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The "external argument about exact duration" is not removed with double click. There is a setting in OS preferences for setting double-click speed, is there not? The challenge of setting the exact duration is the same for both long-press and double-click frob. Therefore, the confusion is not removed with double click. I tuned the long-press frob to be somewhere between "unintentional long-press frob" and "it being too sluggish." Early player feedback guided the current default value of 200ms -- it was originally 300ms. During more play testing, if players are having trouble, the default can be increased and tested. We need to follow the data from actual play testing. The player can adjust the tdm_frobhold_delay cvar to their liking as well. It's more likely that a player will hold frob while moving an item, because for most items, nothing different or bad happens. It's less likely that a player will unintentionally double-click frob an item during pick up, because they know that would cause them to drop it. Therefore, players are more likely to discover long-press frob to extinguish than double-click frob to extinguish, which is a good thing. We want the player to discover it (if they didn't read the manual or play the tutorial mission). Also, long-press frob is used in other games, such as Fallout 4. Getting double-click frob to extinguish to work well along with drop item would be troublesome, because there would always be a double-click delay before a single-click drop initiates. Long-press frob does not have a drop issue, because the player can long-press frob until they see the candle extinguish or quick-press frob to instantly drop it. To be clear, long-press frob also "does not change existing controls, only adds new meaning for" a longer frob press. This long-press frob proposal has already been play tested and agreed to be a good control scheme by several players. Double-click frob would need new code written, would need to be play tested, and would need to be fine tuned based on player feedback. Another rewrite of the code would be a distraction and may not bring us closer to the goal of "providing a better experience for new players as well as longtime players," especially since one has already been found and proven: long-press frob. For longtime players who are not satisfied with this new control scheme, "tdm_frobhold_delay 0" restores TDM 2.11 behavior. After 7 months of player research, code experiments, early player feedback, adjustments, rewriting code, and more player feedback, I believe long-press frob is good enough, given all of the compromises, imperfections, and its iterative design. It solves the problems stated in the proposal on the first page, and its design goals are met.

I'm thinking along the same lines. For the issue in the bugtracker here the solution is described as: To me it would make more sense to swap the two triggers for bodies. That way * "Frob" would mean "grab and hold object in front of you", and "Frob" again would mean "release" consistently for all three objects. * "Hold frob" would mean "interact" (="shoulder"/"unshoulder", "extinguish", "eat") consistently for all objects. And if "unshoulder" required "Hold frob" it would reduce the risk of unintentionally un-shouldering bodies when trying to operate doors. I may be missing something here...

I considered stating that this is false, but it's only potentially misleading. And, this description of long-press frob has indeed caused confusion. If I'm understanding wesp5 correctly, he now thinks quick-press frob always has a 200ms delay, which is not true. Ok, yeah, this is false. Actually, here, you were talking about the double-click feature and not long-press frob, I guess? Quick-press frob (single-click action) happens on frob key up. So, yes, there is a "delay", but that delay is not 200ms. Frob key down is instant. Frob key up has a delay, because it's key down and then key up. The quicker the player releases frob (key up), the sooner the quick-press frob action happens. If one considers pressing frob quickly, then there is practically no delay in quick-press frob. Long-press frob acts like an override. When the player holds frob down long enough, the special action (extinguish candle / drag body) happens instead of the regular frob action (pick up), and to be clear, the regular frob action never happens if the special action happened.

This above. It is easy to give but difficult to take away. I suggested @Daft Mugi to initially stick to a single hold-frob value of 0.2ms, 0.5ms... whatever he thinks it's best for the average player. If this value doesn't work, it can be changed in the future. If the new single value does not work either, we then can think of alternatives. By following this we are left with two options: New frob and old frob, instead of four options, one of which reads alien for new players. The new hold-frob is built on top of everything and it is out of the way. This whole change feels like an improvement and the point of controversy has to do with the default action for bodies. I suggested @Daft Mugi that all changes stay but the setting focuses on bodies only. This way we could have "Frob body action": a) Shoulder b) Grab & Drag.

I think it's time to replace the frob material stages with a shader (probably add a param to the existing ambient shader) There is more than one angle to this issue but I am mainly concerned about too many stages in materials that are somewhat taxing in terms of performance. Imagine rendering of 3K surfaces interacting with 3 lights in average and using materials with 7 stages in average. The renderer loops through every stage for every surface making it ~ 20K checks per loop. It has to happen during the depth stage, then each light and then the ambient pass resulting in 100K checks. It makes sense to try to reduce this load, especially considering that the frob stage is relatively rarely invoked and the checks happen on the backend making it hard to parallelize the computation. I am thinking adding a top-level material keyword that would apply as frob color and get passed to the ambient shader when the surface is a part of a frobable entity. I would like to hear your thoughts from the mapper/designer POV.

I've seen fun workarounds like that in other game modding as well. Years ago, maybe even a decade, some fella who was making a mod for Mount & Blade over at the Taleworlds forums revealed that he put invisible human NPCs on the backs of regular horse NPCs, then put the horse NPCs inside a horse corral he built for one of his mod's locations/scenes and then did some minor scripting, so the horses with invisible riders would wander around the corral. The end result was that it looked they're doing this of their own will, rather than an NPC rider being scripted to ride around the corral slowly. Necessity is the mother of invention. I don't know about the newest Mount & Blade game, but the first generation ones (2008-2022) apparently had some sort of hardcoded issue back in the earlier years, where if you left a horse NPC without a rider in its saddle, the horses would just stand around and wait and you couldn't get them to move around. Placing an invisible rider in their saddles suddenly made it viable again, at least for background scenes, of riderless horses wandering around, for added atmosphere. First generation M&B presumed you'd mostly be seeing horses in movement with riders, and the only horses-wandering-loosely animations and scripting were done for situations when the rider was knocked off their horse or dismounted in the middle of a battle. Hence the really odd workarounds. So, an invisible NPC trick might not be out of the question in TDM, even though you could probably still bump into it, despite its invisibility.

Here's my first FM. A small and easy mission, inspired by Thief's Den and The Bakery Job, where you must find and steal a cook's recipe book in order to save a friend from going out of business. Download: Mediafire (sk_cooks.pk4) TDM Website's Mission Page The in-game mission downloader Thanks to: The people who helped me get this far, both in the forums and on Discord. The beta testers: MirceaKitsune, Mat99, Baal, wesp5, Cambridge Spy, jaxa, grodenglaive, Acolytesix ( Per the author in the beta testing thread. ) Skaruts has given permission to the TDM Team to add Subtitles or Localization Strings to this mission. (No EFX Reverb.) If anyone from the Community or TDM team wishes to create these we will gladly test them and update the mission database.

Inn Business It's business, at an inn, over three nights. Development screenshots: Download: https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing Update 1.48 uploaded March 8th, 2014, one change: patches key rarely not being frobable in one of its possible spots Big thanks to my beta testers: Airship Ballet, Kyyrma and AluminumHaste! Development supporters of note: Sotha, Springheel and Obsttorte. Also thanks Sotha, for urinating in my mission. ;-) And thanks Kyyrma for the title screen! My appreciation to all forum/wiki contributors, without whom, this wouldn't exist. Thanks to positive commenters on my previous mission too, extra motivation helps! :-) Note this uses campaign features, what you use the first night, impacts subsequent nights. And to quote a tester, "...the level is maybe best experienced in more than one sitting". If you do pause between nights, please be sure to save, you can't begin partway through effectively. (If you accidentally start a night you already completed, just fail the kill objective to switch to another night.) If your frame rates are too low facing the cemetery, please reduce your "Object Details LOD" setting. It was designed with "AI Vision" set to "Forgiving", to be able to sneak through with minimal reactions, if you want more/less, adjust your settings accordingly. There are several random, conditional aspects, and ways of going about things, so others might have slightly different experiences. Post here if you discover hidden objectives for extra points! My condolences to loot completionists, I made a bit on the third night hard, you've got your challenge cut out for you! Speaking of which, there's a TDM bug that mission complete totals too high, here are the real amounts per night: 2026/970/202. Oh, there is something that in the U.S. would be rated PG, in case you play with kids in earshot. I hope you enjoy playing it, feel free to let me know you did, and I'm glad to respond to inquiries (like how stuff was done, nothing was scripted). (Note which night you are referring to if it's something specific.) (Please remember spoiler tags to not expose things meant to be discovered by playing.) Like so: [spoiler]secrets[/spoiler] Developed for TDM 2.01. PS: Thiefette, good news, no spiders! Springheel, if you find an optional objective you can skip...you might find it immersion breaking. Others, no undead! There are a couple other interactive critters though. :-) Edit note: Some posts below were from users of an unreleased version of TDM 2.02 which broke several things, they do not reflect regular game-play.

Snatcher and myself argued for ages to make shouldering long frob, but as this was completely blocked and the issue for me at least is consistency, I now would like to have the other special actions fit to the shouldering scheme. As you said, from the new perspective of a new default, short frob should extinguish any lights and eat any food. - Bodies: short > shoulder, long > move - Lights: short > extinugish, long > move - Consumables: short > eat, long > move - Loot and items: short > take, long > multi take (this was always different to the others) This leaves all other physical items for which short frob means moving, which could also be helpful in the sense that if you short frob something and it is moved, it has no special action.

And making it possible for the new electric lights to be broken adds a psychological problem: how will players know that they are breakable if in 99% missions they are not? Recall lootable paintings and frob-extinguishable unmoveable candles.

Changelog of 2.12 development: release212 (rev 16989-10651) * Training Mission reverted to 2.11 state, except for text changes about new controls. beta212-07 (rev 16982-10651) * Fixed save/load of turrets. * Fixed some more cases of camera clipping during force-crouched mantle (6425). * Fixed crash if player wins twice in quick succession (6489). * Added angRotate script event. * Fixed church_altar prefab (6285). beta212-06 (rev 16970-10644) * Fixed light leaks workaround dropped after save + load (post). * Force doors which connect visportal to cast shadows regardless of light flow (post). * Improved candle vs junk detection for new frob controls (6316). * Fixed player getting stuck at start of "One Step Too Far" (post). * Fixed warning on spawning atdm:env_ragdoll_tdm_spider. * Fixed wrong skin in mechanical/switches/switch_rotate_lever prefab (6479). * Fixed double slash in lady02 subtitle decls (post). * Fixed rotated versions of safe03_wall prefab (6268). * Tweaked fogging of health potion. * Fixed overbright skins for nature bushes (6478). * Fixed Grandfather_clock_victorian_01 model (6383). * Removed pause from looping sound machinery/machines/m3_loop (6384). * Fixed broken func_portals in Training Mission (4352). * Minor improvements in Saint Lucia mission. * Doubled game scripts memory limit (post). * Improved normal map of long banners (6355). beta212-05 (rev 16950-10635) * Fixed player seeing through ceiling when mantling into crouched state (6425). * Improved how frobbing works on junk items (6316). * Toggled states of player movement are saved and restored properly (6458). * Fixed back image loading optimization. * Added canCloseDoors spawnarg on AI, which allows to block closing only (6460). * Rats and spiders are non-shoulderable by default (6456). * Increased wait in screenshot_viewpos macro command (6331). * Added forest models from The Valley abandoned mission. * Fixed frobstage on sign models (6457). * Added vine arrows to training mission (4352). * Improved Merry Chest prefabs (6459). * Fixed normal map of dirt_packed_muddy (4668). * Fixed nails in door_boarded_up01 model. * Fixed attachments of atdm:fireplace_place_base (6474). * Fixed editor image of blocks_large_sandstone, rough_grey_dirty_sepia_grey_trim (6281, 6464). * Added editor image for grey_dirty_trim material. * Adjusted tooltip for auto-search bodies. beta212-04 (rev 16932-10626) * Added massive package of subtitles for AI sounds (6240, thread). * Fixes in envshot command (5796). * Added nature/dirt/ash_and_coals texture (6441). beta212-03 (rev 16902-10623) * Improved subtitles layout and location ring picture (p1 p2). * Fixed broken remote render with soft stencil shadows. * Added color buffer clears to fix remote render breaking skybox (6424). * Fixed warning generated by remote render (6424). * Fixed min_lod_bias being ignored if no other LOD settings is specified (6359). * Now changing LOD settings effects objects with min_lod_bias immediately (6359). * Fixed text & background alignment in mission lists (6337). * Fixed gaps in chandelier models (6433). * Added missing editor texture for carpet/runners/ornate_red_black03_end (6435). * Further expansion of listRenderLightDefs and listLightEntityDefs commands. beta212-02 (rev 16889-10613) * Fixed underwater rendering due to missing doublevision shader (post). * Exclude more lights from the new light portal flow optimizations (5172, 6321). * black_matt is now fully black, no tiny green bias (post). * Fixed lockpick interruption when mouse cursor switches between door and handle. * Extended listRenderLightDefs and listLightEntityDefs commands. * Fixed church_altar.pfb (6285). * Added window01_curtains01.lwo in separate parts (6356). * tdm_open_doors now opens locked doors too. * Fixed rare case of getting NaN in spline mover. * Added r_skipEntities cvar, similar to "filter entities" in DR. * Added editor spawnargs for volumetric light properties (6322). * Fixed radius override and added position override for script-based stims. * Fixed warnings with wrong virtual function overrides. beta212-01 (rev 16879-10584) * Fixed player falling through elevator when shouldering a body (6259). * Rebalanced volume of all player footsteps (6348). * Fixed weird animation when mixing drawn bow and main menu (2758). * Fixed all kind of issues with bc_teatray material. * Added alternative frob controls mode tdm_holdfrob_drag_all_entities for dragging on hold. * Fixed non-actor entities always getting full splash damage. * Hide console before screenshot with screenshot_viewport command (6331). * Added tdm_subtitles_ring cvar to disable subtitles location ring. * Added mission.cfg as a temporary way for mission to override non-archived cvars (5453). * Cvars "pm_lean_*" are no longer archived (6320). * Removed some cvar overrides from atdm:player_base. * CFrobLock now supports script events: Lock, Unlock, ToggleLock, IsLocked, IsPickable (6329). * Simplified flee script event, supported fleeing from non-actor entity and fleeFromPoint. * Fixed crash on some non-standard cases of flinderize. * Can set spawnarg "douse 0" on damageDef to not extinguish lights from splash damage. * Added setFrobMaster script event. * Added script-based stim type, which triggers only when stimEmit script event is called. * Added on/off script events to func_emitter entity. * Added setSmoke script event to change particle decl for a func_smoke. * Added hasInvItem script event to check if player has some item. * Added launchGuided script event to start guided projectiles. * Added getInterceptTime script event for shooting projectile and running target. * Added "bounce_sound_min|max_velocity" spawnargs to control projectile bounce sounds. * Added "postbounce_*" spawnargs to change projectile properties after bounce. * Fixes to moor guard ragdoll (6345). * Fixed wench AI sounds (6284). * Added new experimental entityDef for an automatic turret. * Official missions no longer pretend to be part of 3-mission campaign (6338). * Removed AI PAIN messages console spam. * Removed excessive "s_volume 0" from base loot entityDefs (6346). * Replaced symbol on the proguard's belt. * Default value of com_maxfps increased from 144 to 300. * Improved idEntityPtr, fixed some warnings. dev16854-10518 * High mantle animation has become much faster (6343). * Crouching while on ladder/rope now causes player to slide instantly. * Added "forceShadowBehindOpaque" hack to workaround shadow leaks in old missions (5172). * Fixed and revised underwater "double vision" effect (6300). * Add scratch images have alpha = 1, which fixes some mirror materials (6300). * Added warning if material output color depends on input alpha, fixed it in core assets (6340). * Support several independent user addon scripts (6336). * Fixed missing headbob and footsteps at very high FPS (4696). * Fixed player hanging mid-air in a jump at very high FPS (6333). * Don't crash if player's head does not exist (6326). * Added "fade in fast" options for frobhelper (6342). * Removed "show tooltips" option, now it is always on (6344). * Added default spawnarg values to "text" debug entityDef (6325). * Fixed some uninitialized values, float overflows and NaNs across the code. * Reorganized covered furniture models from Seeking Lady Leicester (6289). dev16842-10488 * Major changes in frob/use controls: holding frob does different thing now (6316, thread). * Fixed some electric lights not spawning. * It is no longer necessary to specify extension to reference PNG image. * Added cvar tdm_show_viewpos and command screenshot_viewpos (6331). * Fixed hanging when light is moved through a plane with many visportals (3815, thread). * Fixed multipage readables stuck on empty page, improved page flipping (6313). * Fixed WAV sounds playing in main menu, all sounds are streaming now (6330). * Fixed light leaks along scissor rectangle boundary with soft stencil shadows (thread). * Better subtitles location visualization (6264). * Changed position of subtitle blocks and subtitle font (6264). * Internal refactoring of idImage class (6300). * Fixed rare bug in renderworld raycasting... might happen with particle collisions. * Fixed warnings in newspaper_bridgeport0X core readable GUI (6245). * Added vec4 GUI keyword (6164). * Renamed pm_lean_toggle cvar to tdm_toggle_lean. * Improved "head bob" and "mantle roll" settings in main menu. * Updated FFmpeg to 4.4.4 (6314). Known issues: * Various problems after image refactoring: underwater, mirrors, etc. dev16829-10455 * Allowed to mantle while carrying/manipulating an object (5892, thread). * Allowed to change weapon while mantling or on rope/ladder (6319). * Several leaning improvements (6320, thread). * Parallel shadow-casting lights are deprecated, use parallelSky instead (6306). * Added many menu settings for autoloot body, blackjack helper, and other (6311). * Deleted option for autolooting bodies with one item per frob, added menu setting (6257). * Added cvar to modify all head bobbing settings (6310). * Fixed some corner cases with multiloot (6270). * Fixed frob helper's "always visible" mode (6318). * New&fixed versions of atdm:lamp_electric_square_3_lit_unattached (6315). * Fixed UV map on Stove models (6312). * Reworked r_showPrimitives + deleted code for rendering from CPU buffers. * Shortened name of end-mission autosaves (6294). * Consistent names of various arrows. Known issues: * Some electric lights don't spawn. dev16818-10434 * Fixed projectiles flying through player and enemies sometimes (6292). * Lights with noshadows spawnarg pass through walls again (5172). * Disabled portal flow culling optimization for parallel lights (5172, 6306). * Faster light-entity interactions matching if light is noshadows due to spawnarg (6296). * Compression of images to DXT1/3/5 is done in software (6300). * Cleaned up rounding math routines (6300). * r_showportals 2 is easier to understand now * Changed rules for getting start areas of parallelSky light (6306). dev16814-10408 * Optimized portal flow culling for shadowing lights (5172). * Extended dmap diagnostics to info_portalSettings, improved editor descriptions (6224). * Added test commands: tdm_open_doors and tdm_close_doors. * Minor adjustments to ear-cutting algorithm in dmap. * Minor refactoring in image compression code (6300). dev16809-10394 * r_shadowMapSinglePass is enabled by default now. * Fixed lack of shadows in volumetric lights under r_shadowMapSinglePass (6271). * Fixed interaction rendering on materials with polygonOffset (5868). * Optimized code for finding light-entity interactions on large maps (6296). * Optimized moving shadowing lights: don't create interactions in unreachable areas (5172). * More refactoring in backend: tonemap shader (6271). * Added more covered furniture models (6289). * Added wall models from Seeking Lady Leicester (6293). Known issues: * Some noshadows lights no longer pass through walls. dev16801-10370 * Supported -durationExtend for inline subtitles (6262). * Added blue noise dithering to tonemap shader, which fixed color banding of fog (6271). * Optimized away unnecessary render copy under "useNewRenderPasses 1" (6271). * Refactored blend and fog lights into new backend architecture. For troubleshooting, reduce cvar useNewRenderPasses to 1 or 0 (6271). * Added 30 case to max FPS selection in settings menu. dev16792-10357 * Fixed particles bound to animated joints (6099). * idVec3 is no longer initialized to zero by default (6280). * Integrated Address Sanitizer tool and fixed a few found bugs (6280). dev16789-10349 * Deleted old backend completely + some cleaning (6271). * Fixed map icon wrong name (thread). * Now light entities support noPortalFog spawnarg (6282). * Support fonts aspect ratio correction (6283). * Fixed playerstart customization (thread). * Refactored "render pass" part into new backend architecture. For troubleshooting, try cvar "useNewRenderPasses 0". Also "textures/particles/blacksmokepuff" now works (6271) * Now arithmetic expressions in materials support min/max functions (6271). * Minor initialization cleanup (6280). dev16785-10319 * "r_shadowMapSinglePass 1" now respects noselfshadows flag (6271). * Continued refactoring in shadow maps and render-pass shaders (6271). dev16783-10307 * Backported new rendering backend to uniforms, should work like the old one now (6271). * "Auto" lockpicking difficulty now unlocks pin from after one cycle (6256). * Added "auto-search bodies" feature under tdm_autosearch_bodies cvar (6257). * Added r_shadowMapAlphaTested cvar for single-pass shadow maps (6271). dev16781-10289 * Added first version of direction and volume cues to subtitles (6264). * Allow subtitles to extend duration of sound sample (6262). * Improved slot allocation algorithm for subtitles, a subtitle no longer changes slot (6264). * Fixed bug that stereo sample plays for 2x duration due to length confusion. * Upgraded libpng and rebuilt third-party packages. * Internal fixes of depth bounds test asserts. dev16778-10275 * Allow limited mantling with a shouldered body (5892). * Fixed toggle creep and improved settings layout in the menu (6242). * Fixed bounding boxes of animated entities and particles, enabled r_useEntityScissors by default (6099). * Trigger call_on_exit before call_on_entry when switching locations. * Don't expand bounds of surfaces with turbulent deform (5990). * Removed "gui" spawnarg on GUI message to avoid first frame (6117). Known issues: * Particles bounds to animated joints broken. Changelog of earlier versions can be found here. Source: 2.12 beta testing thread

Updated patch along with new test builds. Windows: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13lQig7Yzfc_jovU2zZklxLV1QOKAjkXe/view?usp=sharing Linux/Ubuntu: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j7DoWBKuBAFdVH2Y-2LcYsgdtJNBabmn/view?usp=sharing @stgatilov Could you please update test-frob-daftmugi? Changes in update: Bodies can be dragged instantly by holding frob and moving the mouse. Food can be eaten the same way as extinguishing a candle. (Pending) Add menu setting "Hold Frob to Use", with options: Quick (200ms) - short delay before use Delayed (400ms) - long delay before use TDM original Current design: Frob Pick up body and shoulder it (carry it) / Drop body Pick up candle/lantern and carry it / Drop candle/lantern Pick up food and carry it / Drop food Pick up an item and carry it / Drop item Hold frob (for special action) Drag body or body limbs Pinch out candle (also, pinch out candle while carrying it) Toggle lantern off/on (also, toggle lantern while carrying it) Eat food (also, eat food while carrying it) Hold frob and move mouse to instantly drag body. Addressed concerns from initial design to current design: Changed the candle behavior to pick up on frob and extinguish on held frob. Added @AluminumHaste's suggestion to allow un-shouldering a body on frob. Added @nbohr1more's suggestion to allow extinguishing a candle while holding it. Added @Skaruts's suggestion to allow instant dragging of bodies on mouse move. Tried to address @snatcher's suggestion of making the extinguish candle delay 500ms instead of 200ms. There's a planned menu setting to set it to "Quick" (200ms) or "Delayed" (400ms). Also, I hope the "instant" body dragging will work well for you. I think this is finally in a good place. It's evolved quite a lot since its initial design. I've tried to address as many concerns and suggestions as I could. Thank you everyone who gave feedback! It's much appreciated!

Changelog of 2.12 development: release212 (rev 16989-10651) * Training Mission reverted to 2.11 state, except for text changes about new controls. beta212-07 (rev 16982-10651) * Fixed save/load of turrets. * Fixed some more cases of camera clipping during force-crouched mantle (6425). * Fixed crash if player wins twice in quick succession (6489). * Added angRotate script event. * Fixed church_altar prefab (6285). beta212-06 (rev 16970-10644) * Fixed light leaks workaround dropped after save + load (post). * Force doors which connect visportal to cast shadows regardless of light flow (post). * Improved candle vs junk detection for new frob controls (6316). * Fixed player getting stuck at start of "One Step Too Far" (post). * Fixed warning on spawning atdm:env_ragdoll_tdm_spider. * Fixed wrong skin in mechanical/switches/switch_rotate_lever prefab (6479). * Fixed double slash in lady02 subtitle decls (post). * Fixed rotated versions of safe03_wall prefab (6268). * Tweaked fogging of health potion. * Fixed overbright skins for nature bushes (6478). * Fixed Grandfather_clock_victorian_01 model (6383). * Removed pause from looping sound machinery/machines/m3_loop (6384). * Fixed broken func_portals in Training Mission (4352). * Minor improvements in Saint Lucia mission. * Doubled game scripts memory limit (post). * Improved normal map of long banners (6355). beta212-05 (rev 16950-10635) * Fixed player seeing through ceiling when mantling into crouched state (6425). * Improved how frobbing works on junk items (6316). * Toggled states of player movement are saved and restored properly (6458). * Fixed back image loading optimization. * Added canCloseDoors spawnarg on AI, which allows to block closing only (6460). * Rats and spiders are non-shoulderable by default (6456). * Increased wait in screenshot_viewpos macro command (6331). * Added forest models from The Valley abandoned mission. * Fixed frobstage on sign models (6457). * Added vine arrows to training mission (4352). * Improved Merry Chest prefabs (6459). * Fixed normal map of dirt_packed_muddy (4668). * Fixed nails in door_boarded_up01 model. * Fixed attachments of atdm:fireplace_place_base (6474). * Fixed editor image of blocks_large_sandstone, rough_grey_dirty_sepia_grey_trim (6281, 6464). * Added editor image for grey_dirty_trim material. * Adjusted tooltip for auto-search bodies. beta212-04 (rev 16932-10626) * Added massive package of subtitles for AI sounds (6240, thread). * Fixes in envshot command (5796). * Added nature/dirt/ash_and_coals texture (6441). beta212-03 (rev 16902-10623) * Improved subtitles layout and location ring picture (p1 p2). * Fixed broken remote render with soft stencil shadows. * Added color buffer clears to fix remote render breaking skybox (6424). * Fixed warning generated by remote render (6424). * Fixed min_lod_bias being ignored if no other LOD settings is specified (6359). * Now changing LOD settings effects objects with min_lod_bias immediately (6359). * Fixed text & background alignment in mission lists (6337). * Fixed gaps in chandelier models (6433). * Added missing editor texture for carpet/runners/ornate_red_black03_end (6435). * Further expansion of listRenderLightDefs and listLightEntityDefs commands. beta212-02 (rev 16889-10613) * Fixed underwater rendering due to missing doublevision shader (post). * Exclude more lights from the new light portal flow optimizations (5172, 6321). * black_matt is now fully black, no tiny green bias (post). * Fixed lockpick interruption when mouse cursor switches between door and handle. * Extended listRenderLightDefs and listLightEntityDefs commands. * Fixed church_altar.pfb (6285). * Added window01_curtains01.lwo in separate parts (6356). * tdm_open_doors now opens locked doors too. * Fixed rare case of getting NaN in spline mover. * Added r_skipEntities cvar, similar to "filter entities" in DR. * Added editor spawnargs for volumetric light properties (6322). * Fixed radius override and added position override for script-based stims. * Fixed warnings with wrong virtual function overrides. beta212-01 (rev 16879-10584) * Fixed player falling through elevator when shouldering a body (6259). * Rebalanced volume of all player footsteps (6348). * Fixed weird animation when mixing drawn bow and main menu (2758). * Fixed all kind of issues with bc_teatray material. * Added alternative frob controls mode tdm_holdfrob_drag_all_entities for dragging on hold. * Fixed non-actor entities always getting full splash damage. * Hide console before screenshot with screenshot_viewport command (6331). * Added tdm_subtitles_ring cvar to disable subtitles location ring. * Added mission.cfg as a temporary way for mission to override non-archived cvars (5453). * Cvars "pm_lean_*" are no longer archived (6320). * Removed some cvar overrides from atdm:player_base. * CFrobLock now supports script events: Lock, Unlock, ToggleLock, IsLocked, IsPickable (6329). * Simplified flee script event, supported fleeing from non-actor entity and fleeFromPoint. * Fixed crash on some non-standard cases of flinderize. * Can set spawnarg "douse 0" on damageDef to not extinguish lights from splash damage. * Added setFrobMaster script event. * Added script-based stim type, which triggers only when stimEmit script event is called. * Added on/off script events to func_emitter entity. * Added setSmoke script event to change particle decl for a func_smoke. * Added hasInvItem script event to check if player has some item. * Added launchGuided script event to start guided projectiles. * Added getInterceptTime script event for shooting projectile and running target. * Added "bounce_sound_min|max_velocity" spawnargs to control projectile bounce sounds. * Added "postbounce_*" spawnargs to change projectile properties after bounce. * Fixes to moor guard ragdoll (6345). * Fixed wench AI sounds (6284). * Added new experimental entityDef for an automatic turret. * Official missions no longer pretend to be part of 3-mission campaign (6338). * Removed AI PAIN messages console spam. * Removed excessive "s_volume 0" from base loot entityDefs (6346). * Replaced symbol on the proguard's belt. * Default value of com_maxfps increased from 144 to 300. * Improved idEntityPtr, fixed some warnings. dev16854-10518 * High mantle animation has become much faster (6343). * Crouching while on ladder/rope now causes player to slide instantly. * Added "forceShadowBehindOpaque" hack to workaround shadow leaks in old missions (5172). * Fixed and revised underwater "double vision" effect (6300). * Add scratch images have alpha = 1, which fixes some mirror materials (6300). * Added warning if material output color depends on input alpha, fixed it in core assets (6340). * Support several independent user addon scripts (6336). * Fixed missing headbob and footsteps at very high FPS (4696). * Fixed player hanging mid-air in a jump at very high FPS (6333). * Don't crash if player's head does not exist (6326). * Added "fade in fast" options for frobhelper (6342). * Removed "show tooltips" option, now it is always on (6344). * Added default spawnarg values to "text" debug entityDef (6325). * Fixed some uninitialized values, float overflows and NaNs across the code. * Reorganized covered furniture models from Seeking Lady Leicester (6289). dev16842-10488 * Major changes in frob/use controls: holding frob does different thing now (6316, thread). * Fixed some electric lights not spawning. * It is no longer necessary to specify extension to reference PNG image. * Added cvar tdm_show_viewpos and command screenshot_viewpos (6331). * Fixed hanging when light is moved through a plane with many visportals (3815, thread). * Fixed multipage readables stuck on empty page, improved page flipping (6313). * Fixed WAV sounds playing in main menu, all sounds are streaming now (6330). * Fixed light leaks along scissor rectangle boundary with soft stencil shadows (thread). * Better subtitles location visualization (6264). * Changed position of subtitle blocks and subtitle font (6264). * Internal refactoring of idImage class (6300). * Fixed rare bug in renderworld raycasting... might happen with particle collisions. * Fixed warnings in newspaper_bridgeport0X core readable GUI (6245). * Added vec4 GUI keyword (6164). * Renamed pm_lean_toggle cvar to tdm_toggle_lean. * Improved "head bob" and "mantle roll" settings in main menu. * Updated FFmpeg to 4.4.4 (6314). Known issues: * Various problems after image refactoring: underwater, mirrors, etc. dev16829-10455 * Allowed to mantle while carrying/manipulating an object (5892, thread). * Allowed to change weapon while mantling or on rope/ladder (6319). * Several leaning improvements (6320, thread). * Parallel shadow-casting lights are deprecated, use parallelSky instead (6306). * Added many menu settings for autoloot body, blackjack helper, and other (6311). * Deleted option for autolooting bodies with one item per frob, added menu setting (6257). * Added cvar to modify all head bobbing settings (6310). * Fixed some corner cases with multiloot (6270). * Fixed frob helper's "always visible" mode (6318). * New&fixed versions of atdm:lamp_electric_square_3_lit_unattached (6315). * Fixed UV map on Stove models (6312). * Reworked r_showPrimitives + deleted code for rendering from CPU buffers. * Shortened name of end-mission autosaves (6294). * Consistent names of various arrows. Known issues: * Some electric lights don't spawn. dev16818-10434 * Fixed projectiles flying through player and enemies sometimes (6292). * Lights with noshadows spawnarg pass through walls again (5172). * Disabled portal flow culling optimization for parallel lights (5172, 6306). * Faster light-entity interactions matching if light is noshadows due to spawnarg (6296). * Compression of images to DXT1/3/5 is done in software (6300). * Cleaned up rounding math routines (6300). * r_showportals 2 is easier to understand now * Changed rules for getting start areas of parallelSky light (6306). dev16814-10408 * Optimized portal flow culling for shadowing lights (5172). * Extended dmap diagnostics to info_portalSettings, improved editor descriptions (6224). * Added test commands: tdm_open_doors and tdm_close_doors. * Minor adjustments to ear-cutting algorithm in dmap. * Minor refactoring in image compression code (6300). dev16809-10394 * r_shadowMapSinglePass is enabled by default now. * Fixed lack of shadows in volumetric lights under r_shadowMapSinglePass (6271). * Fixed interaction rendering on materials with polygonOffset (5868). * Optimized code for finding light-entity interactions on large maps (6296). * Optimized moving shadowing lights: don't create interactions in unreachable areas (5172). * More refactoring in backend: tonemap shader (6271). * Added more covered furniture models (6289). * Added wall models from Seeking Lady Leicester (6293). Known issues: * Some noshadows lights no longer pass through walls. dev16801-10370 * Supported -durationExtend for inline subtitles (6262). * Added blue noise dithering to tonemap shader, which fixed color banding of fog (6271). * Optimized away unnecessary render copy under "useNewRenderPasses 1" (6271). * Refactored blend and fog lights into new backend architecture. For troubleshooting, reduce cvar useNewRenderPasses to 1 or 0 (6271). * Added 30 case to max FPS selection in settings menu. dev16792-10357 * Fixed particles bound to animated joints (6099). * idVec3 is no longer initialized to zero by default (6280). * Integrated Address Sanitizer tool and fixed a few found bugs (6280). dev16789-10349 * Deleted old backend completely + some cleaning (6271). * Fixed map icon wrong name (thread). * Now light entities support noPortalFog spawnarg (6282). * Support fonts aspect ratio correction (6283). * Fixed playerstart customization (thread). * Refactored "render pass" part into new backend architecture. For troubleshooting, try cvar "useNewRenderPasses 0". Also "textures/particles/blacksmokepuff" now works (6271) * Now arithmetic expressions in materials support min/max functions (6271). * Minor initialization cleanup (6280). dev16785-10319 * "r_shadowMapSinglePass 1" now respects noselfshadows flag (6271). * Continued refactoring in shadow maps and render-pass shaders (6271). dev16783-10307 * Backported new rendering backend to uniforms, should work like the old one now (6271). * "Auto" lockpicking difficulty now unlocks pin from after one cycle (6256). * Added "auto-search bodies" feature under tdm_autosearch_bodies cvar (6257). * Added r_shadowMapAlphaTested cvar for single-pass shadow maps (6271). dev16781-10289 * Added first version of direction and volume cues to subtitles (6264). * Allow subtitles to extend duration of sound sample (6262). * Improved slot allocation algorithm for subtitles, a subtitle no longer changes slot (6264). * Fixed bug that stereo sample plays for 2x duration due to length confusion. * Upgraded libpng and rebuilt third-party packages. * Internal fixes of depth bounds test asserts. dev16778-10275 * Allow limited mantling with a shouldered body (5892). * Fixed toggle creep and improved settings layout in the menu (6242). * Fixed bounding boxes of animated entities and particles, enabled r_useEntityScissors by default (6099). * Trigger call_on_exit before call_on_entry when switching locations. * Don't expand bounds of surfaces with turbulent deform (5990). * Removed "gui" spawnarg on GUI message to avoid first frame (6117). Known issues: * Particles bounds to animated joints broken. Changelog of earlier versions can be found here.

Ah, pity I wasn't reading the forums back in February. I'm fond of that game, along with Bugbear's other early title, Rally Trophy. I was never too good at FlatOut, but it was always a hoot to play.

Well, I hate to be that guy, but as a researcher who has done tons of subjective tests with big subject groups, I would like to jokingly comment that the used test procedure does not allow the conclusion that people prefer short press frob for shouldering. What we can conclude from this poll is that people prefer short press frob for shouldering as well as various other actions AND long press frob for alternative actions in favor of short press frob for various actions as well as double-press frob for alternative actions including shouldering. This is the classic error of modifying too many determining factors between test cases and attributing the results to only one of the determining factors. However, I don't question that there is strong agreement with making shouldering the primary / short-press frob action. This has been criticism of TDM for a long time. We've had people coming to the forum asking for shouldering over and over again. So I concur to change this and set it as the new default even.

When talking about a possible libre version of TDM (https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22346-libre-version-of-tdm/) it seems we believe all media/gamedata included in TDM is licensed CC-BY-NC-SA. I am not familiar with how the process of adding new media/gamedata works today; I have seen files uploaded to the bugtracker which developers then commit to SVN, but I don't know if there are other ways. It may be a good idea to implement a process that when new components (media/gamedata included in TDM) are added, the contributor is asked to be explicit about the license (a choice which may defaults to their previous preference, for usability). It won't fix the past, but it may help in the future. This will make it easy for contributors to add future data under a more permissive license if they choose. Libre media can be added and its license can be tracked, rather than assumed to be CC-BY-NC-SA. I suggest looking at how Wikimedia Commons has implemented this: the contributor state the source and license at the time the data is uploaded. This can be done either by providing urls or by saying "It's my work and I choose this licsense". The first step could be to add a way to keep track of each filepath in SVN, author, license, sources. Start by setting the value for each file's license to "(default/legacy CC-BY-NC-SA)". Possible implementations for a user interface for new additions are: * Use our own wiki, which runs Mediawiki (same as Wikimedia Commons). I see several benefits of this, but we also need a way to accept uploads of batches, not just single files. * Look at how other open source projects have solved this. There may be more appropriate solutions available. ... but I'll leave the implementation open. Suggestions are very welcome! If the author of each file already in SVN can be tracked, then it may be possible that the author is willing to give a blanket permission for all their past files in one statement, and all their files in SVN can be updated in one commit. A productive contributor willing to release some of their work under a more permissive license could make a big change. If Dark Radiant would support letting mappers search media/gamedata by license (does it already?), it would make it easier for mappers to create a completely libre mission, which would help facilitate a TDM-libre release. If I understand things correctly. This post does not address all details and it may contain misunderstandings or assumptions, but it's a start. Also relevant: * Is there a compiled and maintained list of recommended or deprecated resources for mappers to use? * https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20311-external-art-assets-licensing/

Author Note: Thank you for downloading and playing the sequel to The Accountant 1: Thieves and Heirs this FM picks up right from where we left off in accountant 1. This is the second part in my three part series following Corbin on his journey to discover who and what the accountant is. This mission is a little different to what you may expect from a Thief mission but still has plenty of classic Thief moments as well. This is the largest mission I have ever built with an average play through lasting between 2 - 3 hours. A few aspects in game are different to what you may expect as well and those are: - Candles are pinchable (frob to put out instead of pickup) - Food has been hot fixed so now it heals you for 10 health points when eaten - Doors that are missing handles means you cannot enter that room/building - All secrets can be found before you enter the sewers As a little piece of fun trivia there is a small cameo in my mission from a very special guest. He is a longtime voice actor in the industry and you may know him from roles such as Deckard Cain in Diablo, Captain Price in Call of Duty, Elder Lyons in Fallout 3, or just about any Nordic character in Skyrim. In addition to all of the fantastic people who have helped me along the way I have personally spent a lot of time, effort and energy devoted to bringing this out to you all so I hope you can enjoy the fruits of my labor and have fun! File size: 358 mb

This is what you said: 1) That while playing you found you could not extinguish moveable lights 2) This was because of the need to use the hold frob and did not remember this I know you wouldn’t make a misleading statement about the implementation of the hold frob mechanic as a pretext to bring up your issues with the consistency with the controls, so I assume you forgot the original controls of the game or your custom keybinding for “use inv item” reset when you updated the game or something. At this point in the thread I am not going to recommend to you that you use an optional mechanic that you don’t like. There is a version of the training mission in development which tutorializes the hold frob mechanic - though eventually it would be good to develop a tutorial mission that is less freeeform than the training mission.

I just played the new beta mission and wondered why I couldn't extinguish moveable lights as I had already forgotten that I need to use hold-frob in 2.12. This is completely counterintuitive to shouldering bodies and there is no global information about this, so please make it so that hold-frobing takes a moveable light and short frobing extinguishes it! This would also be more consistent to the static lights. The same should be done for consumables too: short frob eat, long frob pick up...

Hello all. I have a hopefully easy question. I just can't seem to search it properly. I want the player to select an item in the inventory (not drop to hands) and then USE (frob and then use key) on an object in the map. But, the frob should only happen when that object is selected in the inventory and not just general frob. If I am confusing this with triggering, I apologize. Is there an example in an exiting map that I can study that does this type of thing? I don't recall from any maps about this. Or, what is the general way to do this? The intent is to have the player find this inventory item and then go to various objects in the map and USE this item on the map objects. Advice? Thanks Clint

As someone who has been playing TDM since it went standalone all those years ago, I was skeptical about the new frob until I gave it a try to see how it's handled in 2.12. It's really intuitive. Yeah, old time players are used to the old frob + use mechanic, and there was nothing wrong or confusing about it IMO, but the new frob is so easy to get into there should be no problem for old-timers. So, from my perspective, it's a good change. It takes away nothing from the players and gives them an easy-to-get-into mechanic that is simple to use. If such a small, simple change brings in more players, even better.

Overall, your pack seems almost perfect to me!) Maybe it would be possible to add a frob outline like in the unofficial patch. I only play with the Steam Deck, and using the console on it is very difficult. After all, each button on it needs to be configured separately. Maybe if someone suggests what I can directly configure in the config, it will completely solve my problem. I haven't played many missions yet, and the ones I remember are the two standard ones and "No Honor Among Thieves." There are a lot of items in these missions. Adding new skills has become frustrating for me because it takes a long time to find the right item in my inventory, and this happens every time. I also wanted to say that I haven't found a proper use for the OBSERVATION, COMBINATION, DISTRACTION, and ALTERATION skills. I play on the highest difficulty and don't feel like it's too hard for me, and all these skills, in my understanding, are designed to simplify the gameplay. In theory, MANIPULATION should also be on this list, but I found a use for it.) But no matter where or how I use OBSERVATION, I always see blackness. Maybe it depends on the map? The main problem is still the inventory. I would like it to have fewer unused items.) I even throw away picked up books and scrolls after reading them to keep them from cluttering up my inventory. I also installed the original Thief games, and it feels like they have a lot fewer items. That's how it is.

It occurred to me that, by now, this package goes well beyond mere bugfixes by including a range of gameplay changes (i.e. adding the ability to frob-extinguish oil candles, which isn't a bug that was patched). Maybe players would have a better idea of what this package does if it had a more fitting name, similar to how Snatcher calls his work a modpack? In other communities the term "unofficial patch" is typically associated with collections of community fixes to bugs that exist in the core game and were never addressed by the devs. Most players would therefore expect an "unofficial patch" to provide them the same experience as originally intended by the devs, but without technical problems.

I agree, and you might become happy in 2.13. My thinking was that you could select "Thief-Style" (new Daft-Mugi control scheme) or "TDM-Style" (old control scheme, but with long-frob shortcut for frob + use). No promises, however. The proposed change has to be accepted by more than one team member after all.