grasp in a subtractive editor like Dromed.


Yeah, even basic subtraction requires cutting things apart, which becomes multiple steps instead of just one. That tower would actually be even worse if you wanted to construct the insides, or heaven forbid, let the player look out through the windows. Just extremely complex under the additive design paradigm.

Another feature of TDM editing I am still leery about is that the geometry in Dromed relies on a series of successive operations. First put a hexagonal cylinder here, then put a pyramid on top of it, then hollow out a rectangular window, then put in two crossing bars... if you want to fix something, you adjust an operation so it produces a different result, or delete/add more steps. In DR, there are steps that simply can't be undone that easily, and there is geometry that would be much, much harder to alter on a later editing pass. Granted, a lot of it was a pain in Dromed, and you can have a lot more brushes to play with, so you win some and you lose some.

When I started with Dromed, any time I walked down a street I would be looking at architecture and thinking of ways to recreate certain features using subtractive techniques. After a while it becomes second nature.


Aha, so I am not the only one who has done this. Actually, I still do it, and it has made me more aware of architectural detail. On my way to work, there is even a building I have dubbed "the Dromed House" because it looks like something someone threw together using Dromed's basic brushes - there are your cubes, triangles and cylinders, but on the whole, the thing still has a very low-poly look. :laugh:
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#30 Tels

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 03:36 AM

Just as another example, to create a simple vaulted ceiling in Dromed would simply be a case of placing two intersecting subtractive cylinders laying on their side. They would automatically create the 'vaulted' centre of the ceiling. Nice and easy for a newbie, and easier and faster than using patches with DR.


Definitely, and that's the prime example where subtractive building shines.

But then you're limited to a basic vaulted ceiling, as far as I know there isn't a way to create a ribbed vaulted veiling in Dromed (the example above I assume is an object, otherwise I just gave up to easily Posted Image). So there are definite benefits to each method / editor.


I think after doing the subtract, you can do an add and add the ribbons, but I haven't touched Dromed in a long time.

In any event, the "subtractive" method has really its virtues, its a shame that DR/idTech insists that everything is additive by turning a "subtract" into a "do the subtract, then add the remaining parts". The worst part is that that doesn't even work in a lot of cases...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#31 Midnight

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 05:11 PM

Another feature of TDM editing I am still leery about is that the geometry in Dromed relies on a series of successive operations.

That reminds me of one of my favourite features in Dromed. Time!
You can send a brush forwards or backwards in time because all the operations are persistent (i.e. a subtraction doesn't create child brushes, the original brush is retained). I tried UnrealEd but can't remember if it had this feature or not but it was helpful in some cases when dealing with subtractive editing (actually it is only helpful for subtractive editing, and wouldn't be useful in DR).


Anyway, don't want this to become a Dromed vs DR thread. Posted Image

Back on topic, how thief-ish does this look? Unfortunately the website doesn't say where this is.

Posted Image

Edited by Midnight, 18 September 2010 - 05:12 PM.


#32 LEGION

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:33 PM

Very, but is that real? At least on the first 8 seconds I was sure it is from a game. Or the lighting was altered, right?

#33 Melan

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 12:51 AM

That may be a composite image. Look at how the tiles surround the columns, and how large they are in comparison with them.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#34 Midnight

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 06:46 AM

I don't know, looks pretty real to me. My guess is it was taken with a fish eye lens and then corrected fir distortion.

#35 stumpy

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 07:43 AM

I found outs whats wrong with the picture its a backdrop for a stage show, for dracula, http://www.pantomusi...la_digital.html

found it by looking at photo's of castle's on google

Edited by stumpy, 20 September 2010 - 07:48 AM.


#36 LEGION

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 10:57 AM

Yeah, "Come out for a Bite". :laugh: That British accent sounds funny to me and sometimes hard to understand, but I guess most Americans think so too...

On the bigger version itīs more obvious that itīs artificial. Still, it would be well fitting for a very darkish mission. I like the lighting though it should be darker.

#37 SneaksieDave

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:08 AM

Twelve years ago I tried my hand at UnrealEd. It was in the pre-release time of The Wheel of Time, and I was trying to put together a demo map for a job on that game.

:o !

Same here! Wow, small world. I was taken on by Glen/Legend for 2 months trying to help them with design of the 'Four Kings' map for the game. After some time I think he decided he couldn't keep so much of his team remote, so he cut a lot of us.

What a mess.

Indeed, man. In-frigging-deed. *shiver*

#38 LEGION

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 12:18 AM

From what I remember, the WoTed was far more unstable than UnrealEd (from Unreal1) that was released before. Well, Unrealed1 crashed a lot too, but they released fixes that time...

#39 nbohr1more

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:49 PM

Browsing MapCore and found this old Quake 4 map. Reminiscent of Lunaran's "Strombine" but not quite as well lit. (Almost all lights look realtime though instead of Lunaran's method...) Still, a great example of gritty texture use (and the sheer importance of good textures) and folks would double-take if you told 'em that it was made on Id Tech 4:

Thread:

http://forums.mapcor...php?f=57&t=8216

Posted Image




Posted Image
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#40 Bikerdude

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 08:58 PM

Can we open Q4 maps in DR and then save in D3/TDM format..?

#41 nbohr1more

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 09:03 PM

I think the upcoming DR 1.6 has Q4 support.

I just read further and it looks like this is still WIP since 2007???

(Author might fly a copy for interested parties though? Currently an Id employee... :laugh: )

Edited by nbohr1more, 25 March 2011 - 11:44 AM.

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#42 Melan

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 03:14 AM

A lot of stuff on Mapcore looks very good, but what I find so odd is people making all these beauties for standard FPS play. Thief and DX must have spoiled me. :ph34r:
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#43 Sotha

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 03:38 AM

A lot of stuff on Mapcore looks very good, but what I find so odd is people making all these beauties for standard FPS play. Thief and DX must have spoiled me. :ph34r:


I'm wondering the same thing. Those FPS shooters are so fast that you cannot enjoy your surroundings as you run around at 40kph shooting at things. Also in that genre you do not interact so much with the environment as in the sneaking genre where you must use the terrain to stay hidden.

Still, very pretty and impressive pictures they have there.. Might be good idea to spy around there to get ideas and new techniques.
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#44 rich_is_bored

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 06:10 AM

A modern engine, a large audience, easy to use tools, and multi-player are the draw for folks like that. They're not going to piss about with Thief because the first two are old and the third isn't very mod friendly.

It's also worth mentioning that by focusing on multiplayer games you can skirt things like story, cinematics, scripted sequences, and AI pathfinding.

#45 Springheel

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 07:50 AM

Are those custom textures? A lot of those would be useful for us...and we're in desperate need of those kinds of gritty textures.

#46 nbohr1more

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 11:34 AM

Yes, in fact that was the point of that map; to showcase custom urban-decay style textures akin to "The Slums" for HL2 or Gears of War.

I can contact him if you'd like but if you want Serpentine to do it (etc) here is his contact page:

http://www.methodonl...com/contact.htm

:)
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#47 Bikerdude

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:44 PM

I can contact him if you'd like but if you want Serpentine to do it (etc) here is his contact page: http://www.methodonl...com/contact.htm


Hello
One my fellow forum members over at the Darkmod forums started a post about your awesome looking map, so I wondered over to your website to look at the screenshots etc. I see you haven't done any work on since 2007, so would you been open to the idea of porting the map over to doom3 so it can be use in The Darkmod..?

- http://modetwo.net/d...post__p__252136

thanks

b.


Done!

#48 Bikerdude

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:32 PM

Guys, how this for cool...

Hi Yan

Thanks you for getting back to me so quickly...

"it's an old and now embarrassing map. I had no idea what I was doing back then" - Are you kidding, its a stunning looking map, some extremely impressive work there!

thanks

S.

ps. I along with others are looking forward to Rage, come join us at the darkmod forums so you can let use know about you rage map when you release etc.

Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:07:58 -0700
From: yanostretsov
Subject: Re: METHOD'S HIDEOUT
To: b1k3rdude

Hey,

Heh yea it's an old test map. It'll take me a long time to find it in the archives, plus it's an old and now embarrassing map. I had no idea what I was doing back then - just working off a gut feeling. No sense of light, no point of interest, no framing, just noise-noise. I can't wait for Rage to come out so I can show my recent stuff.

What you guys can use are the textures that I did back then. I believe I packed majority of them into this zip that comes with a design test I did to get a job at id.

You are free to use all of those textures.

-Yan


I have removed the download link as I don't want everyone and their dog overwhelming Yan's bandwith. I will Pm springs with the link so he can work on and include the textures for TDM.

#49 ungoliant

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 08:54 PM

excellent!!! i'm pretty excited to get my grubby paws on those. 1.05 release on those textures??

#50 Bikerdude

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 09:06 PM

Elo stranger..

I'm just working on the .pk4 to try and make it TDM friendly... give me an hour or so..



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